TERFs crash London Pride

Being same-sex attracted is perfectly normal behaviour, and certainly not confined to man. It's a failure of society that it was seen as abnormal and persecuted for so many decades/centuries. Being gay doesn't require extensive surgery and dangerous hormone treatment. Being gay doesn't involve turning yourself into something that, biologically, you are not. Being gay doesn't require you to demand that other people change their whole understanding of biology, or that a group of people that doesn't include you should budge up to let you in.

It's a totally false equivalence.

Homosexual rights have been achieved. There's no more to be done in the legal sense, and society's attitudes will realign to match in due course. Stonewall has succeeded in its every goal.

So what is it to do now, all these people making their living as Stonewall employees, all that grant funding and support? Better find another group to latch on to. OK, job done. And if it should so happen that the organisation's new goals are in conflict with the interests of one of its original supported groups - the actual first letter of the LGB etc. - well who cares, they're only women.
 
Darat said:
Well Rolfe wasn't
Click to expand...

I believe she basically was. She said upthread:

But the concern is not that lesbian girls socialise together, but that gender-nonconforming girls (many of whom are probably lesbian) are being led to believe that they're actually boys
Click to expand...

She's expressed the same idea in previous threads regarding her worries about girls who would be "butch presenting lesbians" (I think that was the exact phrase she used.)

but that aside I don't have any friends these days that are trans and only know a few in my wider social circle. Have of course talked to many, and socialised with many more and had a couple of friends over the last 35 years or so that were trans.

My point was that butch lesbians exist as much as ever, as an aside I do think there has been a perception of "feminisation" of the "butch" lesbian caused by wider social changes.
Click to expand...

If, say 60% or more of the young adult females who would have been proud "bull dykes" at 25 are now quite often being socially channeled into seeing themselves as men in women's bodies and undergoing SR meds and surgery, there could be far fewer 23 year old "butch lesbians" out there now, and you might not notice by virtue of your social circle drawing in the relatively few who remain.

But without good data, we're all just guessing about this stuff.
 
The way I'm seeing this is, suppose this is an exaggeration:

Rolfe said:
The issue at hand is the very large numbers of adolescent girls and very young women who are now heading down this route, and of course the increasing numbers who are trying to row back and expressing regret.
Click to expand...

Where are all the young butch lesbians these days? Gone to transmen every one. To the point where there are no role models for the even younger ones.
Click to expand...

That has to be something of an exaggeration. But what if it's 50% correct? Or 30%? That's still a pretty huge deal.
 
As I said, I'm repeating the concerns I'm hearing from the lesbian community. Maybe they're all imagining it.
 
kellyb said:
That has to be something of an exaggeration. But what if it's 50% correct? Or 30%? That's still a pretty huge deal.
Click to expand...


What, it's an exaggeration to say that increasing numbers are trying to detransition and are expressing regret? I have no idea what proportion it is, but it's absolutely true that numbers are increasing. In the past detransitioning was almost unheard-of. People who had gone through all that very seldom went back. Now, there are loads of detransitioning videos on YouTube, and blogs and so on. The AGP trans lobby is fighting tooth and nail to stop people talking about this, and indeed about ROGD itself, because they see it as destroying their narrative about having been born in the wrong body.
 
Rolfe said:
What, it's an exaggeration to say that increasing numbers are trying to detransition and are expressing regret? I have no idea what proportion it is, but it's absolutely true that numbers are increasing. In the past detransitioning was almost unheard-of. People who had gone through all that very seldom went back. Now, there are loads of detransitioning videos on YouTube, and blogs and so on. The AGP trans lobby is fighting tooth and nail to stop people talking about this, and indeed about ROGD itself, because they see it as destroying their narrative about having been born in the wrong body.
Click to expand...

It was the "Where are all the young butch lesbians these days? Gone to transmen every one" part I was thinking must be an exaggeration.

I still wish there was actual good data out there about this stuff either way. Counting blogs and youtube videos is...not a good way of trying to suss out whatever sort of "epidemiological" type trend might exist.
 
Darat said:
Perhaps you aren't quite as connected to the "lesbian community" as you think you are?
Click to expand...

My own sense is that "the lesbian community" has undergone a pretty intense bifrucation into a trans-supportive crowd and a trans-critical crowd over the last 5 years or so.
 
kellyb said:
It was the "Where are all the young butch lesbians these days? Gone to transmen every one" part I was thinking must be an exaggeration.

I still wish there was actual good data out there about this stuff either way. Counting blogs and youtube videos is...not a good way of trying to suss out whatever sort of "epidemiological" type trend might exist.
Click to expand...


Oh, sorry, I thought the hyperbole was obvious. The song. "Where have all the flowers gone."
 
Rolfe said:
Oh, sorry, I thought the hyperbole was obvious. The song. "Where have all the flowers gone."
Click to expand...

Long time passing. :)

I think it's more likely than not that the 45X reported increase is a mix of:

1) the "background incidence" of people on the extreme end of gender atypicality now having access to therapy and SR meds/surgery - the people who would have been the "persisters" in early studies of people coming to gender clinics - these are the people for whom the "emerging orthodoxy" is a godsend, for real

2) those who developed dysphoria through "social contagion", probably similar to anorexia nervosa

3) "tomboy" lesbians perceiving themselves as boys/men now because of a change in environment/culture relative to 15 years ago.

It seems like people are becoming increasingly fanatical in caring about those in group 1, or alternately, people in groups 2 and 3. Remaining non-fanatical in caring about all three groups equally really is tricky.
 
The attitude of the AGP trans lobby to the detransitioning saga is strangely paradoxical. On one hand they shout down any discussion of the ROGD phenomenon, denying that it even exists, because they insist that everyone who claims to be trans was born in the wrong body. So of course nobody can possibly be detransitioning, because trans people always know what body they should have been born into. But then when they're pointed to undeniable examples of people who are detransitioning and have detransitioned, the line becomes "of course they weren't really trans in the first place!" Well, duh. That's kind of the point.

You can't at the same time declare that everyone who describes themselves as trans was born in the wrong body and there should be no gatekeeping and no assessment and no counselling, just immediate affirmation, but then react to the detransitioning phenomenon by saying that these people weren't "really trans". The whole point of the gatekeeping and the assessments and the psychological counselling so hated by the AGP men is to screen out those who are mistaken, going through a phase, or might be doing the wrong thing for whatever reason. If there are people transitioning who aren't "really trans", don't you think it's a bad idea to campaign for all gatekeeping and assessments to be abolished?

There was a man, some years ago, who transitioned and lived as a woman for quite a few years. I can't turn the case up on Google right now but I think he actually had surgery. However he also had dissociative personality disorder - a rare but recognised cause of people presenting as trans. Transitioning didn't cure that of course, and in due course he was properly diagnosed and treated. At that point he said he lost all feeling that he was actually a woman, and all desire to go on living as a woman. He switched back and went back to living as a man.

When this case was pointed out to the trans lobby the reaction was the typical "no true Scotsman" one. He wasn't "really trans", real trans people never change their minds. OK, fine. It's possible that people who aren't "really trans" are going through transition then. So why the bloody hell are you guys so dead set against all psychological assessment of people who present as trans? That's the entire point of it, to screen out the people who aren't "really trans"!
 
Last edited:
kellyb said:
Long time passing. :)

I think it's more likely than not that the 45X reported increase is a mix of:

1) the "background incidence" of people on the extreme end of gender atypicality now having access to therapy and SR meds/surgery - the people who would have been the "persisters" in early studies of people coming to gender clinics - these are the people for whom the "emerging orthodoxy" is a godsend, for real

2) those who developed dysphoria through "social contagion", probably similar to anorexia nervosa

3) "tomboy" lesbians perceiving themselves as boys/men now because of a change in environment/culture relative to 15 years ago.

It seems like people are becoming increasingly fanatical in caring about those in group 1, or alternately, people in groups 2 and 3. Remaining non-fanatical in caring about all three groups equally really is tricky.
Click to expand...


Yes, I think that's a fair assessment. The problem is, if you remove all gatekeeping and all assessment, and simply affirm everyone and (for girls) start handing out prescriptions for testosterone at the second appointment, you're going to set groups 2 and 3 on a path that will lead to irreversible medical changes in their bodies (beard, receding hair, deep voice), probably to irreversible mastectomy, and possibly to the sort of mutilation we see in the phalloplasty patients.

That is precisely the concern at present. In the push to make things easy for the first group, who may be only a tiny fraction of those presenting at present, the interests and indeed the very existence of groups 2 and 3 are being denied.
 
I have to report that it is completely impossible to tell the difference between your hyperbole and your genuine opinions.

Ok, hang on, so a trans woman who doesn't get bottom surgery is a Man Invading Womens' Spaces and probably an "autogynephile" (AGP for short) who is really just a sex pervert getting off on the idea of being a woman and not a Real Transgender Woman (because of course you don't really have a problem with Real Transgender Women except that they're not Real Women and that they're a quiet minority next to the "AGP" sex pervert men who are using them to muscle in on women's spaces)

But a trans man who DOES get bottom surgery is probably a sad, misled, mutilated young lady who will regret their foolish choices but force down these regrets due to Sunk Costs and Social Pressures (because of course you don't really have a problem with Real Transgender Men except that they're not Real Men and that they're a tiny minority next to the just oceans of people who ought to be butch lesbians or who are just going through a phase but got Socially Railroaded, Brainwashed and Tricked into gender reassignment surgery).

Am I doing Rule of So right?

The forearm donor thing is a conscious choice btw, lots of people do an upper thigh donor site instead so they don't have such a conspicuous scar. The forearm just happens to be one of the donor sites that gives you a good chance for touch sensitivity when it's all done.

The days of a person not realizing what they're in for with any of these surgeries are long gone. And they do kind of suck, which is why they are still pretty rare! Plenty of trans men are WAY more interested in general social acceptance as their target gender than they are in trying to get their own penis as long as phalloplasty remains so unsatisfactory.
 
Rolfe said:
(...)declare that everyone who describes themselves as trans was born in the wrong body and there should be no gatekeeping and no assessment and no counselling, just immediate affirmation(...)
Click to expand...

What do we need to put on the table to convince you that this is NOT what the medical community or anybody even remotely sane is saying, at all?

Rolfe said:
don't you think it's a bad idea to campaign for all gatekeeping and assessments to be abolished?
Click to expand...

YES! And the mainstream medical and trans communities agree! 'Gatekeeping' is loaded and could mean anything but ASSESSMENTS and COUNSELING and TAKING IT SLOW and QUESTIONING and ENCOURAGING INTROSPECTION and all that stuff you seem to think everyone wants to abolish, are STANDARD.
 
and that they're a tiny minority next to the just oceans of people who ought to be butch lesbians or who are just going through a phase but got Socially Railroaded
Click to expand...

Where's the data demonstrating that something like that is NOT the case? With a recent increase of 45X (4,415 per cent) are you certain that a majority are "solidly" transgender and won't want to detransition later, because they really are just lesbians/were socially influenced to identify as trans/ went through a psychological "phase"?
 
Lithrael said:
What do we need to put on the table to convince you that this is NOT what the medical community or anybody even remotely sane is saying, at all?

YES! And the mainstream medical and trans communities agree! 'Gatekeeping' is loaded and could mean anything but ASSESSMENTS and COUNSELING and TAKING IT SLOW and QUESTIONING and ENCOURAGING INTROSPECTION and all that stuff you seem to think everyone wants to abolish, are STANDARD.
Click to expand...


It may be standard where you are, now, but this is exactly what is being proposed for my country, and is the reason a hell of a lot of women are up in arms about it. Self-ID is the phrase. This is kind of the point. If it weren't for the single-minded campaign politicians have been exposed to by the trans lobby to eliminate all gatekeeping, I wouldn't even be in this debate. However, all the signs at present are that they're going to get their way.

They've already got their way in Canada.

The massive (and alarming) increase in girls entering gender reassignment clinics is happening on the back of this push for self-ID. Even before legislation is in place, health providers are being told (by Stonewall, Mermaids etc.) that there's no alternative but affirmation on the child's/young person's say-so. Any attempt to provide counselling, to explore other possible reasons for a feeling of hating your body, to address psychiatric co-morbidities, to proceed with a "watchful waiting" approach is being outlawed as "conversion therapy". We're not in Kansas any more. The experiences of people who transitioned even a few years ago are not comparable to what is happening now.
 
Last edited:
It varies, but all the pressure and all the travel is for faster and faster affirmation and on to the hormones.

It's the combined threat of men being able to access all women's protected spaces by doing no more than say "I'm a transwoman", and what's happening to young people, especially girls, that's causing the rising tide of concern.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom