TERFs crash London Pride

[kellyb]

Like Chinese foot binding, high heels are physically debilitating and crippling. They are painful and physically damaging to wear and stop women running away, so they are literally disempowering.


One might also ask why so many women being abused in mainstream porn wear high heels and nothing else. Why do men find this sexually arousing? What is this footwear signifying in this context?

Yeah, I almost added that heels need to go the way of the corset and Chinese foot binding, actually.

I think with both heels and corsets, it has to do with the puritanical values hyper-sexualizing butts and boobs, personally.

 

[JihadJane]

It's a very popular game with bigots and radicals, the "redefinition fallacy", redefining terms to change the nature of the debate. Redefining "racism" as "prejudice plus power" enables the individual to deny their own racism and invalidate the arguments of opponents who would otherwise be able to prove said racism using the racist's own words and actions. As long as the "power" aspect is missing, they cannot truly be racist, therefore their opponents are not only wrong, but bad people for accusing them of something that they cannot possibly be.

It's an unfortunately far too effective a technique in real-world debates.

Stop the name-calling.

 

[kellyb]

Nature makes that assertion, not me. Men and women (and other animals) are differentiated sexually according to their biological, reproductive function. One produces sperm. The other carries eggs.

The assertion you're making is about what you see as the only valid definition of the word woman, when you know you're talking to people who disagree.

Also, from Merriam-Webster:

Dictionaries are often treated as the final arbiter in arguments over a word’s meaning, but they are not always well suited for settling disputes. The lexicographer’s role is to explain how words are (or have been) actually used, not how some may feel that they should be used, and they say nothing about the intrinsic nature of the thing named by a word, much less the significance it may have for individuals.

 

[3point14]

Yeah, I almost added that heels need to go the way of the corset and Chinese foot binding, actually.

My 5'0" friend would be very upset if you took her heels away.

Maybe she's been infected by the patriarchy, but she just thinks it makes her taller and therefore less looked down upon, physically, which, she says, allows her to project authority more easily.


Is there no neutral aspect to trying to look attractive towards the opposite sex? Can both men and women dress to impress their opposite numbers just because they want to do so? Is there always some social aspect. Should I feel bad for liking ladies legs? For liking the physical attributes of ladies over gentlemen? Hell, should I feel bad for dressing up nice to go out because the ladies I'm with get all impressed when I turn up in a nice suit? (A good suit makes my shoulders look broader and my hips narrower and hides my expanding middle)

 

[kellyb]

My 5'0" friend would be very upset if you took her heels away.

Maybe she's been infected by the patriarchy, but she just thinks it makes her taller and therefore less looked down upon, physically, which gives her, she says, allows her to project authority more easily.

Oh, please.

Nobody's talking about taking heels away.

Why do you think short men don't wear high heels?

 

[3point14]

Oh, please.

Nobody's talking about taking heels away.

Yes, you were. I quoted the bit where you were talking about it.

You didn't advocate it. You only almost advocated it, but you definitely talked about it - Right there, in the post I quoted.

Why do you think short men don't wear high heels?

You chose not to answer my questions? In light of our recent exchange, can I ask why?

 

[kellyb]

Yes, you were. I quoted the bit where you were talking about it.

You didn't advocate it. You only almost advocated it, but you definitely talked about it - Right there, in the post I quoted.





You chose not to answer my questions? In light of our recent exchange, can I ask why?

Who "took corsets away" from women?

You chose not to answer my questions? In light of our recent exchange, can I ask why?

My bad. I'm just kind of distracted this morning. That's a long string of questions, though.

Is there no neutral aspect to trying to look attractive towards the opposite sex? Can both men and women dress to impress their opposite numbers just because they want to do so? Is there always some social aspect. Should I feel bad for liking ladies legs? For liking the physical attributes of ladies over gentlemen? Hell, should I feel bad for dressing up nice to go out because the ladies I'm with get all impressed when I turn up in a nice suit? (A good suit makes my shoulders look broader and my hips narrower and hides my expanding middle)

1) not sure
2) sure
3) no
4) no
5) meh, I have no idea, but it sounds like you're grossly overestimating the sexual enhancement of suits in terms of faking physical fitness

 

[3point14]

Who "took corsets away" from women?

But the Chinese foot binding?

You said you almost said that heels should "go the same way as corsets and Chinese foot binding."

The implication in your post is pretty heavy, don't you think? A direct comparison from heels to a debilitating, permanent, physical alteration of ladies feet. My inference from your post is therefore that you view the two similarly, i.e. that you think that heels, corsets and chinese foot binding have some sort of equivalence. I think that's a bit extreme.

My bad. I'm just kind of distracted this morning. That's a long string of questions, though.

Well, I have a lot of questions because I don't understand the difference between looking nice and being subjugated.

1) not sure
2) sure
3) no
4) no
5) meh, I have no idea, but it sounds like you're grossly overestimating the sexual enhancement of suits in terms of faking physical fitness

RE no. 5. I don't think so. A well tailored suit is a superb accoutrement when one is talking to ladies. The difference in reaction I get when suited as opposed to jeans and a tshirt is much more marked than when ladies put heels on.

 

[kellyb]

But the Chinese foot binding?

You said you almost said that heels should "go the same way as corsets and Chinese foot binding."

The implication in your post is pretty heavy, don't you think? A direct comparison from heels to a debilitating, permanent, physical alteration of ladies feet. My inference from your post is therefore that you view the two similarly, i.e. that you think that heels, corsets and chinese foot binding have some sort of equivalence. I think that's a bit extreme.

Heels cause physical problems, too:

https://www.self.com/story/what-wearing-high-heels-does-to-your-feet

The reason heels are bad is because when you are in any kind of shoe that has elevation or a heel, your weight gets shifted forward to the ball of the foot," Jackie Sutera, D.P.M., a podiatric surgeon at City Podiatry in NYC, tells SELF. "The higher the heel, the more weight and pressure get shifted forward. Your knees and hips then have to push forward and your back has to hyperextend backwards to counterbalance," she explains. This can translate to leg, hip, and back pain. "It misaligns the whole skeleton and that’s in a nutshell why it's really bad for you."

Straining your ankles and other tendons surrounding the foot can lead to tendonitis. "Because your foot is elevated and the weight goes forward, a lot of tension gets taken off the Achilles tendon and it shortens over time," Sutera explains. "That's why a lot of women who are a little older don’t feel good in flats, because the tendons are so tight from overuse of high heels their whole lives" that it’s uncomfortable when they’re stretched to their original length. Extra weight and pressure on the front of the foot can even cause a stress fracture. Heels can also cause pinched nerves. "The most common is called Morton's neuroma," Sutera says

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/neal-m-blitz/5-foot-problems-that-keep_b_9453818.html

The abnormal foot position from heel wearing makes the back of the heel bone prominent, and become a source of irritation against the counter of the shoe. This is so common that the medical community named the condition “pump bumps.”

Wearing heels means walking mostly on the ball of the foot and can result in a condition called metatarsalgia, which is inflammation of the these foot bones.

------

Well, I have a lot of questions because I don't understand the difference between looking nice and being subjugated.

That is not surprising. You've never been expected to wear stuff like high heels.

RE no. 5. I don't think so. A well tailored suit is a superb accoutrement when one is talking to ladies. The difference in reaction I get when suited as opposed to jeans and a tshirt is much more marked than when ladies put heels on.

How do you know it's not an economic/class status symbol?

 

[3point14]

Heels cause foot problems, too:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/neal-m-blitz/5-foot-problems-that-keep_b_9453818.html

I know. I believe there is also some minor benefit in a few cases, but that's a vague recollection.

Can I just ask if you seriously want to continue a discussion drawing a direct parallel between uncomfortable footwear and bodily mutilation?

That is not surprising. You've never been expected to wear stuff like high heels.

Please don't make assumptions. I can walk in heels quite well, thank you very much.

How do you know it's not an economic/class status symbol?

How do you know heels aren't? Have you seen the price of a pair of Jimmy's?

 

[kellyb]

I know. I believe there is also some minor benefit in a few cases, but that's a vague recollection.

Can I just ask if you seriously want to continue a discussion drawing a direct parallel between uncomfortable footwear and bodily mutilation?

Yes, I'm completely serious. I absolutely think their existence as a social norm is oppressive nonsense.

How do you know heels aren't? Have you seen the price of a pair of Jimmy's?

I think they are to a fairly large extent. "Oppressive" and "a symbol of high economic status compared to other women" are not mutually exclusive categories.

 

[kellyb]

Please don't make assumptions. I can walk in heels quite well, thank you very much.

When have you ever been expected to wear heels?

 

[kellyb]

I know. I believe there is also some minor benefit in a few cases, but that's a vague recollection.

Yeah, you're right:

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/health-fitness/news/a33428/one-crazy-advantage-to-wearing-high-heels/

One Crazy Advantage to Wearing High Heels
No pain, no gain.

In a series of French studies recently published in Archives of Sexual Behavior, researchers examined the way footwear affects people's willingness to help random strangers: In the first two studies, women wore flats, 5-centimeter-high heels, or 9-centimeter-high heels, and asked a total of 270 men and 180 women on the street to complete a quick survey. The surveyor had more luck recruiting guys when she wore higher heels, but heel height didn't seem to affect women's willingness to help out.

 

[3point14]

Yes, I'm completely serious. I absolutely think their existence as a social norm is oppressive nonsense.

Then I refer you back to my short friend who likes her heels. The comment you dismissed earlier because you weren't talking about heels in that way.

I think they are to a fairly large extent. "Oppressive" and "a symbol of high economic status compared to other women" are not mutually exclusive categories.

Isn't that "All clothes"?

 

[zooterkin]

When have you ever been expected to wear heels?

Who is expecting women to wear them these days? What are the consequences of not wearing them?

 

[3point14]

When have you ever been expected to wear heels?

I only wore them when expected.

I could string this out, but:

If one plays Dame in Panto, one is expected to wear heels. Not only that, but to do all sorts of things in them that aren't part of normal life for anyone.




(NB - My thanks for a civilised conversation.)

 

[kellyb]

Who is expecting women to wear them these days? What are the consequences of not wearing them?

Here in the US south, I was expected to start wearing "pumps" starting around age 13 when at church, at "formal" social functions, and when older at certain jobs.

The consequences of not obeying the social norms are difficult to describe.

 

[kellyb]

Then I refer you back to my short friend who likes her heels. The comment you dismissed earlier because you weren't talking about heels in that way.

People sometimes end up enjoying those sorts of things in spite of the fact that they're inconvenient, painful, or oppressive, etc.

I don't oppose people liking such things when that's the case - I only oppose the expectations that we do them as a matter of "normality".

 

[3point14]

Here in the US south, I was expected to start wearing "pumps" starting around age 13 when at church, at "formal" social functions, and when older at certain jobs.

The consequences of not obeying the social norms are difficult to describe.

People sometimes end up enjoying those sorts of things in spite of the fact that they're inconvenient, painful, or oppressive, etc.

I don't oppose people liking such things when that's the case - I only oppose the expectations that we do them as a matter of "normality".

From what you write above, I think there are enormous differences in expectations for your sex between where I am and where you are.

Of the 40 or so women in my office now, I think fewer than 10% are wearing heels and nobody cares.

 

[kellyb]

From what you write above, I think there are enormous differences in expectations for your sex between where I am and where you are.

Of the 40 or so women in my office now, I think fewer than 10% are wearing heels and nobody cares.

I worked for a while at a law firm, and this sort of thing was the average expected attire. https://azatty.wordpress.com/2012/0...ig-honored-by-women-in-law-empowerment-forum/

It's possible to "get away" with bucking the trend and violating the norm, but it makes things tricky. You have to outperform people who obey the norm in order to remain employed, and even then, there will be minor consequences, like having your boss request that you "dress nicely" and sensing that that's code for "wear at least 3 inch heels".