TERFs crash London Pride

Rolfe said:
Jane, I have to take my hat off to you, I don't know how you retain your patience to go on typing against this tirade of falsehoods, fantasy, male supremacy, misogyny and downright lies.
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Look, I know you disagree that trans women are women, which justifies your belief that I've said something that is false, something that is a fantasy, and some thing that is 'a lie' (again, all by your view, which, well, right back at you), but I don't see male supremacy or misogyny going on.

There are some 'pro male' statements I disagree with, but even those don't appear to be motivated by male supremacy or misogyny.

Again, by your view trans women are men, but by my view, they are women. It is therefore fundamentally, and intellectually, dishonest to say that my views are motivated by male supremacy. Not only do I view my arguments as defending women, but I also argue defending trans men as well.
 
Wow, I can't remember when I last encountered such a lack of self-awareness in anyone.

First, do you really, seriously believe that a male can literally turn into a female? This is not possible. Second, I realise you're not into reading anything that shows a different perspective from your own, but have you absolutely no awareness whatsoever of the attacks on women and women's rights coming from the trans actvists? By standing up for violent abusive men who want to take over and appropriate women's identity you're hardly defending women. You're defending abusive men.

We all know trans-identifying men who are pleasant, polite and unassuming. The mistake is to believe that because these people exist, all trans-identifying men are like that. Or at the very most, there are a few isolated examples of violent abusive trans-identifying men, but these people can be ignored in the interests of not offending male-born people.

The violent, abusive, demanding, aggressive trans-activist contingent is significant, serious, and a very real threat to women's rights and women's safety. I don't know how it has happened that so many people have been brainwashed into reflexively equating "trans" with "someone who is so fragile that he or she must be championed over all other interest groups", but these people are not fragile, not vulnerable and not oppressed.

So long as you go on dismissing each example of egregious behaviour from a trans-identifying man as an isolated incident, just a tiny minority whose threat can be brushed aside because the delicate trans sensibilities are so much more important than actual women, you're never going to understand what's going on.
 
Rolfe said:
Wow, I can't remember when I last encountered such a lack of self-awareness in anyone.

First, do you really, seriously believe that a male can literally turn into a female? This is not possible.
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You are not taking this conversation seriously. You're better than this at critical thinking. Your straw man is two levels wrong. You know I don't think a male can be turned literally female and you know that I consider transgender women women.

That women must be born female is your argument not mine.

Second, I realise you're not into reading anything that shows a different perspective from your own, but have you absolutely no awareness whatsoever of the attacks on women and women's rights coming from the trans actvists? By standing up for violent abusive men who want to take over and appropriate women's identity you're hardly defending women. You're defending abusive men.
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I don't defend violent, abusive anyone. That you tie their violent abuse to your view of them as men just means you're also a misandrist in addition to be trans-excluding.

You aren't just defending from unreasonable arguments made by trans activists. You view trans rights as an attack on cis women. That's wrong, and my not agreeing with it isn't simply because 'I don't want to read a different perspective', but that your argument is repeatedly false and fallacious.

Some trans activists being wrong doesn't make you right.

We all know trans-identifying men who are pleasant, polite and unassuming. The mistake is to believe that because these people exist, all trans-identifying men are like that. Or at the very most, there are a few isolated examples of violent abusive trans-identifying men, but these people can be ignored in the interests of not offending male-born people.
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The mistake is to believe that because there have been violent trans women that they are violent because they are trans women (what you call a man).

The violent, abusive, demanding, aggressive trans-activist contingent is significant, serious, and a very real threat to women's rights and women's safety. I don't know how it has happened that so many people have been brainwashed into reflexively equating "trans" with "someone who is so fragile that he or she must be championed over all other interest groups", but these people are not fragile, not vulnerable and not oppressed.
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Trans people are not oppressed? Come off it. That's abjectly ludicrous. Again, trans women that pass are treated like cis women. Also, cis women can be oppressed by people who think they are trans women.

You are describing your views of cis women. They deserve special protections above other women because men and other women are such threats to them. That is literally your argument you're attributing to me. Your accusations that I'm not arguing in good faith are wrong and unsupported.

So long as you go on dismissing each example of egregious behaviour from a trans-identifying man as an isolated incident, just a tiny minority whose threat can be brushed aside because the delicate trans sensibilities are so much more important than actual women, you're never going to understand what's going on.
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You aren't even paying attention to the arguments others are making, instead just linking vapid articles.

Maybe you aren't better than this. :(
 
Rolfe said:
One of the actual banners carried by the lesbian group read "Get the "L" out." And yes, that is what they are campaigning for. For lesbians to split from the alphabet soup where they're being bullied, insulted and erased, and to revert to organising their own affairs.
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Surely nothing is preventing them from organizing their own groups, pride marches and so on? Why hijack someone else's?
 
So many groups of victims in a massive struggle for acknowledgement that their victim hood is bigger than the other groups of victims
 
Arcade22 said:
Surely nothing is preventing them from organizing their own groups, pride marches and so on? Why hijack someone else's?
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I would have thought that they feel they are taking the message to where's it's needing driven home, in their opinion.
 
tyr_13 said:
. No, they are saying they can't be women in any sense.
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Please give us your definition of the word "woman", in all senses.



That would be a trans lesbian. Is that really hard to follow?
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What's a cis lesbian?

Please define "trans lesbian"

Thanks



Even more absurd, trans women who pass get treated as cis women already.
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Rarely, because despite their delusions that they look like real women, most "passing" transwomen look like men imitating porn stars.


They get those life experiences too.
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No, they don't. They do not have the life experiences of a woman and never will because they do not have women's bodies. They have neither grown up in a female body nor have they experienced the socialisation (gender programming) that girls and women receive.

So, sorry to break it to you, mate, but men cannot be women in any sense whatsoever.

Also; it is NOT that they become a woman simply by identifying as one, but the things that cause them to identify as a woman make her one. This is an important distinction, and ties into another mistake in reasoning you make.
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Please be specific about "the things that cause them to identify as a woman". Name all of them, if possible.

Please define the word "woman", using the English language.


Is English not your first language?
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Do you speak Kannada?


Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, various gender categories.
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That is a circular definition. It uses the, as yet, undefined (by you) word 'gender' to explain what the word 'gender' means.

Therefore, it does not define the word 'gender' at all.

Please define the word "gender".

Thank you.
 
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tyr_13 said:
You are not taking this conversation seriously. You're better than this at critical thinking. Your straw man is two levels wrong. You know I don't think a male can be turned literally female and you know that I consider transgender women women.

(
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Please share your understanding of what the word "women" means.

Thanks.
 
tyr_13 said:
Look, I know you disagree that trans women are women....
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And that's the end of the conversation right there. If you refuse to accept that transwomen are women then the rest is just hot air. And that's what the entire debate comes down to, with certain women also enjoying throwing in claims of misogyny just to silence any disagreement.

I don't believe there is any equivalent movement against transmen and it amuses me that while many anti-trans activists object to non-ciswomen defining 'woman' they seem perfectly happy to define the word 'man' to include transwomen.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
And that's the end of the conversation right there. If you refuse to accept that transwomen are women then the rest is just hot air. And that's what the entire debate comes down to, with certain women also enjoying throwing in claims of misogyny just to silence any disagreement.

I don't believe there is any equivalent movement against transmen and it amuses me that while many anti-trans activists object to non-ciswomen defining 'woman' they seem perfectly happy to define the word 'man' to include transwomen.
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What's your definition of the word "woman", Archie?
 
JihadJane said:
<snip>

tyr_13 said:
Even more absurd, trans women who pass get treated as cis women already.
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Rarely, because despite their delusions that they look like real women, most "passing" transwomen look like men imitating porn stars.

<snip>
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Apparently you are confused about the difference between drag queens, who sometimes may be transwomen, and transwomen, few of whom are drag queens.

Do you need to have the difference explained to you, or can you do the research on your own?

If you feel you can manage foraging out on your own, this wiki article is as good a place as any to begin.
 
Derrick Jensen interviews Julie Bindel about the widespread deplatforming and harassment of gender-critical feminists by radical transgender activists in UK universities.

 
quadraginta said:
Apparently you are confused about the difference between drag queens, who sometimes may be transwomen, and transwomen, few of whom are drag queens.

Do you need to have the difference explained to you, or can you do the research on your own?

If you feel you can manage foraging out on your own, this wiki article is as good a place as any to begin.
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Sorry, it was a bit of harsh generalisation. The difference is that drag queens know they are acting. Drag queens make fun of gender stereotypes. I should have said that transwomen tend to imitate (and reinforce) traditional feminine stereotypes, e.g. long hair, dresses and teenage "girly" and porn-derived mannerisms (e.g. flirty hair flicking, presenting as sex objects).

e.g.

RE: This Is What a Woman Looks Like by Magdalen Berns





What is your definition of the word "woman"?

What is your definition of the word "gender"?
 
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Rolfe said:
This is not my subject so I can't vouch for the truth of it but I have encountered numerous assertions that this is a misleading statement. I would therefore appreciate a fact-check.
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Yeah I did not RC, the incident I was thinking of with Marsha Johnson happened well into the riot and, as stuff that happens in riots, is not reliably documented.

Robin Souza had reported that fellow Stonewall veterans and gay activists such as Morty Manford and Marty Robinson had told Souza that on the first night, Johnson "threw a shot glass at a mirror in the torched bar screaming, 'I got my civil rights'". Souza told the Gay Activists Alliance shortly afterwards that it "was the shot glass that was heard around the world". Carter, however, concluded that Robinson had given several different accounts of the night and in none of the accounts were Johnson's name brought up, possibly in fear that if he publicly credited the uprising to Johnson due to her well-known mental state and gender nonconforming, then Stonewall, and indirectly the gay liberation movement, "could have been used effectively by the movement's opponents".
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And at the time she identified mostly as a street drag artist, refusing to give a gender when asked. At the time, people were being arrested for (among other things) wearing clothes without the matching pants contents.

She was the kind of person the Respectable gay/lesbian movement wanted nothing to do with, cause their pitch for acceptance to the straights was that they were totally respectable people who just happened to be gay/lesbian. Anyone flamboyant and/or nonconformist (besides the just-being-gay part) was embarrassing. Stonewall in general, before the riot, was an embarrassment to the nice, buttoned-down gays/lesbians; it was a diverse and relatively nasty mafia-run bar that let in the kind of people you could find living on the street.

And it’s true Marsha Johnson wasn’t a poster-suitable person, with plenty of trouble, trouble-making, desperation, prostitution and violence in her life, but she also strove hard to help marginalized people, run shelters, demand respect where it was due, etc. In the end, at 46 years old, she was found dead in the Hudson River.

The lesbian woman who most agree actually sparked the riot at Stonewall died in her sleep aged 93.
 
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I've been generally avoiding these threads, having already had my fill of TERFs in multiple venues, but reading through this one brought something home to me -- there are distinct and pronounced parallels between TERF activism, and the resurgence of white nationalist activism.

It's a well-establish phenomenon that marginalized groups, rather than forming common cause with other marginalized groups, often turn on those who they consider less socially acceptable in an attempt to elevate their own status and paint themselves as more acceptable to the overculture.

That's long been a characteristic of the LGBTQ community as much as any other. Conservative, "Log Cabin" type Gays and Lesbians further marginalizing drag queens/kings and other flamboyant G&Ls, bisexuals (insisting there's no such thing), and transpeople. Lesbians in particular have been notoriously vocal in excluding transpeople.

But the real parallels didn't start until very recently. There's also a tendency for mainstream overculture groups to react badly to marginalized folks attaining some measure of equality, and in particular being called out on their prejudice against and oppression of said groups. We can see it amongs the white supremacists and their sympathizers, with the "White People Are The True Victim" rhetoric. They will take any and every opportunity to paint their loss of privilege as oppression, and reactions by the marginalized groups as "the real bigotry", over-exaggerating a vanishingly small number of fringe incidents and individuals as representative of the entirety of the marginalized group.

This is what we're now seeing with movements like "Get the L out", where a marginalized group who were previously able to look down on a further marginalized group, transpeople, reacting badly to said groups being treated as equal to them, and trying to paint their loss of what bit of privilege they had as oppression.

The radical feminist fringe has taken a page out of the Religious Right handbook (much as they did with pornography back in the '70s and '80s) and attempted to paint the recognition and acceptance of transpeople as somehow oppressive to them, engaging in the same "true victim" rhetoric and cherry picking of lunatic fringe voices to make them appear representative of the group.

The entirety of transactivism is tarred with the actions of a vanishingly few nutcases, just as the entirety of the Civil Rights movement was tarred with the brush of a tiny handful of violent revolutionaries by the mainstream government and culture, because it serves the selfish interests of the larger G&L groups to make themselves appear more acceptable to the mainstream. It's the old schoolyard tactic of the bullied becoming bullies themselves to ingratiate themselves with those who are bullying them and end their own torment at the expense of someone smaller and weaker, or at least regain some sense of power and control.
 
A common thread I see when comparing TERF vs white nationalist rhetoric is one that doesn't surprise me anymore.

"protect our women from _ThEm_" is the rallying cry of both movements (and of course the broader feminist sphere in general - not just TERFs)
 
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