TERFs crash London Pride

[sadhatter]

No, that just means I gave a bad secondary definition. How about as a second definition: "an intersex person who self-identifies as a woman, or an adult human male whose gender identity is that of a woman."

First rule of definitions, if you have to use the word for your definition to make sense it is a bad definition. This is some grade school stuff here.

"A dog is the animal people are calling when they say 'come here dog' "

"A knife is something people need when they look fir a knife"

" a car is any car a person who likes cars has"

All of these are as useful as your definition.

A definition must explain something to someone who has not heard the concept before.

 

[sadhatter]

What simulates height, and do they make your feet deformed over time and cause the many other health problems high heels do?

If you re-read back over the exchange, by the way, you'll see that I arguing that increasing height is not the core reason why women wear high heels.

The fact you have no idea these products exist, proves my point pretty well. And yes, over the long term they do. I can think of them being mentioned in media a handful of times and in each they were treated as something to be ashamed of. ( boondocks saints, or maybe the sequel used them as a plot point. )

 

[kellyb]

A

The purpose of language is simply to accurately transmit the thoughts of one person into the mind of another or others.

B

It's works both ways. Language can also be used to tell lies and to manipulate (propaganda).

I think the thing described in claim B is a "subtype" of claim A.

The lie has to be clear in the mind of person A, in order for person A to accurately transmit it into the mind of person B. Person A is just also able to also think about the thought "It's actually not true".

I haven't seen any definition of the word"woman" that changes its meaning from being a human being belonging to the sex that is able to give birth to babies.

I think my definition # 2 does ok..."1) an adult human female 2) a person who self-identifies as having the gender identity of those of female sex"

As for the word "gay", saying "What a gay day!" now has a different meaning to the one it had before "gay" came to also mean male homosexual.

Right, just like the trans-inclusive uses of the words man and woman, where it's referring to the strictly psychological or sociological "gender identity" of the person.

Redefining "woman" to also mean "man" renders the word "woman" as a signifier for "adult human female" meaningless and redundant. It erases women as a distinct group of humans.

When someone uses the word "woman" in a way that's inclusive of transwomen, they're speaking a language that's kind of a distinct thing from "common English", to be completely honest. It's similar to slang, come to think of it, for example "woke". https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/woke-meaning-origin

For all the words that address gender, the lexicographers are debating what changes, if any, to make. http://www.slate.com/articles/doubl..._the_word_woman_doesn_t_necessarily_mean.html

ETA: In the parlance of tans-inclusiveness, the word for adult human males is "cis-men", and the word for adult human females is "cis-woman."

BTW: What's ignorant about calling transwomen men?

Someone being silly might argue that it demonstrates a lack of awareness of the difference between sex and gender.

If anyone's mind were changed by anything I posted, I would regard that as a million dollar miracle!

In spite of the fact that I'm not in 100% agreement with you, you and Rolfe's posts have significantly impacted my own thinking on this topic.

The core of narcissistic perception is the delusion that feelings are facts: I feel like a woman inside, therefore I am a woman.

To whatever extent the pink brain/blue brain stuff is scientifically valid and "real in objective reality according to modern neuroscience", most people's brains are apparently like jars filled with both pink and blue marbles.

Transpeople in general really do appear to be accurately self-diagnosing an unusual for their sex portion of pink or blue marbles. Somehow that sometimes gets processed as "I AM the other gender". A lot of times, at least, it really does seem.

 

[sadhatter]

A


B


I think the thing described in claim B is a "subtype" of claim A.

The lie has to be clear in the mind of person A, in order for person A to accurately transmit it into the mind of person B. Person A is just also able to also think about the thought "It's actually not true".



I think my definition # 2 does ok..."1) an adult human female 2) a person who self-identifies as having the gender identity of those of female sex"



Right, just like the trans-inclusive uses of the words man and woman, where it's referring to the strictly psychological or sociological "gender identity" of the person.



When someone uses the word "woman" in a way that's inclusive of transwomen, they're speaking a language that's kind of a distinct thing from "common English", to be completely honest. It's similar to slang, come to think of it, for example "woke". https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/woke-meaning-origin

For all the words that address gender, the lexicographers are debating what changes, if any, to make. http://www.slate.com/articles/doubl..._the_word_woman_doesn_t_necessarily_mean.html



Someone being silly might argue that it demonstrates a lack of awareness of the difference between sex and gender.



In spite of the fact that I'm not in 100% agreement with you, you and Rolfe's posts have significantly impacted my own thinking on this topic.



To whatever extent the pink brain/blue brain stuff is scientifically valid and "real in objective reality according to modern neuroscience", most people's brains are apparently like jars filled with both pink and blue marbles.

Transpeople in general really do appear to be accurately self-diagnosing an unusual for their sex portion of pink or blue marbles. Somehow that sometimes gets processed as "I AM the other gender". A lot of times, at least, it really does seem.

Your definition reads "anyone who wants to be is a woman" ,that is a useless definition. It's criteria are so ambiguous, and it's information so broad it does not do its job as a definition.

Essentially the same format

"A punk rocker is anyone that follows the ethos and style of punk rock. 2. Anyone who self identifies as a punk rocker"

The second part of the definition makes the first part useless. Things are defined using criteria, the broader the criteria the less useful the definition.

 

[kellyb]

Your definition reads "anyone who wants to be is a woman" ,that is a useless definition. It's criteria are so ambiguous, and it's information so broad it does not do its job as a definition.

Essentially the same format

"A punk rocker is anyone that follows the ethos and style of punk rock. 2. Anyone who self identifies as a punk rocker"

The second part of the definition makes the first part useless. Things are defined using criteria, the broader the criteria the less useful the definition.

No, those were the proposed definitions of the word "woman", not the word "female".

eta: oh, I see what you mean, but you're just wrong.

It's common for there to be strict and loose definitions listed separately, and redundancy therein.

 

[sadhatter]

No, those were the proposed definitions of the word "woman", not the word "female".

eta: oh, I see what you mean, but you're just wrong.

It's common for there to be strict and loose definitions listed separately, and redundancy therein.

Not when one completely invalidates the accuracy of the other. The information you are adding is making the definition worse not better.

It would be like the definition of a coin being

1. A token use to symbolize an amount in a currency. 2. Any object that represents a value in any form.

2 takes away from the accuracy of 1, nessecitating a different term for outliers otherwise things like bills ,tokens, ious ,among many other non coin items.

They are both trying to wedge a definition into something it does not encompass.

 

[kellyb]

Not when one completely invalidates the accuracy of the other. The information you are adding is making the definition worse not better.

I'm not adding information to one definition. The second definition is a completely different use of the word.

Like adding "is homosexual" in as an additional definition of the word "gay" was not an "improvement upon" the "demonstrating happiness" definition. They're separate, totally different definitions. Might as well have been a whole new word, but that's not how the language evolved.

 

[kellyb]

It would be like the definition of a coin being

1. A token use to symbolize an amount in a currency. 2. Any object that represents a value in any form.

2 takes away from the accuracy of 1, nessecitating a different term for outliers otherwise things like bills ,tokens, ious ,among many other non coin items.

They are both trying to wedge a definition into something it does not encompass.

Just look at the actual definition of the word coin:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coin

a : a usually flat piece of metal issued by governmental authority as money
b : metal money
c : something resembling a coin especially in shape

something used as if it were money (as in verbal or intellectual exchange)

The meanings of most words are...all over the place. LOL

 

[caveman1917]

Fair enough. How about this?

1) an adult human female 2) a person who self-identifies as having the gender identity of those of female sex

What is the gender identity of those of female sex? What about all those people who don't have a gender identity? From my experience hardly anyone has a gender identity other than trans-people and people already quite caught up in the ideology.

 

[kellyb]

What is the gender identity of those of female sex?

A vast majority of the time it's "feminine" or female, or something close.

What about all those people who don't have a gender identity?

Then it's probably the one commonly associated with their sex.

From my experience hardly anyone has a gender identity other than trans-people and people already quite caught up in the ideology.

I truly suspect that's kind of like American white people who feel like there's no real "white culture" here, because "we're" all so different from each other in little variant subcultures. Really, "American culture" is "white culture" in America.

Only people who have a sex and a gender at odds with one another might notice that their brains are so strikingly more like "the other sex".

 

[caveman1917]

How many participants in this thread do you think reject the fringe "misgendering is literal violence" claim, but would agree with me that calling transwomen men is controversial, insensitive, rude, ignorant, or something like that? Do you really believe I'm the only one? If so, would a poll be useful?

Is it controversial, insensitive, rude or ignorant to tell Flat-Earthers that the Earth is round? Should we then proceed to change the definitions of the terms "flat" and "round" to pander to their beliefs?

 

[caveman1917]

A vast majority of the time it's "feminine" or female, or something close.

Got any evidence for that? And I thought female was a sex and not a gender identity?

Besides, we're just going in circles here, we simply arrived back at:

2. Social ones. All the ones of the form "A woman is someone with the social status/space usually occupied with an adult human female" and variations thereupon (they're all just variations on "A woman is anyone who is feminine"). This immediately leads to results such as:

- A woman can't be a CEO.
- A man can't be a nurse.
- A man can not wear a dress.
- Men can not have long hair.
- Women can not have short hair.
- Butch lesbians aren't women.
- Effeminate gay men aren't men.
-...and so on.

 

[kellyb]

Is it controversial, insensitive, rude or ignorant to tell Flat-Earthers that the Earth is round? Should we then proceed to change the definitions of the terms "flat" and "round" to pander to their beliefs?

Gender is influenced by social and cultural factors, whereas the Earth's shape is not.

 

[caveman1917]

Gender is influenced by social and cultural factors, whereas the Earth's shape is not.

Neither is age, sex or species which are the basis for the definitions of the terms "man" and "woman". So the answer is yes, we should proceed to change the definitions of the terms "woman" and "man" to pander to their beliefs.

Transwomen are men in the same way that the Earth is round, and changing the definitions[*] of "woman" and "man" to pander to the belief of transwomen wanting to call themselves women is no different from changing the definitions of "flat" and "round" so that Flat-Earthers can call the Earth flat.

* Still waiting for the first one that doesn't fall apart under scrutiny btw.

 

[caveman1917]

A: "A dolphin is a spacecraft."
B: "No it isn't."
A: "That hurts my feelings, I want to believe a dolphin is a spacecraft!"
B: "Look at the definitions of dolphin and spacecraft, they are not compatible."
A: "You're just an irrational bigot, the whole world is bigoted for not going out of their way to change the definitions of dolphin and spacecraft especially so I can feel good about my belief."
B: "Well of course we don't to be seen as bigots." *proceeds to rewrite the dictionary so that dolphins are spacecraft*

 

[kellyb]

Got any evidence for that?

Just the fact that most women would not meet the diagnostic criteria for this: https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

 

[kellyb]

A: "A dolphin is a spacecraft."
B: "No it isn't."
A: "That hurts my feelings, I want to believe a dolphin is a spacecraft!"
B: "Look at the definitions of dolphin and spacecraft, they are not compatible."
A: "You're just an irrational bigot, the whole world is bigoted for not going out of their way to change the definitions of dolphin and spacecraft especially so I can feel good about my belief."
B: "Well of course we don't to be seen as bigots." *proceeds to rewrite the dictionary so that dolphins are spacecraft*

Your behavior is drifting into overt trolling now.

Please don't make me put you on "mental ignore".

 

[caveman1917]

Just the fact that most women would not meet the diagnostic criteria for this: https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

That doesn't support that most women have a gender identity.

 

[caveman1917]

Your behavior is drifting into overt trolling now.

Please don't make me put you on "mental ignore".

You can put me on "mental ignore" all you want, the point is valid. Don't forget to change the definitions of "human", "cat", "fox", "lion", etc too while you're at it, you wouldn't want to be bigoted to this lady or these people as well.

 

[kellyb]

That doesn't support that most women have a gender identity.

Well, we do, once we take a second to notice how "not correct" the notion of ourselves as guys/men/boy/whatever masculine word you wish to use is.