Tea Partiers Mobilize To Take It 'To The Next Level'

[Cleon]

Paradalis makes comments about US domestic politics occasionally, but does not obssess about them like some people do.
The problem some of have with certain people is they come off like they are lecturing us simple minded Yanks on how to manage their affairs.

He makes comments about US domestic politics as often as anybody else does. US domestic politics do tend to dominate this forum.

The plain and simple fact is, the "why do you care, you don't live here" bit is just a pathetic way to whine about someone's views without addressing the substance of them.

 

[tyr_13]

Actually it was adapted under Tsar Nicholas The Second.
If you want a Communist small arm try the PPsh 41 Submachingun or AK 47.
I prefer the Springfield 03 or the Lee Enfield as far as Bolt Action Rifles go, but the Mosin is a good weapon. But if you are in the market, try to get one made in Finland. They are much more accurate then the RUssian made versions.
Damn it, now you make me want to go watch "Enemy At The Gates" tonight.....

AHhh, I knew I forgot to mention something! Right, the Nagant isn't a commie weapon, it's a feudal weapon.

But yes, I've wanted to find at least a Finish made barrel for a while now.

Sorry for the derail all.

 

[Skeptic]

my above little contribution had a serious intent: I meant to emphasize the emotionality of the Baggers' politics, as against any kind of rationality.

The idea that your side has a lock on the rationality, and that therefore the other side is completely stupid and/or evil, is a well-known debating technique.

How could they? They don't read, they can hardly write, and they despise and resent intellectualism.

I, too, am against letting black people vote.

 

[drkitten]

The idea that your side has a lock on the rationality, and that therefore the other side is completely stupid and/or evil, is a well-known debating technique.

Which doesn't make it wrong.

I, too, am against letting black people vote.

Lovely straw man there. The problem, of course, is that there's nothing about being black as such that should devalue your vote. There is, however, something about being an idiot that should devalue your vote. If you're literally incapable of making a rational choice on the ballot, then your vote is by definition irrational.

If you can't name any of the candidates in the election, why should I believe that you have an effective and useful opinion on which one is the best?

 

[Neally]

I think the black-woman-with-gun is being misinterpreted here.
It actually claims to stand up for a repressed minority's right to own guns and defend themselves against the KKK.

I don't like the picture either, but it's not a racist message.

XBoxWarrior keeps ascribing racism as inherent in the group, yet I haven't seen any real evidence of it.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

XBoxWarrior keeps ascribing racism as inherent in the group, yet I haven't seen any real evidence of it.

I know there's plenty of room to quibble about what is meant by "inherent in the group", but here's some clear evidence of racism in the Tea Party:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/16/10-most-offensive-tea-par_n_187554.html

And another:
http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/04/racist_signs_at_tea_parties.php

And another:
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsme...e_shows_photoshopped_image_of_raci.php?ref=mp

 

[tyr_13]

Yeah, but the argument 'they mostly white, so they must be racists' is put forth too often. I don't find it a valid point. However, they really could be.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Yeah, but the argument 'they mostly white, so they must be racists' is put forth too often. I don't find it a valid point. However, they really could be.

Who put that argument forth?

I put forth the argument that they're racist because they're waving Confederate flags, carrying signs with the "n" word (ETA: and I don't mean "negro"), and referring to Obama as "the long legged mack daddy":

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/09/12/912-signs/

 

[MattusMaximus]

I don't know why some here are dissing the Opryland Hotel. It's a really nice place, and despite my slightly left-of-center leanings, I wouldn't mind staying there... again

 

[tyr_13]

Who put that argument forth?

I put forth the argument that they're racist because they're waving Confederate flags, carrying signs with the "n" word (ETA: and I don't mean "negro"), and referring to Obama as "the long legged mack daddy":

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/09/12/912-signs/

XboxWarrior did. He expressed surprise at finding out one of them was a black woman, and labeled her a token. That might not have been the reasoning he was using, but it appeared to be.

And even if it didn't happen in this thread, it isn't exactly unheard of to put up a picture of a Tea Party rally followed by comments about them being rich white people.

Again, I'm not making the argument that these Tea Parties don't tend to appear racist. I'm saying that one can't point to the lack of black people as proof of racism.

 

[Whiplash]

Which doesn't make it wrong.

*blink*

Did she really just say that?

Anyone, on either side, who is utterly convinced their side has a strangle hold on facts, logic and reality is seriously deluding themselves.

Almost nothing is as cut and dry as some on either side make it out to be.

Almost everything is as multi-faceted and layered with things to consider as the other side makes it out to be, when criticizing their opposition.

 

[cwalner]

*blink*

Did she really just say that?

Anyone, on either side, who is utterly convinced their side has a strangle hold on facts, logic and reality is seriously deluding themselves.

Almost nothing is as cut and dry as some on either side make it out to be.

Almost everything is as multi-faceted and layered with things to consider as the other side makes it out to be, when criticizing their opposition.

Careful there, whiplash. Too many posts like that and you might start becoming a Liberal.

 

[Skeptic]

Which doesn't make it wrong.

But it rather increases its chances of being so.

"Idiots whose views no reasonable people would support" had been the shrill cry directed against just about every minority (political or actual) group in politics' long history -- so it does nothing to help us decide whether they're actual idiots or not.

The problem, of course, is that there's nothing about being black as such that should devalue your vote.

Oh, it's not being black as such. Is them supporting all kinds of crazy ideas. Like desegregation, for instance, when everybody knows that... No, I am not really comparing the two positions. I am saying calling the other side an "uneducated idiot" is no argument. It's the easiest thing in the world to prove anybody's political argument about anything shows he's an "idiot".

There is, however, something about being an idiot that should devalue your vote. If you're literally incapable of making a rational choice on the ballot, then your vote is by definition irrational.

Which is why I think people who vote for desegregation -- clearly proof of them not thinking clearly -- should have no right to vote.

It's the usual two-step: you don't like the way he votes, so you declare the vote to be "irrational". But how do you know he's "irrational"? Well, he voted the other way, didn't he?

Don't tell me it's because you see flaws in his reasoning. Somehow I don't recall you being deeply concerned about Obama supporters going wild over him in his pre-election speeches -- a type of rock-star fandom rarely seen in American politics, and certainly not a mark of rational thinking. They, after all, reached the correct conclusions, so they can't be that irrational.

In this sort of argument, the "proof" of irrationality is at least 50% -- more probably 90% -- simply disagreement with your one's own political conclusions, which are, of course, the standard of excellence and rationality.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

XboxWarrior did. He expressed surprise at finding out one of them was a black woman, and labeled her a token. That might not have been the reasoning he was using, but it appeared to be.

I guess I missed that.

And even if it didn't happen in this thread, it isn't exactly unheard of to put up a picture of a Tea Party rally followed by comments about them being rich white people.

Again, I'm not making the argument that these Tea Parties don't tend to appear racist. I'm saying that one can't point to the lack of black people as proof of racism.

Yes, but couldn't it be true that people are making two different valid criticisms/observations? 1) The Tea Party is composed virtually exclusively of white people, and 2) many of them are racist.

BTW, I don't think most Tea Party people are rich. In fact, many of them look to be working class to middle class people.

 

[Eddie Dane]

I know that most people in this movement are white.
But there are quite a few black people with weird and irrational political ideas.
For instance: Alan Keyes, that nut who took an AR-15 to a presidential speech, some black pastor (forget name) who spewed every stupid anti-Obama line you've ever heard, etc etc.

 

[BenBurch]

One Alan Keyes did not make the GOP the party of diversity.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

This is going to backfire, but hilariously. (I mean, sure, they might stand a chance of taking Dem seats. But if they *are trying to unseat Republicans as well*, it'll cause nice interparty conflict.)

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I know that most people in this movement are white.
But there are quite a few black people with weird and irrational political ideas.

This does nothing to refute the observation that the Tea Party is virtually all-white, does it? No one is claiming that the Tea Party has a monopoly on lunacy; just that it is lunatic.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

This is going to backfire, but hilariously. (I mean, sure, they might stand a chance of taking Dem seats. But if they *are trying to unseat Republicans as well*, it'll cause nice interparty conflict.)

Yup. I brought that up earlier in the context of the presidential election in 2012. Splitting conservatives can only help the Democrats.

 

[Neally]

Who put that argument forth?

I put forth the argument that they're racist because they're waving Confederate flags, carrying signs with the "n" word (ETA: and I don't mean "negro"), and referring to Obama as "the long legged mack daddy":

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/09/12/912-signs/

I didn't see a "n" word sign in that link. One other link did have it, but the Tea Party group said that they disassociated itself with the person carrying it. No doubt some that show up at the rallies are bigoted, even racist, but I haven't found any official or unofficial statement in which they are claiming an inherent superiority of white people.