Taxes and the Bail Out

[Wangler]

Here you go. I know it's a link to a satire site, and a little partisan, but despite it's silly nature, it should suffice.

Thanks, but I already have that one in my favorites list.

As I knew lefty wouldn't respond, I had to do some research myself.

Turns out McCain's tax plan does continue some of Bush's policies, but there are some marked differences, it appears upon further comparisons.

Thanks for always trying to be helpful GreyICE.

 

[GreyICE]

Thanks, but I already have that one in my favorites list.

As I knew lefty wouldn't respond, I had to do some research myself.

Turns out McCain's tax plan does continue some of Bush's policies, but there are some marked differences, it appears upon further comparisons.

Thanks for always trying to be helpful GreyICE.

You post this in response to my reply, which I made, let me check, 12 minutes after you posted.

Reality is just this thing that buzzes around your head you occasionally swat at...

FYI, it's nothing resembling a misrepresentation to say that McCain would preserve the Bush tax cuts, when in fact his position is that he would preserve the Bush tax cuts... but also make new cuts. And implement some Ron Paul specials.

It constantly shocks me that people can handwave the fact that their party's VP candidate is reduced to lying about what foreign dignitaries she has interacted with in a desperate attempt to look relevant, but can jump up and down and call foul when someone calls an apple an apple because he didn't say exactly what kind of apple it was. Don't you run the risk of having your head explode from the sheer absurdity? Doublethink is alive and well, I guess.

 

[Wangler]

You post this in response to my reply, which I made, let me check, 12 minutes after you posted.

GreyICE, you are correct here..I lost track of the time, and certainly can't expect lefty to be waiting in the wings for me...my comment was ill-advised.

Reality is just this thing that buzzes around your head you occasionally swat at...

Eh, what?

FYI, it's nothing resembling a misrepresentation to say that McCain would preserve the Bush tax cuts, when in fact his position is that he would preserve the Bush tax cuts... but also make new cuts. And implement some Ron Paul specials.

I kind of confused by this response too...I guess I didn't make it clear that I agreed that McCain's policy will extend some of the Bush tax policies?

It constantly shocks me that people can handwave the fact that their party's VP candidate is reduced to lying about what foreign dignitaries she has interacted with in a desperate attempt to look relevant, but can jump up and down and call foul when someone calls an apple an apple because he didn't say exactly what kind of apple it was. Don't you run the risk of having your head explode from the sheer absurdity? Doublethink is alive and well, I guess.

On the contrary, I think that both candidates (well, all four) have misrepresented facts at one point or the other.

Perhaps the point of view I hold, that all candidates have misspoken (I guess lie would be appropriate) at one point or another about both inconsequential and meaningful facts, is not held by many around here.

Some folks have convinced themselves that their candidates are golden in this regard, I guess.

But Im not sure how this relates to the discussion at hand?

 

[Meadmaker]

Economic slowdown, less tax revenue collected, new government spending...... and both candidates are still pledging to lower taxes.


Beam me up Mr. Speaker.

Well said.

 

[mhaze]

2. Get an equity-stake in the companies you buy the loans (and other financial assets) from such that if the loans fall in value below what we pay for them, we get preferred stock in the companies to make up the difference and can then take profits from the companies.
....

Umm, no, a socialistic takeover of the industry by forcing issuance of preferred stock only causes irrational market behavior, not profits, followed by corrections. What yields profit is a fire sale of assets, to those who correctly guess in buying them.

The only way companies owned by the government and holding large groups of undervalued assets could show a higher profit would be to bend influence of the government to favor them.

 

[geni]

Umm, no, a socialistic takeover of the industry by forcing issuance of preferred stock only causes irrational market behavior, not profits, followed by corrections.

Are you trying to argue that it is posible for markets as a whole to act irrationaly.

 

[leftysergeant]

Are you sure about that? Got a reference, or something similar to frame this opinion?

thanks!

McCain, every time he is asked about it, is just fine with leaving the capital gains tax cuts in place. There is no reason on the face of this earth for the investor class to get a subsudy from the working class. The investor class does not create wealth, and they sure have done major damage to the wealth of this nation over the last thirty years, mostly to the hurt of the working class who actually create the wealth.

 

[leftysergeant]

Are you trying to argue that it is posible for markets as a whole to act irrationaly.

How do you think we wound up with a seven-hundred billion dollar millstone around our necks?

 

[GreyICE]

GreyICE, you are correct here..I lost track of the time, and certainly can't expect lefty to be waiting in the wings for me...my comment was ill-advised.

Thanks, I'll pass that on to lefty if I ever meet him.

I kind of confused by this response too...I guess I didn't make it clear that I agreed that McCain's policy will extend some of the Bush tax policies?

Here, let me put this a different way: Any he's not planning to extend? Yeah, didn't think so. Any chance of that Ron Paul flat tax special actually working? Seriously, when you put insane talking points like that on your page, you're begging for the comparison...

On the contrary, I think that both candidates (well, all four) have misrepresented facts at one point or the other.

No really? However, the conservative nit-picking squad is back in force, demonstrating once again that their mastery of the incredibly obscure minutia is fully capable of denying the obvious meaning of what a candidate has said. So excuse me if I sit back and laugh if you're suggesting that the Democrats and Republicans are somehow equal in their misrepresentation of facts. We've had 16 years for them to demonstrate quite differently.

Perhaps the point of view I hold, that all candidates have misspoken (I guess lie would be appropriate) at one point or another about both inconsequential and meaningful facts, is not held by many around here.

Some folks have convinced themselves that their candidates are golden in this regard, I guess.

But Im not sure how this relates to the discussion at hand?

Both candidates will have to raise taxes in office. Period, the end.

 

[Meadmaker]

Speaking of taxes and the bailout, I heard two news commentators today say that the bailout bill actually included tax cuts within it. Does anyone know anything about this? What sort of tax cuts?

 

[corplinx]

Speaking of taxes and the bailout, I heard two news commentators today say that the bailout bill actually included tax cuts within it. Does anyone know anything about this? What sort of tax cuts?

Don't quote me on this, but since finance bills have to originate from the house, the Senate had to take an existing tax subsidy bill the house had sent up and tack on the bailout to it to get it back to the house before the house re-convened.

Its not so much tax cuts as earmarks in disguise from what I've heard. I'd had to have time to research it in depth to say that with authority though. Could be crap.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

McCain, every time he is asked about it, is just fine with leaving the capital gains tax cuts in place. There is no reason on the face of this earth for the investor class to get a subsudy from the working class.

A subsidy is when government takes, from one group, the money which they have rightfully earned, and gives it to others who have not earned it. the upper classes are the ones who are having the largest portion of their rightfully-earned wealth taken away from them, and given as subsidies to others who have done nothing to earn it.

Only to a Marxist would it make sense to describe letting someone keep more of his own rightfully-earned money instead of taking it away from him and redistributing it to others, as a “subsidy”.


When's the last time you got a job working for a member of “the working class”? It's the “investor class” which creates companies and opportunities, which make it possible for the “working class” to even exist, to make a living.

 

[geni]

A subsidy is when government takes, from one group, the money which they have rightfully earned, and gives it to others who have not earned it. the upper classes are the ones who are having the largest portion of their rightfully-earned wealth taken away from them, and given as subsidies to others who have done nothing to earn it.

You realise your position allows for 100% inheritance tax since people who have inhereted haven't earned it?

Only to a Marxist would it make sense to describe letting someone keep more of his own rightfully-earned money instead of taking it away from him and redistributing it to others, as a “subsidy”.

Not really. You are forgeting that the the system within which capital gains are made (one where property rights are respected and various other factors) costs money to maintain. So in effect if taxes fall bellow a certian level on some ways of earning money then you are subsidising that person.

When's the last time you got a job working for a member of “the working class”? It's the “investor class” which creates companies and opportunities, which make it possible for the “working class” to even exist, to make a living.

No. Or at least not in any meaningful form. New companies that actualy do stuff mostly come from entrepreneurial class. Now some of the Entrepreneurial is the existing rich. If you have money and connetions starting a company is less of a problem. However a significant number of such startups come from the working class (and yes I have worked for one).

Of course the investor class does create companies but they tend to be more for tax or liability reasons (I once looked as an alchemy takover in the UK from what I recall they ended up with two partialy owned subsideries with the computer software company they had brought owned by the company at the bottem of the chain).

So where does the investment class come in. Venture capitalists are the most obvious. As are the various banks that loan to startups or growing businesses (lloyds TSB have a fair amount of operations in this area which may be related to why they appear to be doing rather better than other banks). However those banks get a fair bit of their capital from regular depositors.

There are however many other areas of investment. Share dealing in mature companies only really creates jobs in that it provides a way for the entrepreneurial class and venture capitalists to realise the increase in value of their investments. Currency speculation doesn't really create jobs beyond generaly producing a halfway legit valueation of the currency (well unless George Soros decides to get involved again not many would dare to bet against him). Commodity speculation is again of limited value in provideing employment beyond provideing selling companies with some certianly which can be atchived in other ways.

 

[leftysergeant]

A subsidy is when government takes, from one group, the money which they have rightfully earned, and gives it to others who have not earned it. the upper classes are the ones who are having the largest portion of their rightfully-earned wealth taken away from them, and given as subsidies to others who have done nothing to earn it.

You mean like giving the investor class a hand with public funds?

Only to a Marxist would it make sense to describe letting someone keep more of his own rightfully-earned money instead of taking it away from him and redistributing it to others, as a “subsidy”.[?QUOTE]

It isn't you money until you have paid your utility bills. Government is a public utility. The investor class is using more of it, to greater personal fgain than is the working class at the moment. Stop snivelling and pay your utility bills.

It's the “investor class” which creates companies and opportunities, which make it possible for the “working class” to even exist, to make a living.

One of the great myths of capitalism. Labor existed long before capital existed and can be organized in other ways if capital ceases to exist.

 

[Meadmaker]

Are you trying to argue that it is posible for markets as a whole to act irrationaly.

If he doesn't, I will. We've had two major bubbles burst in the last decade.

Unless what you mean is in the long run. Sooner or later, real value rears its ugly head, but meanwhile, there's plenty of irrationality to go around.

 

[leftysergeant]

Without government to reel it back in, the market goes progressively crazy in cycles. FDR called it right. Phil Gramm called it wrong. We lost.

 

[corplinx]

We still going with the Gramm myth big lie?

 

[leftysergeant]

The bill did have his name on it. It was an awful piece of legislation. Gramm was one of those idiots who, like Reagan and Norquist, saw government as the problem, and the investor class quite capable of making all the right decisions for America.

 

[corplinx]

The bill did have his name on it. It was an awful piece of legislation. Gramm was one of those idiots who, like Reagan and Norquist, saw government as the problem, and the investor class quite capable of making all the right decisions for America.

Who do you bank with?

 

[geni]

Economic slowdown, less tax revenue collected, new government spending...... and both candidates are still pledging to lower taxes.


Beam me up Mr. Speaker.

Problems are
1)Americans love tax cuts to the point I doubt it is posible to get elected without some kind of tax cut (in comparision to the UK conservatives who have said they migh raise taxes and cut spending yet still appear to be on course to win)
2)obama at least has given himself some room to manover on the spending thing.
3)Americans belive in the infinet pot of gold of goverment waste to a rather extream extent.