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TAM7+: Thoughts, feedback, suggestions...

If you want something extra at TAM, don't expect JREF to do all the legwork. It takes a looong time for Karl and Linda to investigate which hotels can accommodate us, and do the negotiations. Do you want them to jump from hotel to hotel, just because you have heard that Hotel X is really good for this?

The JREF can do whatever it pleases. Judging by how many times Jeff urged us at TAM6 to fill out the evaluation forms, I was under the impression that the JREF was interested in people's suggestions and feedback, period, not just those backed by "legwork." I will continue to believe that until someone speaking on behalf of the JREF says otherwise.

So I encourage people to continue to post their suggestions to this thread, and ignore Claus's sniping.
 
CF,

Forgive me...but your responses are just about as illogical and pointless as I can imagine. You emphasize how jam-packed everything is, how difficult it is to fit everything in to such a short time period...and then turn around and say that every one of my suggestions can be reasonably addressed/covered within the current format.

Sorry, dude, it don't work that way. *snip*

Dammnit Wolfman, I was quite happy in walking away from this forum without saying another word, and now I just have to comment on your post. :D

I learned a lot this TAM, and not from the talks. I had the privilege of attending the event with fairly open access to the speakers and getting interviews, and importantly having ABC Australia interested in what I have to say. In doing this, I got to dig deeper into the views of the 'big names', including a fascinating conversation with Randi himself.

I won't go into too much detail for a number of reasons, however for me personally there were few surprises.

The success of TAM appears to be gauged primarily on two accounts - amount raised for the JREF and the numbers of attendees. There is secondary success gauged on the demographics, as linked with Randi's comment on there being a large number of females and young people. However, beyond this, I don't think there is much desire for more information on communicating skepticism. The information itself is of less importance than the waving of a banner. I get the feeling that it is less of a conference, per se, and more akin to a pride march where we can feel good about being skeptical. Sure, there were a few interesting talks on why we don't believe in certain things...but do 900 skeptics really need to be told again why homeopathy is bunk?

There is a wide gap between those who study communication and education and events such as TAM. The problem is that gatherings of the former attract only niche individuals, while the latter lacks empirically-supported substance related to how we can communicate skepticism. Hence TAM, in that regard, is little better than any other field which presumes its conclusions of being successful in changing minds, even though it attracts a wide variety of already like-minded people.

I got the feeling that there is a belief amongst skeptics that simply shouting an opposing message works. We shout 'homeopathy does not work' and feel because we get 900 people cheering we've done something worthwhile beyond strengthening our community (which isn't a bad thing in itself, mind you). They go out and shout the same to their friends and family and also feel good. Mind you, informing people is not the same as changing how people think. 150 years of doing this has not seen homeopathy diminish in the slightest.

TAM has great potential to do some fantastic things. However three things struck me; of the two presentations being given on communication and education, both were given by people who use the craft rather than study it (imagine being given a talk on cutting edge physics by an engineer rather than a physicist - one is good, the other is better); educators who attended felt that while they were the ones who could offer the most benefits to society by way of changing how young people think, there was little addressing them; of the 900 people attending, a large proportion (I won't say the majority, but from the number of hands that went up it certainly appeared so) were first timers. Since last year's numbers were 800, a number of people aren't returning.

In summary, from the talks I had and what I saw, TAM is an accurate summary of skepticism in general - a gathering of like-minded people cheering about being likeminded, but who have no real inclination on asking how the hell do we reach the rest of the community and taking skepticism beyond a niche market. If skeptics are happy just preaching to the choir, then TAM is a success. Sadly, this isn't what they think they are doing.

Athon
 
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thank you for correcting me... clearly Banacheks lessons have not taken fully...

but I heard her on NPR today... reminded me of how interesting she is.
I saw Jill speak live at TED and it started out really great and then at the end she attributed all the amazing feelings she was having as her stroke-addled brain shut down to *woo*. I don't recall the exact words but the gist was that it was proof to her of a metaphysical connection with the universe. I was completely deflated because she's a brain scientist. I had been waiting excitedly for her to tie her experience to near death experiences and the various other hallucinations that are common in oxygen deprived brains. And then wham, she dove straight into woo land with an E ticket. She was one of the first speakers at TED this year and it really set things off on a bad note for me.

I'm not sure we'd want her to speak at TAM unless we are sure that she'll be able to speak about the well-understood medical (not metaphysical) reasons for her hallucinations. Or maybe we can ask her to do her talk and then follow it with Shermer recapping his NDE material from "Why People Believe Weird Things". :)

But you're right. The first part of her talk was really good...
 
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I suggest Wil Wheaton as a possible speaker. His blog is a great source of skeptic/reality-based/geek humor, and I think he'd fit well with the overarching themes. YMMV. :)

As to feedback, from another first-TAMer: To be honest, when I go to Vegas I expect overpriced drinks, fair-to-middling food, and wall-to-wall crappy tackiness, so I can't direct any complaints in that direction. My reasons for going to TAM were to meet fellow skeptics, listen to the speakers, and enjoy an atmosphere most unlike my daily grind. As Athon mentioned, for many that's enough - but there could be more. Perhaps a workshop on ways to communicate skeptical ideas to non-skeptics? Even presented with tongue-in-cheek humor this could be a great tool for attendees to take home as food for thought. Or more opportunities for teachers to share and learn techniques for encouraging critical thinking (Richard Saunders' divining demonstration was an excellent example)?

Don't get me wrong: I loved the star power, and was just as fangirl-loopy to get my photo with Adam Savage, but I also came away from the weekend with a newly-renewed desire to do something and not just sit around drinking about it. My reasons for going next year are different now, as are my goals. For me, if TAM ever becomes a insider nudge-nudge-wink-wink, "are we teh coolz or what?" experience more than an opportunity to learn from and share ideas with other smart, interesting people, I'll stop going.
 
I've been to two TAMs, 4 and 6. TAM4 I was able to go to the papers, though not all of them of course--I had to choose half. A couple were difficult choices, and I'm not going to buy a recording. I'm poor, and I'd never find the time to watch it anyway. For those reasons, I'd rather not be forced to pass up content that I'd rather see.

For content that perhaps doesn't interest, why not skip out on it? Go do something else. This TAM, I didn't do anything that wasn't on the schedule. I didn't go see Bodies, I didn't see the Bellagio fountains except driving by, I didn't see any shows besides P&T. I was in my room only to sleep. At least for this TAM I could catch everything by sitting in the same place.

You want to make it more expensive, and cram in even more content? Do you even want me to come back?
 
I saw Jill speak live at TED and it started out really great and then at the end she attributed all the amazing feelings she was having as her stroke-addled brain shut down to *woo*. I don't recall the exact words but the gist was that it was proof to her of a metaphysical connection with the universe. I was completely deflated because she's a brain scientist. I had been waiting excitedly for her to tie her experience to near death experiences and the various other hallucinations that are common in oxygen deprived brains. And then wham, she dove straight into woo land with an E ticket. She was one of the first speakers at TED this year and it really set things off on a bad note for me.

How unfortunate that scientists are susceptible to irrationality.
But yes, it's even more unsettling when coming from the learned.
 
Dammnit Wolfman, I was quite happy in walking away from this forum without saying another word, and now I just have to comment on your post. :D

--snip--

In summary, from the talks I had and what I saw, TAM is an accurate summary of skepticism in general - a gathering of like-minded people cheering about being likeminded, but who have no real inclination on asking how the hell do we reach the rest of the community and taking skepticism beyond a niche market. If skeptics are happy just preaching to the choir, then TAM is a success. Sadly, this isn't what they think they are doing.

Athon
Athon, I agree 100%...and have actually invoked your name in my thread discussing this issue in more detail (hope you don't mind).
 
The JREF can do whatever it pleases. Judging by how many times Jeff urged us at TAM6 to fill out the evaluation forms, I was under the impression that the JREF was interested in people's suggestions and feedback, period, not just those backed by "legwork." I will continue to believe that until someone speaking on behalf of the JREF says otherwise.

So I encourage people to continue to post their suggestions to this thread, and ignore Claus's sniping.

Try to read the OP: It is specifically about people's thoughts, feedback, suggestions, etc.

Sure, there were a few interesting talks on why we don't believe in certain things...but do 900 skeptics really need to be told again why homeopathy is bunk?

900 skeptics - many of them newbies - need to know that they are not alone.

This is a major point for a lot of skeptics: Lots are very alone with their critical thinking - some even have to hide the fact that they are skeptics. For them, TAM is a great opportunity to experience that not only are they not alone, there are many people from all over the world who think like them, and who are more than willing to share their own knowledge and experience. Just read what a lot of forumites say about TAM: It was great for them to finally meet other skeptics - especially the free atmosphere where you get to mingle with the speakers. That's not something we should easily overlook.

There is a wide gap between those who study communication and education and events such as TAM. The problem is that gatherings of the former attract only niche individuals, while the latter lacks empirically-supported substance related to how we can communicate skepticism. Hence TAM, in that regard, is little better than any other field which presumes its conclusions of being successful in changing minds, even though it attracts a wide variety of already like-minded people.

And that's great! Haven't we been busy arguing that skepticism needed more diversity? That it needed to attract people from all parts of society?

There were a lot more women at TAM6 than before - and they came in their own right, not as hubby-additions. We also saw a number of teens, and I suspect they will grow in number, too.

I got the feeling that there is a belief amongst skeptics that simply shouting an opposing message works. We shout 'homeopathy does not work' and feel because we get 900 people cheering we've done something worthwhile beyond strengthening our community (which isn't a bad thing in itself, mind you). They go out and shout the same to their friends and family and also feel good. Mind you, informing people is not the same as changing how people think. 150 years of doing this has not seen homeopathy diminish in the slightest.

You present it as if TAM'ers do nothing else than "shout". If you look at the many groups and people with websites who were also present, you will find that there are many other ways skepticism is being spread by.

TAM has great potential to do some fantastic things. However three things struck me; of the two presentations being given on communication and education, both were given by people who use the craft rather than study it (imagine being given a talk on cutting edge physics by an engineer rather than a physicist - one is good, the other is better); educators who attended felt that while they were the ones who could offer the most benefits to society by way of changing how young people think, there was little addressing them; of the 900 people attending, a large proportion (I won't say the majority, but from the number of hands that went up it certainly appeared so) were first timers. Since last year's numbers were 800, a number of people aren't returning.

And yet, TAM still attracts many newbies. That tells me that TAM is reaching a broad segment of the population, and doesn't cater to a very small group. And that's the way it should be: Skepticism should never be for a very small group of people which is basically - as you describe it - a niche.

In summary, from the talks I had and what I saw, TAM is an accurate summary of skepticism in general - a gathering of like-minded people cheering about being likeminded, but who have no real inclination on asking how the hell do we reach the rest of the community and taking skepticism beyond a niche market. If skeptics are happy just preaching to the choir, then TAM is a success. Sadly, this isn't what they think they are doing.

You keep raising this point, and then point to people who study education as the only solution. It sounds very much as if you think skeptics should all be people who do that - and nothing else.

What about those who just want to learn? Who just want to know they are not alone with their skepticism? Who also do other things than study education? If anything, that is taking skepticism way beyond "a niche market". Choosing to focus on the study of education would immediatedly reduce the attraction of TAM for those who are not into that.

If you want more of those who study education, fine. It is very important, I quite agree. But don't dismiss all those who are doing something else - or simply are skeptics, without jumping in with a substantial amount of their time, with various efforts in whatever area they think they can do the most good.
 
I saw Jill speak live at TED and it started out really great and then at the end she attributed all the amazing feelings she was having as her stroke-addled brain shut down to *woo*. I don't recall the exact words but the gist was that it was proof to her of a metaphysical connection with the universe. I was completely deflated because she's a brain scientist. I had been waiting excitedly for her to tie her experience to near death experiences and the various other hallucinations that are common in oxygen deprived brains. And then wham, she dove straight into woo land with an E ticket. She was one of the first speakers at TED this year and it really set things off on a bad note for me.

I'm not sure we'd want her to speak at TAM unless we are sure that she'll be able to speak about the well-understood medical (not metaphysical) reasons for her hallucinations. Or maybe we can ask her to do her talk and then follow it with Shermer recapping his NDE material from "Why People Believe Weird Things". :)

But you're right. The first part of her talk was really good...

I saw that talk too... and at first I thought it was woo... but I'm pretty sure she's a hard core materialist... she was relating her "feelings"... at least that is what I picked up from her NPR talk... and from talking with another cognitive neuroscience. She said "we are our brains." I thought the TED talk was woo-ish at the end too... sometimes Sam Harris sounds that way... but when one conveys feelings of "serenity" and "being in the moment"... it's hard not to sound like you are talking about a soul... I don't know if it's a language thing or not.

When I think about TAM I think I must feel the same thing people at religious retreats are feeling...but I don't have a word or language for that feeling... but I don't want to sound all dewey eyed and "googly". I think it can be confusing because we don't have a way of explaining certain types of feelings without using "spiritual" type phrases.
 
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If you want more of those who study education, fine. It is very important, I quite agree. But don't dismiss all those who are doing something else - or simply are skeptics, without jumping in with a substantial amount of their time, with various efforts in whatever area they think they can do the most good.
Dude, you just don't get it, do you.

He's not "dismissing all those who are doing something else". Far from it. He's arguing to broaden things so that it meets the needs of MORE people! It is you who is essentially arguing that we cannot do anything more, and should not change anything...thereby implicitly excluding anyone and everyone who has interests and needs different than those addressed in the main sessions.

OUTSIDE of TAM, who are the front-line in promoting skepticism and critical thinking?

Teachers.

OUTSIDE of TAM, who should be the number one target group to whom we should promote skepticism and critical thinking?

Students. The next generation.

WITHIN TAM, what percentage of the program or activities are designed to address the needs and interests of either teachers, or students?

Not much.

Neither Athon nor myself are arguing to get rid of the existing programs. Not one iota of the things that you, personally, are interested in would need to be changed. What we are arguing for is to expand the scope of the activities to not only be relevant to a wider variety of people, but to specifically equip people on the front-lines of promoting skepticism and critical thinking with the tools that they need to do so.

Not just sitting around singing kumbayah, and patting ourselves on the backs for how much smarter and wiser we are than everyone else.
 
Dude, you just don't get it, do you.

He's not "dismissing all those who are doing something else". Far from it. He's arguing to broaden things so that it meets the needs of MORE people! It is you who is essentially arguing that we cannot do anything more, and should not change anything...thereby implicitly excluding anyone and everyone who has interests and needs different than those addressed in the main sessions.

You don't broaden things by focusing on one group. If anything, TAM is as broad as you can wish for: Everyone is getting something out of it.

OUTSIDE of TAM, who are the front-line in promoting skepticism and critical thinking?

Teachers.

Excuse me?

Teachers are part of the front-line in promoting skepticism and critical thinking, but they sure aren't the only ones on the barricades.

OUTSIDE of TAM, who should be the number one target group to whom we should promote skepticism and critical thinking?

Students. The next generation.

I disagree. We need to reach each and every group out there: Students, teachers, soccer-moms (ever noticed who go to see psychics?), politicians, scientists, pundits, journalists, and so on. In fact, can you name one group we shouldn't aim for?

WITHIN TAM, what percentage of the program or activities are designed to address the needs and interests of either teachers, or students?

Not much.

If you want TAM to be focused on those studying education, then you have certainly solved the problem with too many people attending.

Neither Athon nor myself are arguing to get rid of the existing programs. Not one iota of the things that you, personally, are interested in would need to be changed. What we are arguing for is to expand the scope of the activities to not only be relevant to a wider variety of people, but to specifically equip people on the front-lines of promoting skepticism and critical thinking with the tools that they need to do so.

Not just sitting around singing kumbayah, and patting ourselves on the backs for how much smarter and wiser we are than everyone else.

If you think that is what people get out of TAM, then you have seriously misread what it is.
 
You don't broaden things by focusing on one group. If anything, TAM is as broad as you can wish for
God, you are dense.

Neither myself nor Athon are arguing to focus on one group. We are pointing out that there are specific groups whose need are not being addressed by TAM. Our argument is to broaden things by keeping the current content, but adding other content that will be of more interest and use to other groups.

And "TAM is as broad as you can wish for"? This, in face of the fact that more than 50% of the people who have responded to this thread have plainly stated that TAM does not provide everything they are looking for, and that they have specific requests as to other types of programs that they'd like to see included? You take egocentrism to a whole new level, dude. Ignore the evidence plainly presented here -- that many people are not satisfied with the status quo -- and simply state that, since you think it is good, it therefore is "everything you could wish for".

Its seems that, once again, "everything you can wish for" is defined as "everything that CFLarsen can wish for". If anyone else happens to have other priorities, or be interested in other topics, too bad.

Get this through your head (have I ever made a request more doomed to failure than that one?). My proposal would leave in place everything that TAM currently has. You like all the sessions, and the speakers? Great. You'd still have them. But, for those of us who happen not to think exactly the same as CFLarsen, and who have other interests, it would provide an opportunity to include content for those people, also!
 
And seriously...I am, from this point on, ignoring CFLarsen. I appreciate the points raised by others, and will continue to respond to those. But, as many others have found, "debate" with CF is pretty much an impossibility. He sees things as he sees them, and regardless of how much evidence or proof is given to the contrary, even when he is plainly shown to be 100% wrong, he'll just keep pushing ahead and saying the same stuff.

Bye bye, CF.

Everyone else...I welcome either your support, or your criticism :)
 
And seriously...I am, from this point on, ignoring CFLarsen. I appreciate the points raised by others, and will continue to respond to those. But, as many others have found, "debate" with CF is pretty much an impossibility. He sees things as he sees them, and regardless of how much evidence or proof is given to the contrary, even when he is plainly shown to be 100% wrong, he'll just keep pushing ahead and saying the same stuff.

Bye bye, CF.

Everyone else...I welcome either your support, or your criticism :)

Answered here.
 
How about Susan BlackmoreWP? She started out as a doctorate in Parapsychology, but switched after ten years of work in that field and became a debunker. Listen to her TED talk on memes and temes here: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/susan_blackmore_on_memes_and_temes.html

And anyone who's picture in their own wiki article has more than three colors in their hair can't have a bad sense of humor.
I thought Susan's talk, at the recent James Randi & Friends event in the UK, was fantastic! entertaining, interesting, well communicated, relevant... An amazing woman, so she should definitely present at TAM :)
 
Dude, you just don't get it, do you.

He's not "dismissing all those who are doing something else". Far from it. He's arguing to broaden things so that it meets the needs of MORE people! It is you who is essentially arguing that we cannot do anything more, and should not change anything...thereby implicitly excluding anyone and everyone who has interests and needs different than those addressed in the main sessions.

I've been baffled by those same responses for ages, Wolfman. Seriously, I've moved on and found other avenues. Yet I'm no less baffled.

Maybe it is just me (and a few others who seem to share my view), but I saw it as this; skepticism is a philosophy by which people create beliefs according to evidence weighed against objective, empirical standards. Skeptics, as people who hold this philosophy, feel that society as a whole is negatively affected by philosophies which embrace other means of weighing evidence, such as social (aka folk) thinking.

Over time, skeptics have spoken out and, eventually through media such as the internet, have found communities where they can share their views and philosophies. For this, we have people like Randi to thank.

Now, if most skeptics were satisfied with simply creating communities of like-minded individuals, I'd have no problem. TAM is certainly a celebration of this. Yet tellingly, a substantial part of this 'celebration' involves lamenting how a substantial part of the outside community continues to hold non-skeptical beliefs. Going on this, and the JREF's goals, it's only natural for one to assume it would be a worthwhile venture to investigate ways of effectively reaching that outside demographic and promoting skepticism.

Since skepticism is about empirical evidence in support of a belief, I would think the best way to do this would be to bring in experts who do this for a living. People who make it their business to understand how people learn.

I've been saying this for a while now, and for the most part it falls on deaf ears. Instead, I'm accused of focusing too much on a single group. If I was only concerned with a subset of teachers, then it might be a fair criticism. However, as I've said a number of times, many people 'teach' as a part of their lives. If you coach a team, lead scouts, run a library, a daycare, lecture at university, tutor, act as a consultant, train people to do a job... I could go on... you're having to consider how people learn.

The amazing thing I find is that skeptics feel selling the answer is effective at creating skeptical thinkers. Shout long and loud and you'll change how people think. Unfortunately, this isn't the case. You might change what people think, but this is not skepticism. Getting people to think skeptically takes more than simply telling them homeopathy is nonsense.

OUTSIDE of TAM, who are the front-line in promoting skepticism and critical thinking?

Teachers.

I might make a small challenge here - there are far more people who promote skepticism, but there are only two groups who can create skeptical thinkers. Teachers, and anybody who is in a position to teach. The former is quite a small demographic. Thankfully the latter is incredibly broad.

OUTSIDE of TAM, who should be the number one target group to whom we should promote skepticism and critical thinking?

Students. The next generation.

It might be of interest to some people that this is a rather critical question in the fields of cognitive development and pedagogy - by what age does one have their epistemology defined?

You might be able to tell an adult that psychic phenomena is better explained by psychology, and they might even take your word for it. But, does this give them the epistemology - a way of creating beliefs - which will sustain them beyond just believing in psychics? Evidence shows that it is incredibly difficult to change the way adults think, at least compared with pre-adolescence. If we're interested in changing how society thinks, we're doing it the hard way by telling adults X is rubbish.

My point is that even just targeting students is a tricky field; knowing how to do it and when to do it could be the critical difference between wasting time and resources and successfully creating good thinkers.

WITHIN TAM, what percentage of the program or activities are designed to address the needs and interests of either teachers, or students?

Not much.

I'd be happier seeing more talks and presentations given by experts in science communication, pedagogy and cognitive psychology aimed at giving people the skills to go back to their own lives and making small changes which maximise their chances of creating critical thinkers out of the kids they have an influence on.

Neither Athon nor myself are arguing to get rid of the existing programs. Not one iota of the things that you, personally, are interested in would need to be changed. What we are arguing for is to expand the scope of the activities to not only be relevant to a wider variety of people, but to specifically equip people on the front-lines of promoting skepticism and critical thinking with the tools that they need to do so.

Not just sitting around singing kumbayah, and patting ourselves on the backs for how much smarter and wiser we are than everyone else.


I'd love to be surprised by TAM7 taking this view into account. I really would be overjoyed. But while this view is twisted into accusations of narrowing the scope, or avoiding the question of whether we are really concerned with education or merely happy with communicating our conclusions, I don't see any monumental changes.

Athon
 
I might make a small challenge here - there are far more people who promote skepticism, but there are only two groups who can create skeptical thinkers. Teachers, and anybody who is in a position to teach. The former is quite a small demographic. Thankfully the latter is incredibly broad.

Thanks for pissing on those skeptics who are not teachers or in a position to teach.

What about those who are merely coming out as skeptics, but have no intention of, or even ability, to teach? I am talking about those who are merely struggling to come to terms with their former beliefs, those who have to keep silent about their skepticism, in fear of being fired or ostracised by their family and friends? They are every bit as skeptical as you. Only, they don't have the opportunities that you do.

It is no wonder that JREF does not give your ideas much time, given your incredible disdain for those who do not think like you, or are in the same position as you.

Skepticism is far, far more than you envision. You need to leave your ivory tower, and join the real world.

Seriously.
 
Thanks for pissing on those skeptics who are not teachers or in a position to teach.

Nice terminology. I'm not sure where I 'pissed' on anybody. I said 'there are only two groups who can create skeptical thinkers - teachers, and those who can teach'. Is there somebody who can create skeptical thinkers without teaching them? Unless some form of didactic brain scan machine has been invented, I hesitate to think so.

What about those who are merely coming out as skeptics, but have no intention of, or even ability, to teach?

Fantastic. I'm sure there would be stuff there for them as well. Since neither Wolfman nor myself have ever said that TAM should abolish anything and everything aside from material aimed at giving people the means to educate others in being skeptical, I can't see why you'd think we would be discouraging their presence.

But I guess your line of argument would fall flat if you went along with what said, rather than your perversion of it.

I am talking about those who are merely struggling to come to terms with their former beliefs, those who have to keep silent about their skepticism, in fear of being fired or ostracised by their family and friends? They are every bit as skeptical as you. Only, they don't have the opportunities that you do.

I'm sure there are some people who, like you, don't get into the outside world much and have little real contact with real people. I'm sure TAM had a few people who, like yourself, might well spend most of their time huddled behind a computer terminal without much personal experience of the outside world. However, I'm fairly confident that you were in the minority. And, second of all, maybe having more material which provides people with ways of communicating skepticism effectively could be a way of encouraging those people, like yourself, to step outside and make contact. If not, I've never said TAM shouldn't have a range of talks aimed at a diversity of people.

It is no wonder that JREF does not give your ideas much time, given your incredible disdain for those who do not think like you, or are in the same position as you.

Hm, so 'providing people who are in a position to influence how others think (i.e. teach) with information on how to do it effectively' equals 'disdain'? Glad I didn't go with my original, pre-edited version which was 'providing teachers with a gold-leafed dais and free food which they can then throw at the plebs who must crawl in their shadows'.

Skepticism is far, far more than you envision. You need to leave your ivory tower, and join the real world.

Seriously.

Man, was my irony meter the only one which exploded? I swear I can smell enough smoke in here for at least another half dozen.

You have a guy who has travelled to China and is setting up a friggin' humanist organisation in a country not really known for its humanist practices, and myself - hardly somebody who has sat behind a closed door for most of his life - arguing with somebody whose view of the world has come filtered through a computer terminal...and now I'm told to join the real world?

Hell, I can hardly see the keys for laughing so hard. I need a rest...

Athon
 
Nice terminology. I'm not sure where I 'pissed' on anybody. I said 'there are only two groups who can create skeptical thinkers - teachers, and those who can teach'. Is there somebody who can create skeptical thinkers without teaching them? Unless some form of didactic brain scan machine has been invented, I hesitate to think so.

Can your educated self imagine that there are people who are not teachers, but still are skeptics? Is it possible that there might just exist people who are very much dedicated to educating people but who are not teachers?

This image of yours, that only teachers carry the torch of skepticism - well, it's not just plain wrong, it is also incredibly demeaning. What the hell do you think Linda is doing? What the hell do you think Alison is doing? What the hell do you think I am doing? Neither of us are teachers, but aren't we doing what we can to promote skepticism?

Get off your high educational horse, Athon. Skepticism is not just for educators. It is for everyone, regardless of what they do, or how they do it.

Fantastic. I'm sure there would be stuff there for them as well. Since neither Wolfman nor myself have ever said that TAM should abolish anything and everything aside from material aimed at giving people the means to educate others in being skeptical, I can't see why you'd think we would be discouraging their presence.

But I guess your line of argument would fall flat if you went along with what said, rather than your perversion of it.

Did I miss the both of you insisting on educators as being the only ones capable of promoting skepticism? No, I did not.

I'm sure there are some people who, like you, don't get into the outside world much and have little real contact with real people.

You know nothing of me, if you say such things. You have no idea what I do in the real world. You are utterly wrong, if you think I merely sit behind my computer, typing away.

Do not pretend to speak knowledgably about other people, when you in reality know nothing. You are behaving like a woo when you do that. It is pure character assassination, based on ignorance.

I'm sure TAM had a few people who, like yourself, might well spend most of their time huddled behind a computer terminal without much personal experience of the outside world. However, I'm fairly confident that you were in the minority. And, second of all, maybe having more material which provides people with ways of communicating skepticism effectively could be a way of encouraging those people, like yourself, to step outside and make contact. If not, I've never said TAM shouldn't have a range of talks aimed at a diversity of people.

You know nothing of what I do, and who I am. There is a world outside this forum. Get over it.

Hm, so 'providing people who are in a position to influence how others think (i.e. teach) with information on how to do it effectively' equals 'disdain'? Glad I didn't go with my original, pre-edited version which was 'providing teachers with a gold-leafed dais and free food which they can then throw at the plebs who must crawl in their shadows'.

Have you never wondered why JREF does not accept your many propositions? Why do you immediatedly jump to the conclusion that it is their fault? The arrogance you show here just may have something to do with it. Ever considered that?

Man, was my irony meter the only one which exploded? I swear I can smell enough smoke in here for at least another half dozen.

You have a guy who has travelled to China and is setting up a friggin' humanist organisation in a country not really known for its humanist practices, and myself - hardly somebody who has sat behind a closed door for most of his life - arguing with somebody whose view of the world has come filtered through a computer terminal...and now I'm told to join the real world?

Hell, I can hardly see the keys for laughing so hard. I need a rest...

Athon

Yes, I think you do, too. Why are you so quick to dismiss anyone who is not in the same position as you?

Drop that condescending, superior attitude of yours. Maybe then, you will be able to get JREF to listen to your proposals. If that is really what you want.
 

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