TAM in Europe?

[Chaos]

Around the end of TAM2, there where several discussions of holding an Amazing Meeting outside America - specifically, in Europe.

It would, of course, have the benefit of allowing more of our European members to attend, while having the drawback of making it more difficult (and expensive) for Americans.

I have already (perhaps ad nauseam) proposed Frankfurt as a site, but there are also other cities that came up in the discussions, and a few more that I thought of later:

- Berlin
- London
- Paris
- Amsterdam
- Kopenhagen
- Rome
- Prague
- Stockholm
- Barcelona
- any other ideas?

I have been to some of these cities before, and they all have some appeal as TAM sites:

- They are not too expensive (with the exception of London and perhaps Paris)
- They have enough tourism to offer good services to tourists
- They offer enough things to see outside the Meeting (especially Rome - you can spend a year there and still not see everything)
- You can get along well enough without speaking any language except English
- Other advantages I didn´t think of

For that reason, I have started this poll just to get a feeling for the interest in TAM attendance. If any of you have ideas, feel free to tell me.

Edited to add:
Everybody who lives closer to America than to Europe (Far East, Australia) please use the "America" options.
Everybody who lives closer to Europe than to America (Africa, Middle East) please use the "Europe" options.
Shemp, please use the Planet X option.

 

[Cleopatra]

Why not organize a TAM in Europe too. Let's be realistic. Those travels are really difficult for the majority and collecting funds in Euros is not such a bad idea for JREF.

I'd vote for Copenhagen to honor the numerous activist skeptics that support the Foundation.I think that Denmark has the most organized skeptic groups but I am not sure about that because Germany seems pretty organized too. I--for example-- buy "Skeptic" and books from a skeptic society in Germany.

I'd propose Greece but in Greece it's the Greek Church that has an very organized Bureau against woo-wooism and we don't have any skeptic groups

 

[headscratcher4]

I think the next one should be in Washington DC....here in the city controlled by fanatics of the religous right. We should hold TAM here so that we can make a statement that the kooks don't own the place.

Interesting panals could be held...invite COngressmen and NIH Alternative Meds. officials to come and defend out-rageous expenditures on "alternative" non-scientific practices. Invite some of the right-wing Christian lawyers fighting for creationism as an "alternative" sciene to talk, etc.

Anyway, my vote is for DC...and it is only based in small part on the fact that I live here and wouldn't have to travel....

 

[Chaos]

Cleopatra

I originally intended to include Athens in my list of cities, but I forgot it - I hope you can forgive me.
Once Athens has successfully hosted the Olympics, it has demonstrated its ability to successfully host an Amazing Meeting as well



There has also been some talk of splitting the Amazing Meetings up, holding two smaller meetings each year, since TAM2 already got very large, and it would probably not be feasible to have much larger meeting - don´t quote me on it, but I think I heard that attendance numbers would have to be capped if they rose much more. Since we had about 350 attendees this time, that would mean a maximum of about 400 people.
From what I heard, attendance at TAM1 was about 230 people, so I guess we could indeed have two TAMs if each got about that many attendees. Perhaps even less, since I heard that nobody expected so many people to come.

It would be nice to hear something official about that.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

I think a US TAM and a European TAM would be the way to go. Many Americans that might attend a TAM in the US might not be able to attend one in Europe for a variety of reasons (not wanting to travel that far, plane tickets too expensive, etc.) and I am sure that the same is true for Europeans wanting to travel to the US. Separate US and European TAMs would solve that problem.

 

[CFLarsen]

I think a US TAM and a European TAM would be the way to go. Many Americans that might attend a TAM in the US might not be able to attend one in Europe for a variety of reasons (not wanting to travel that far, plane tickets too expensive, etc.) and I am sure that the same is true for Europeans wanting to travel to the US. Separate US and European TAMs would solve that problem.

No offense, man, but what does that say about Americans?

I don't exactly love to travel, but I'll go an extra mile (or a few thousand) to attend TAM, as well as digging up a grandmother and sell her for medical experiments to pay for the trip. Guess that doesn't apply to Americans.

We shouldn't have a TAM in Europe to accomodate people's dislike of travelling. We should have it because TAM should not be perceived as a primarily American event - it should be a global event, underlining that pseudoscience is not just an American thingie.

That Americans don't want to travel outside the US is their problem. If people want to maintain limited horizons, so be it.

Think about it: I came from Denmark, deBergerac came from Sweden, the Aussies came from Down Undah, Luciana came from Brazil, Patricio came from Chile. None of us, I believe, are particularly rich. Yet, we spend time and money to get there, wherever TAM may be.

Now, that's dedication.

(sound of raspberry)

 

[headscratcher4]

No offense, man, but what does that say about Americans?

Two things: the dollar bites just now, and there are French people in Europe.

 

[Interesting Ian]

Around the end of TAM2, there where several discussions of holding an Amazing Meeting outside America - specifically, in Europe.

It would, of course, have the benefit of allowing more of our European members to attend, while having the drawback of making it more difficult (and expensive) for Americans.

I have already (perhaps ad nauseam) proposed Frankfurt as a site, but there are also other cities that came up in the discussions, and a few more that I thought of later:

- Berlin
- London
- Paris
- Amsterdam
- Kopenhagen
- Rome
- Prague
- Stockholm
- Barcelona
- any other ideas?

Yes, what about Stockton-on-Tees? If it's held there I'll come. As along as I'm allowed to argue with people such as Penn

 

[Interesting Ian]

No offense, man, but what does that say about Americans?

I don't exactly love to travel, but I'll go an extra mile (or a few thousand) to attend TAM, as well as digging up a grandmother and sell her for medical experiments to pay for the trip. Guess that doesn't apply to Americans.

We shouldn't have a TAM in Europe to accomodate people's dislike of travelling. We should have it because TAM should not be perceived as a primarily American event - it should be a global event, underlining that pseudoscience is not just an American thingie.

I think you must have meant pseudo-skepticism.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

No offense, man, but what does that say about Americans?

I don't exactly love to travel, but I'll go an extra mile (or a few thousand) to attend TAM, as well as digging up a grandmother and sell her for medical experiments to pay for the trip. Guess that doesn't apply to Americans.

We shouldn't have a TAM in Europe to accomodate people's dislike of travelling. We should have it because TAM should not be perceived as a primarily American event - it should be a global event, underlining that pseudoscience is not just an American thingie.

That Americans don't want to travel outside the US is their problem. If people want to maintain limited horizons, so be it.

Think about it: I came from Denmark, deBergerac came from Sweden, the Aussies came from Down Undah, Luciana came from Brazil, Patricio came from Chile. None of us, I believe, are particularly rich. Yet, we spend time and money to get there, wherever TAM may be.

Now, that's dedication.

(sound of raspberry)

It says nothing about Americans nor does it say anything about Europeans. It says only that travel is expensive and the further you go the more expensive it gets. I know many people from outside of the US came and I am sure that if TAM3 were held in Europe many Americans would go, barring any unexpected finiancial problems Chani and I would be among them. I am equally sure that many Europeans (and Australians, South Americans, etc.) would have like to go but couldn't afford to and that if TAM3 were held in Europe Many Americans that went this time would be unable to afford to go.

It's not a question of the desire to travel, it's a question of money, plain and simple.

 

[CFLarsen]

Yes, what about Stockton-on-Tees? If it's held there I'll come. As along as I'm allowed to argue with people such as Penn

Considering that you do not do all that well with people here, I doubt you would get two words in with Penn....

I think you must have meant pseudo-skepticism.

No, I meant pseudoscience. That's what skeptics usually apply skepticism to.

I know that you don't, but then, we are all just idiots, right?

It says nothing about Americans nor does it say anything about Europeans. It says only that travel is expensive and the further you go the more expensive it gets. I know many people from outside of the US came and I am sure that if TAM3 were held in Europe many Americans would go, barring any unexpected finiancial problems Chani and I would be among them. I am equally sure that many Europeans (and Australians, South Americans, etc.) would have like to go but couldn't afford to and that if TAM3 were held in Europe Many Americans that went this time would be unable to afford to go.

It's not a question of the desire to travel, it's a question of money, plain and simple.

You are not saying that Americans are poorer than the rest of the world, are you?

Could be interesting to find out just what percentage of JREF-Americans and JREF-NonAmericans attended TAMx.....

 

[DanishDynamite]

Cleo:

Why not organize a TAM in Europe too. Let's be realistic. Those travels are really difficult for the majority and collecting funds in Euros is not such a bad idea for JREF.

I do believe the Queen has managed to come up with a good idea.

Seriously, there is room for two TAMs per year. January in the States, July/August in Europe. Or, we could make the non-US TAM a roaming event, switching from continent to continent every year. Europe, Aussieland, South America, etc.

I'd vote for Copenhagen to honor the numerous activist skeptics that support the Foundation.I think that Denmark has the most organized skeptic groups but I am not sure about that because Germany seems pretty organized too. I--for example-- buy "Skeptic" and books from a skeptic society in Germany.

Much may be said about Cleo, but she undoubtedly has taste.

"Wonderful, wonderful Copenhagen..."

I'd propose Greece but in Greece it's the Greek Church that has an very organized Bureau against woo-wooism and we don't have any skeptic groups

The Greek Church has a movement against woo-wooism? How does that work? Are their own beliefs excempted from scrutiny?

 

[DanishDynamite]

Claus,

Stop picking on the Americans. I mean, you don't hit people wearing glasses either, do you?

 

[CFLarsen]

Claus,

Stop picking on the Americans. I mean, you don't hit people wearing glasses either, do you?

No, but I steal candy from children, and kick the crutches away from people with broken legs....

 

[headscratcher4]

You should stop picking on Americans 'cause some one just might suggest to President Bush that you've got WMD's in your back yard....

 

[Nyarlathotep]

You are not saying that Americans are poorer than the rest of the world, are you?

[/B]

No, of course not. But I am saying is that there are almost cetainly people on both sides of the Atlantic for whom it would be prohibitively expensive to travel that far and would attend a TAM if it were held near them but not otherwise, and splitting TAM into a US and a European meeting might be a good compromise.

I will fully admit that it is not an ideal solution and that problems still occur (i.e. Australians have to travel long distances to get to either one) and I have no idea if the JREF would want to devote the time and resources to holding two TAMs (probably not, now that I think about it). But there are problems with both keeping it in the US and with holding it in Europe too. Splitting it simply seems to be a good compromise to me.

Barring that, holding TAM3 in Europe seems like a good idea if for no other reasons than simple fairness and, as you said, to show that skepticism isn't just an American movement. If it were held in Europe I would vote Athens or Prague but only because I have always wanted to visit both of those cities and it certainly give me the impetus to finally do so.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Claus,

Stop picking on the Americans. I mean, you don't hit people wearing glasses either, do you?

Hey, I think I am being insulted here...

Actually, I don't feel picked on. Claus is stating his postition, I'm stating mine. As long as no one starts hurling personal insults I'm fine with that.

 

[CFLarsen]

Hey, I think I am being insulted here...

Sigh....see what I mean, dear Non-Americans? They are too friggin' stupid to know when they are being insulted!

Actually, I don't feel picked on. Claus is stating his postition, I'm stating mine. As long as no one starts hurling personal insults I'm fine with that.

Me too, you ......American!

 

[El Greco]

Here's a sneak peek at TAM3 held in the Greek island of Mykonos:

 

[headscratcher4]

What is that, an underwear convention?