Talk to me about babies and the unvaccinated.

[EHocking]

What's with your sour grapes, EH?

What sour grapes?
Instead of refuting the points I made in my reply to your last post, you suddenly decide the subject is off topic?

All I said was start a new thread.

No, rather than comment on the argument put forward, you posted a semi-libelous ad hom on the author of the paper, based only on your opinion of a site to which the author is not even associated to, but you tarred him with the same brush merely because his report was linked to. When called on it, you suddenly decided the subject was off topic.

Again, you could have started a new thread on the subject, since you seem to wish to pursue this.
I've posted all I care to on the subject.

 

[AmandaM]

Please stop fuming.

Okay But I'm still mad.

How old is your SIL? People have very bad memories about their childhoods, and family lore gets lost in the translation and retelling.

31 I think -- and although I don't doubt that MIL remembers her getting sick, again it's the "the vaccine made her do it" argument that gives me pause.

(unless your MD already knows all of this, and you have discussed it--if so, please disregard my post

No disregarding But she does know we're having a certain amount of issues in the family, and does seem to be concerned. Her answer is to limit contact, which shouldn't be all that hard.

What does the prospective father have to say about the issue?

He doesn't want to "make waves" but he also thinks we should take every precaution. I think he's waiting to see if anybody coughs around me. (He's actually still in shock a little, and I think a tiny part of him doesn't really believe that we'll ever actually deliver a healthy baby. Like I said, it's been 8 years and we'd actually both sort of accepted that it just wasn't going to happen, but this one is growing in the right place, and all looks good so far, so I'm pretty positive about it.)

FWIW, in another forum, this issue was discussed with slightly differing parties:

http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/125666.page

WOW -- that could so have been me as the OP! Some of the comments were so hateful, but I really do think a certain amount of paranoia comes with the territory.

 

[AmandaM]

It's time for you to discuss this with your hubby if you have not already. It's his family, he needs to be involved lest the family relationship suffer.

Yeah, he doesn't want to make waves, as he put it, but he does suspect this is more of a control issue than a real health concern.

I'm printing the stuff you linked and bringing it to my next doc appointment. If I have to, I'll have her write letters to the family (she is the kind of person that will do that.) The hospital staff are taking the pertussis cases VERY seriously -- and none of them have accused me of being too paranoid. Yet

Thank you so much!!! I'm already feeling better about this whole family controversy. And I stopped fuming. Now I just feel like I'm doing a lot of eye-rolling.

 

[LarianLeQuella]

the hospital already has infant cases of pertussis.

THIS! Make your in laws go to the hospital and witness this if you have to. Direct them to the Dana McCaffery web page, and insist they get their shots, or be quarantined from your house. Your baby's life should be more important than their hurt feelings. End of story.

again it's the "the vaccine made her do it" argument that gives me pause.

Amanda, no need for a pause, this is something that I keep on file for all the "it happened when we did X" stories (this mostly relates to autims diagnosis, but applies to anything):

And for all those people who have anecdotal stories remember that the correlation may seem remarkable to you because anomalies always seem remarkable when they happen to you. However, what you need to understand is that in the context of the 306 million people in the United States, anomalies are actually not only expected, it would be remarkable if they didn't occur. Here's a back of the envelope explanation why (from another blogger that frequents BA http://padraic2112.wordpress.com/2009/04/25/my-last-vaccination-post-for-a-while/):

There is a simple reason why this is not relevant, take the following facts:

* children take vaccines
* autism displays its first symptoms in childhood
* children under the age of 5 make up ~7% of the population
* there are ~306 million people in the U.S.
* about 80% of children are vaccinated entirely

This means 306 x 0.07 x .8 = 1.7 million children (roughly) have been vaccinated. With the vaccination schedule being what it is, then, there are somewhere around 100,000 children getting a shot every month (that last one is hand-wavey, it assumes a lot about frequency distributions, but that's not really germane to my point). Autism rates are estimated at anywhere between 1 in 100 and 1 in 150 children, that means we have about 17,000 diagnosis of autism. If every single one of those autism diagnosis was given to a vaccinated child (they're not, but again for our sake here it introduces very small error), and those 17,000 have a scatter distribution of vaccination patterns, that means not one, not dozens, not hundreds, but *thousands* of those diagnosis came within days or weeks of a vaccination: yes, this means that dozens will occur within an hour of a vaccination.

Put those thousands of people together on a message board (and since autism is hard to deal with, a very high percentage of these family *do* bond together, like SMA sufferers or MS or cancer or any other family-impacting disease), you'll have a few thousand people all saying to each other, "Gee... MY kid got a shot right before her symptoms started showing, too! There are thousands of us! THAT CAN'T BE A COINCIDENCE."

But you can see, it actually *isn't* a coincidence... it's exactly what we would EXPECT to happen.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

What sour grapes?
Instead of refuting the points I made in my reply to your last post, you suddenly decide the subject is off topic?
No, rather than comment on the argument put forward, you posted a semi-libelous ad hom on the author of the paper, based only on your opinion of a site to which the author is not even associated to, but you tarred him with the same brush merely because his report was linked to. When called on it, you suddenly decided the subject was off topic.

Again, you could have started a new thread on the subject, since you seem to wish to pursue this.
I've posted all I care to on the subject.

For the record, I did refute your points. If you want to take the discussion further start a thread on it.

I don't think you've presented a convincing case that shaken baby syndrome is a fabricated diagnosis. You cited an attorney who takes child abuse cases as your source that the syndrome does not occur. You cited something claiming the diagnosis was never based on physical findings and that simply isn't true.

I don't have an issue with the shaken baby syndrome diagnosis. You are the one who made the claim you buy into the fringe position. There are always professionals willing to testify in defense of child abusers for a fee.

OTOH, I am well aware of the witch hunts like the McMartin Preschool and the Little Rascals Daycare cases where ridiculous charges of child abuse were taken seriously by otherwise intelligent people.

What you presented looks to me like the fringe position for a fee, not the witch hunt position.


People bring up side positions that are off topic in threads all the time. If the side issue can be dealt with by a couple comments, then they don't need a new thread. But once a person decides they want a more lengthy discussion on a SIDE TRACK, then it is rude to hijack the thread. Surely 3,000+ posts suggests you should know that thread hijacks are RUDE, and against the rules, I believe.

From the membership agreement:

11. You will not deliberately attempt to derail threads...

Housekeeping (IE not in the rules section)
These are additional actions that the Moderating Team may take that are not intended as punitive towards any Member. They are intended to help ensure that the Forum is easy to use, navigate and to keep discussions flowing. These actions will usually be noted with a blue "Info Box" rather than a red "Mod Box".E9

H1. Off topic posts may be moved to new threads. While some thread drift is to be expected, threads can end up with multiple separate discussions running in parallel. In such cases some posts may be split to one or more new threads to make them easier to find and follow. Members can request for such derails to be split to a new thread.

(emphasis mine)

 

[EHocking]

...You cited an attorney who takes child abuse cases as your source that the syndrome does not occur.

Just for the record. I did not. I quoted the doctor's report.

You cited something claiming the diagnosis was never based on physical findings and that simply isn't true.

Just for the record, the report does not say this. You are misrepresenting the Dr's report.

I don't have an issue with the shaken baby syndrome diagnosis. You are the one who made the claim you buy into the fringe position.

Stop misrepresenting my posts and I will stop this discussion. I did not claim I bought into it, I merely quoted dissenting papers.

There are always professionals willing to testify in defense of child abusers for a fee.

Ad hom. Since when does being a expert witness in court have any affect on a person's professional qualifications? I guess the expert witness for the Prosecuton is equally unqualified by this logic - because he's paid...

OTOH, I am well aware of the witch hunts like the McMartin Preschool and the Little Rascals Daycare cases where ridiculous charges of child abuse were taken seriously by otherwise intelligent people.

What you presented looks to me like the fringe position for a fee, not the witch hunt position.

You claim this is off topic, even quoting the Membership Agreement and yet you continue to post on the subject.

People bring up side positions that are off topic in threads all the time. If the side issue can be dealt with by a couple comments, then they don't need a new thread. But once a person decides they want a more lengthy discussion on a SIDE TRACK, then it is rude to hijack the thread. Surely 3,000+ posts suggests you should know that thread hijacks are RUDE, and against the rules, I believe.

From the membership agreementemphasis mine)

You should pay some attention to the MA and stop pursuing the subject in this thread then.

As will I.

Unless you misrepresent my posts in such a manner as you did in your last post.

 

[Emet]

No disregarding But she does know we're having a certain amount of issues in the family, and does seem to be concerned. Her answer is to limit contact, which shouldn't be all that hard.

Perfect. Tell the family you're acting on the advice of your doctor.

He doesn't want to "make waves" but he also thinks we should take every precaution. I think he's waiting to see if anybody coughs around me. (He's actually still in shock a little, and I think a tiny part of him doesn't really believe that we'll ever actually deliver a healthy baby. Like I said, it's been 8 years and we'd actually both sort of accepted that it just wasn't going to happen, but this one is growing in the right place, and all looks good so far, so I'm pretty positive about it.)

Well, I'm single... so I don't really have any advice worth stating... other than I think you two should discuss it and come to a mutual decision with how to handle his family. IMO, your family (you, him, and the baby) should come first. But family relations can be so bloody complicated.

 

[Vic Vega]

Now I'm not planning on sending my 8-week old kid to the park to play with other kids, but is there a certain general "safe" age at which I won't be afraid to let my child be breathed upon by strangers who might be infected with who knows what? Should I keep her away from other kids/babies for 6 months? 12 months?

FWIW, two of my uncles are pediatricians and both of them gave me the same advice.

They said that when babies are newborns they should not be held by too many people and should stay away from crowds of people for the first month or so. It's also a good idea to have people wash their hands before holding the baby. You don't have to go nuts about it. You can do things like go to the grocery store (or the liquor store ) and not worry about your baby catching a fatal disease. The world just isn't that dangerous a place for newborns anymore... At least not where most of us live.

After that initial month, when the baby's immune system is stronger, you can pretty much take the baby anywhere. Frankly, we never really worried much about it with our kids and they have both been very healthy.

(My 14 year-old is in upstairs in bed with a 102 fever as I type this of course...)



One word of advice, if I may. No offense, AmandaM, but you sound like the type of parent who might dress your baby in an Arctic-grade snowsuit well into June... Resist the temptation. Once the kid is not a newborn anymore, if you're comfortable, the baby's comfortable.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....
You claim this is off topic, even quoting the Membership Agreement and yet you continue to post on the subject......

 

[Giraffe107]

As a side question, I'm also pregnant. I have had all my boosters prior to becoming pregnant, but my husband has not. The hospital will give a whooping cough vaccine to him when the baby arrives. Should he get measles/chicken pox boosters to ensure he doesn't carry anything or is this overkill?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

As a side question, I'm also pregnant. I have had all my boosters prior to becoming pregnant, but my husband has not. The hospital will give a whooping cough vaccine to him when the baby arrives. Should he get measles/chicken pox boosters to ensure he doesn't carry anything or is this overkill?

Need more info.

What year was he born? Has he had 2 MMRs? Did he have chicken pox as a child?

Why is the hospital waiting until the baby's birth to vaccinate hubby? What month is the baby due?

 

[Chris Haynes]

...
I'm printing the stuff you linked and bringing it to my next doc appointment. If I have to, I'll have her write letters to the family (she is the kind of person that will do that.) The hospital staff are taking the pertussis cases VERY seriously -- and none of them have accused me of being too paranoid. Yet

....

Well, at a minimum you can insist that those who have not had a Tdap wear a mask around your newborn. It is worth a shot. (sorry )

 

[Deetee]

+1

 

[Deetee]

As a side question, I'm also pregnant. I have had all my boosters prior to becoming pregnant, but my husband has not. The hospital will give a whooping cough vaccine to him when the baby arrives. Should he get measles/chicken pox boosters to ensure he doesn't carry anything or is this overkill?

He could get his TDaP booster now - why wait?
The rest is, as you suggest, overkill. He is likely to be immune to those naturally (or through measles vax) anyway.

 

[AmandaM]

One word of advice, if I may. No offense, AmandaM, but you sound like the type of parent who might dress your baby in an Arctic-grade snowsuit well into June... Resist the temptation. Once the kid is not a newborn anymore, if you're comfortable, the baby's comfortable.

No offense taken And I really trying not to be paranoid. I swear I wasn't 3 months ago!! When they say your life changes when you have a baby, they're right, but "they" should also tell you that your whole perspective changes. I have a feeling my fears will "settle down" a bit after it's born (or at least my REACTION to them will) but for now everybody seems either lethal or a potential predator.

And the bolded part is going to be extra hard for me, since I'm a knitter LOL!

 

[Giraffe107]

Need more info.

What year was he born? Has he had 2 MMRs? Did he have chicken pox as a child?

Why is the hospital waiting until the baby's birth to vaccinate hubby? What month is the baby due?

He was born 1985. He had all the normal childhood vaccines. The hospital provides the vaccine for free for all parents and close relatives at birth.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

He was born 1985. He had all the normal childhood vaccines. The hospital provides the vaccine for free for all parents and close relatives at birth.

Sigh..., not enough information so I guess I need to give you the long answer.

Look at the graph in the this paper. If you are in the northern hemisphere and your baby will be due in low pertussis months, take advantage of the free vaccine dose. If your baby is due during months pertussis is expected to occur (best to look at your local statistics) then spend the money and have him get the vaccination before the delivery if the hospital only offers it after delivery. It should be less than $50.

In 1991 the practice of giving 2 MMRs was established. If hubby went to college in the US, most require students get that second MMR.

It's kind of an odd consideration. It's not that people need MMR boosters. It's that with one dose the vaccine failure rate is about 5% and half that if the second dose is given. So the recommendation one gets that second MMR has been made based on where outbreaks have occurred: colleges and health care facilities. The additional group that definitely needs another MMR are those who had their vaccine dose before they were 12 months old. The recommended age of 15 months changed in the late 70s. So a child born in the 80s would normally have had the MMR at or after 15 months of age.

If the MMR's free, and the hospital offers it, getting the second dose is reasonable. That doesn't mean everyone needs to run out and get their second MMR. Most people who get measles today either were not vaccinated or they were vaccinated in 1967 or earlier with the killed vaccine in use from 63 to 68. That vaccine would have worn off. For people born prior to 1956, most people are immune because they had measles, it's that contagious.

Don't sweat all those details. Bottom line, for people born in the 80s who had their routine childhood vaccines, that 2nd MMR is nice but not critical or your highest priority.

You didn't answer the chicken pox question. If one's parents recall one had chicken pox, they probably did, not to worry. But about 30% of cases have no rash, so some people have had it and don't know it. About 90% of people have had chicken pox by the age of 19 and almost everyone will have had it by age 30.

The options are then, if you had chicken pox, no action is needed. If you are over age 30, you probably don't have much to worry about. (Note this will change as kids vaccinated today change those numbers. So it is always good to check current recommendations on these things.)
If you are under age 30 and don't know your chicken pox history, then a blood test is worthwhile because for most adults, it will show immunity.
If the blood test is negative, get the vaccine. These recommendations are true for all adults under age 30. Chicken pox can be much worse for an adult than for a child.

Infants are at risk of chicken pox mostly only when infection occurs in the mother while pregnant or very close to delivery. For moms who have had chicken pox, maternal antibody tends to be protective for the first few months of life.


Antibodies and infections are not all the same. Some antibodies are protective and others are not.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

He could get his TDaP booster now - why wait?
The rest is, as you suggest, overkill. He is likely to be immune to those naturally (or through measles vax) anyway.

Just a nitpik that I'm sure wouldn't interest anybody outside of a small circle of friends...

Tdap and TDaP are two different vaccines. The tetanus is the same in both. The diphtheria component is larger in the children's vaccine, thus the upper case D vs the lower case d in the adult vaccine name. The 'a' stands for acellular and both vaccines now use that type. Older vaccines were referred to as DPT because they were not the acellular version. And the P vs p is the same as with the diphtheria component, the childhood vaccine has more pertussis antigen in it thus the upper case P.

 

[pgwenthold]

FWIW, two of my uncles are pediatricians and both of them gave me the same advice.

They said that when babies are newborns they should not be held by too many people and should stay away from crowds of people for the first month or so. It's also a good idea to have people wash their hands before holding the baby.

I'm late to this party, but want to reiterate the part I bolded.

You have every right to insist that people do things like wash their hands before holding your child. Heck, it's a good idea for you to be in the habit of doing it. The first thing I do when I walk in the door at night is wash my hands.

And I will note from experience, I have never encountered anyone who has had any objections or even dirty looks when asked to wash their hands before holding the baby.

As for vaccinating, you are doing the right thing by insisting that others get their pertussis booster. I concur with you, I am DEATHLY afraid of pertussis, and want to minimize any chances of getting it (pertussis vaccination is among the least effective, and therefore we must rely on the immunity of as many as possible).

I haven't made it to the end of the thread, and so don't know the punchline, but I hope you stick to your guns and it works out.

 

[BenBurch]

Parents who do not vaccinate should have parental rights revoked, and wages garnished to pay for foster care.