Taking Down Determinism

[H'ethetheth]

Huh? I am saying that plane geometry can be defined in the space-time of our universe. I am sure that that has already happened.

Yes, it can be defined, but the space does not exist in this universe. Only your conception of it exists.

So then, the roundness of things is not to be confused with the roundness of circles.

In general, that wouldn't be a problem in the least. When you order an axle that's supposed to fit in a very precise bore, you might start to think about it. In this discussion it's quite essential not to confuse the map for the territory.

An approximation of Pi works for my proof also.

No it does not. The number that appears looks like 3.14159 only because space-time happens not to be all that curvy, and at least in the large scale, as good as continuous.
By the way, how would you measure the precise circumference of the earth? Have you heard of the coastline problem?

 

[epix]

and confirmed what I said

"Pi has a value that is not determined by any physical state of the universe."

But me thinking and the Wiki contributor on the subject thinking and saying that Pi can be isolated from various formulae (note the educated plural ), so the value of Pi can be confirmed via some physical properties of the universe, like

area = 2pi*r
area/2r = pi

I guess there is some inflection to the word "determine" that went by me unnoticed. Do you mean that there is no way that any conceivable change the universe has gone and will go through could alter the value of Pi?

 

[Bill Thompson 75]

It exists as a conceived set of existing positions in space, given the assumption that space-time is a continuum, and given the assumption that it is possible to determine the center of gravity of the sun with infinite precision.
It exists in the same way as the portrait of Donald Duck inscribed in that circle.

Go on then: Why and how does it?
Isn't it a specific geometrical arrangement that is quite independent of whether or not it was ever conceived?

The point is that anyone can draw a circle but no one or no object can control, influence, determine, decide, or change the value of Pi for a plane geometric circle. However, we can know it and use it to chart a course of action.

 

[Bill Thompson 75]

Yes, it can be defined, but the space does not exist in this universe. Only your conception of it exists.

Hmmm, I think you just fell off the deep end.

In general, that wouldn't be a problem in the least. When you order an axle that's supposed to fit in a very precise bore, you might start to think about it. In this discussion it's quite essential not to confuse the map for the territory.

But do you know which is which?

No it does not. The number that appears looks like 3.14159 only because space-time happens not to be all that curvy, and at least in the large scale, as good as continuous.

An approximation is still intrinsic to the shape and the value is independent of the physical universe.

By the way, how would you measure the precise circumference of the earth? Have you heard of the coastline problem?

By the way, have you heard of "going off topic"?

 

[H'ethetheth]

The point is that anyone can draw a circle but no one or no object can control, influence, determine, decide, or change the value of Pi for a plane geometric circle. However, we can know it and use it to chart a course of action.

Yes, just like no one can control, influence, determine, decide, or change the fact that socrates is mortal in a universe where socrates is a man, and all men are mortal. However, we can know it, and use it to be sure he dies when we kill him.

 

[Bill Thompson 75]

But me thinking and the Wiki contributor on the subject thinking and saying that Pi can be isolated from various formulae (note the educated plural ), so the value of Pi can be confirmed via some physical properties of the universe, like

area = 2pi*r
area/2r = pi

Many formulae (it's cool) reveal the value of Pi, but none determine it.

I guess there is some inflection to the word "determine" that went by me unnoticed. Do you mean that there is no way that any conceivable change the universe has gone and will go through could alter the value of Pi?

That is correct.

 

[H'ethetheth]

But do you know which is which?

Yes, it's quite simple when you think about it; The circle is a map of a round thing.

An approximation is still intrinsic to the shape and the value is independent of the physical universe.

Except that in this universe, round things don't approximate pi, but something else that depends on the local curvature of space. In a strongly curved space you wouldn't know a round thing, or pi, if you stumbled over it. Nothing intrinsic about it.

By the way, have you heard of "going off topic"?

Yes. By the way, have you heard there is a brand of cars named Dodge?

 

[Bill Thompson 75]

Yes, just like no one can control, influence, determine, decide, or change the fact that socrates is mortal in a universe where socrates is a man, and all men are mortal. However, we can know it, and use it to be sure he dies when we kill him.

Exactly, and when we add in the part of my proof not included here we can see the sense of it:
Pi does not come from the physical universe and Socrates does.

Further, if you prove that Socrates is mortal with 3.1415 ounces of poison then his death is non-deterministically caused.

 

[H'ethetheth]

The point is that anyone can draw a circle but no one or no object can control, influence, determine, decide, or change the value of Pi for a plane geometric circle. However, we can know it and use it to chart a course of action.

Yes, just like no one can control, influence, determine, decide, or change the fact that socrates is mortal in a universe where socrates is a man, and all men are mortal. However, we can know it, and use it to be sure he dies when we kill him.

In fact, a better comparison would be a universe where all men are Irish, and Socrates is a man.

The distinction being that this universe is a different one than ours.

It's intrinsic! Socrates is Irish!

 

[Bill Thompson 75]

Yes, it's quite simple when you think about it; The circle is a map of a round thing.

Except that in this universe, round things don't approximate pi, but something else that depends on the local curvature of space. In a strongly curved space you wouldn't know a round thing, or pi, if you stumbled over it. Nothing intrinsic about it.

Any value that is intrinsic to a shape, regardless of the curvature of space, will do fine.

Yes. By the way, have you heard there is a brand of cars named Dodge?

I just heard of one driven by a troll.

 

[H'ethetheth]

Exactly, and when we add in the part of my proof not included here we can see the sense of it.

Pi does not come from the physical universe and Socrates does.

No! pi is comes from the assumptions just as Socrates undeniable Irishness does.

And both are based on assumptions that do not accurately describe our universe.

 

[H'ethetheth]

I just heard of one driven by a troll.

I can disprove that hypothesis easily by accepting you are unable to understand the foundations of deductive logic and leaving this thread.

QED

 

[Bill Thompson 75]

No! pi is comes from the assumptions just as Socrates undeniable Irishness does.

And both are based on assumptions that do not accurately describe our universe.

I have already explained that Pi is intrinsic to the shape, irregardless of the assumptions.

The universe is irrelevant.

 

[Bill Thompson 75]

I can disprove that hypothesis easily by accepting you are unable to understand the foundations of deductive logic and leaving this thread.

QED

Disprove that you are driving away in a dodge!

 

[Dr.Sid]

We don't need to rerun the universe if we can prove determinism is false to begin with.

How ? I universe seemed non-deterministic, it does not mean it is deterministic based on hidden variables. We don't perceive hole universe, so there still can be things which govern what seems random to us.

 

[Bill Thompson 75]

How ? I universe seemed non-deterministic, it does not mean it is deterministic based on hidden variables. We don't perceive hole universe, so there still can be things which govern what seems random to us.

We can know that some things which produce causality in our universe are not themselves caused by anything in our universe. Thus, the universe has causality, but it is not deterministic causality.

 

[Dr.Sid]

We can know that some things which produce causality in our universe are not themselves caused by anything in our universe. Thus, the universe has causality, but it is not deterministic causality.

I don't understand 'things which produce causality' .. there either is complete causality, or there isn't. I don't care at the moment how universe has it or hasn't. Causality is not made, and certainly not by any 'things'.

 

[Bill Thompson 75]

I don't understand 'things which produce causality' ..

Interpret "produce causality" as "causally produce effects".

there either is complete causality, or there isn't.

There is no conclusive evidence of this dichotomy.
There are different sources of causality in our universe, and there is no definitive evidence that processes that cause effects are perfect or that true random events do not occur.

I don't care at the moment how universe has it or hasn't. Causality is not made, and certainly not by any 'things'.

 

[epix]

Originally Posted by epix
I guess there is some inflection to the word "determine" that went by me unnoticed. Do you mean that there is no way that any conceivable change the universe has gone and will go through could alter the value of Pi?

That is correct.

That's a conclusion identical to the one of me typing right now knowing that this activity can hardly determine the result of the next Chelsea - Liverpool match.

 

[Bill Thompson 75]

That's a conclusion identical to the one of me typing right now knowing that this activity can hardly determine the result of the next Chelsea - Liverpool match.

Not even close.