Taking Down Determinism

[Bill Thompson 75]

I think it's fair to say that any argument based on the digits of pi is using circular reasoning.

Dave

Thank you for the straight line. I will now go off on a tangent.

 

[Bill Thompson 75]

...because pi didn't exist in the previous state of the universe?

Yes, it can be the basis for caused action but it does not come from causation.

 

[Bill Thompson 75]

I agree that his arguments are logically flawed; but not in quite the way that you argue. Your statement that "a man who is absent is an absent person" is not actually an equivalent statement, since your statement involves two identical identities, whereas his statement involves a set and a sub-set of identities.

Take the first part of his statement, "A system that contains non-deterministic action". This statement does not explicitly exclude deterministic action; it could, in fact, be a system that contains both deterministic and non-deterministic action. Nowhere do any of his arguments demonstrate that if some non-deterministic actions exist, therefore no deterministic actions will take place.

Thus, his conclusion that such a system is non-deterministic is fundamentally flawed, hoist upon the petard of his own faulty logic...since if by his definition a universe that can contain non-deterministic actions cannot be deterministic, then logically one must also argue that a universe that can contain determinisitic actions (as must be logically possible in his theoretical universe) cannot be non-deterministic.

The very best conclusion one could reach, if one accepted the proposition that non-deterministic actions take place, would be "In a system that contains non-deterministic action, non-deterministic actions are possible." And, of course, once we do that, we truly do have the entirely circular kind of logic that you were pointing out above.

You nearly had a good argument but lost it at the end.
If you accept my definition of determinism then any single non-deterministic action renders the universe non-deterministic. This does not mean that deterministic causality does not still exist, it merely means that it is no longer the only kind of causality. It may still be possible to follow some deterministic causality backwards through previous states.
There is no circularity.

 

[Bill Thompson 75]

However, the decision to do that, in your mind, might be deterministic. Since pi is fixed, the whole ball of wax remains deterministic.

Is pi truly non-deterministic? Insofar as you pick a digit to blink, you're really just picking a fixed number. Might as well pick from the number 123456789012345... You don't, offhand, know what the 124th of that sequence is, though, like pi, you could calculate a formula for it.

Calculating Pi, reading Pi, thinking about Pi are all deterministic actions. However, the digit within Pi that you act upon does not originate from a deterministic action. Pi being a constant is immaterial.

If you create a number that number would be deterministic. Pi is not a created value.

 

[Bill Thompson 75]

Actually, I think that non-deterministic is usually defined as including a mix of both deterministic and non-deterministic actions. Using your definitions, there would have to be three possible states: Deterministic, Non-deterministic and Mixed.

This is true.
A completely non-deterministic universe would have no causality.
As I previously mentioned and as I have proven, the universe can have a mix of deterministic and non-deterministic causality, which renders the the universe as a whole non-deterministic.

 

[Bill Thompson 75]

I was puzzled by this as well. Most of us were born into a world which contained, as far as we could determine, a pure randomising factor. There are people who don't like this for philosophical reasons, but the evidence is that the universe is non-deterministic, end of.

I have not as yet been able to find the pure randomizing factor.

 

[Bill Thompson 75]

So, the value of Pi is not caused by the very shape and behavior of the universe?

No, plane geometry is independent of the geometry of our universe.

The fact that George Washington was our first President, being information, was not caused by George Washington actually having been our first president?

No. I implicitly exclude synchronicity as a form of causality from my proof.

I don't believe the universe is deterministic, but I don't think your reasoning provides any logical proof of it.

Where do you think it breaks down?

 

[Bill Thompson 75]

Causal does not equal determined.

Determinism is the view that causality is absolute in the universe.

 

[epix]

A Theorem is a "formula, proposition, or statement in mathematics or logic deduced or to be deduced from other formulas or propositions." www.merriam-webster.com

Your analogy is false. Would you say that "an object which contains sets is itself a set" is circular?

That's a wrong analogy on your part. A set is not a proposition -- it's just data particularly organized. A circular fallacy applies to logical constructs, such as the theorem.

Anyway . . . Your theorems are false unless you prove otherwise. Since the only "active part" in them is the word "non-deterministic," I wish you good luck with the proof.

 

[Robin]

Determinism is the view that causality is absolute in the universe.

In which case Determinism died 200 years earlier, in the 18th century, with David Hume.

 

[epix]

In which case Determinism died 200 years earlier, in the 18th century, with David Hume.

You mean like that the autopsy couldn't determine the cause of the death?

 

[Ocelot]

Yes, it can be the basis for caused action but it does not come from causation.

You what?
You what?
You what, you what, you what?

 

[Dave Rogers]

Personally, I can't see how a series of actions that inevitably always produces the same result can be sensibly described as non-deterministic.

Dave

 

[H'ethetheth]

No, plane geometry is independent of the geometry of our universe.

So it is caused by assuming plane geometry then; it is implied by the chosen rules of logic and the chosen axioms.

 

[Dancing David]

Determinism is the view that causality is absolute in the universe.

Some is and some isn't, it is unknown is QM is deterministic (in that sense) or just causal in some unknown fashion.

Absolutes only exist in philosophy.

 

[Dancing David]

So it is caused by assuming plane geometry then; it is implied by the chosen rules of logic and the chosen axioms.

I was thinking along similar lines... especially in saddle shaped geometries.

 

[MattusMaximus]

I think it's fair to say that any argument based on the digits of pi is using circular reasoning.

Dave

Zing! Wins thread

 

[westprog]

I have not as yet been able to find the pure randomizing factor.

Then you should read a bit about modern physics. The random nature of quantum events is pretty well established for nearly a century.

 

[The Man]

No, Pi is not caused by the value of Pi being consistent. That is not causality.

So if the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter were not consistent, PI would still have the same value?

As a circle is defined as a collection of points all satisfying the equation R²= x² + y². Technically a circle (thus its circumference and PI) is the result of the radius being constant in that equation. A formal cause and a Necessary cause.

As others have noted it is a result of the chosen rules and definitions, one of which being the definition of a circle equating the coordinates of the points along its circumference to its radius.

I explained why the premise is true and the theorems explain why the conclusion is true. That is the opposite of begging the question.

Your premise contains your conclusion, that there are non-deterministic aspects of our universe. That is exactly begging the question.

 

[nvidiot]

And stop me if I'm wrong, but isn't pi an abstract description of something, not a "something" in and of itself? Can I hold a ring? Yes.... Can I hold the pi of the ring? I don't think so....