Phrost
The Fighting Skeptic
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2003
- Messages
- 1,653
"American Kickboxing" was a karate-derrived sport that had to adopt rules about a minimum number of kicks because low-ranked boxers were going into the sport and cleaning house.
Most "Kickboxing" nowadays is more along the lines of K1, where you're not limited to throwing kicks just above the waist, and can use knees in the clinch.
Most "Kickboxing" nowadays is more along the lines of K1, where you're not limited to throwing kicks just above the waist, and can use knees in the clinch.
Most BJJers opinions about the taijiquan world are ignorant and irrelevant. Your opinion is about as valid as mine (which is to say, not at all).
You've basically just said that the color red isn't really blue. You're right of course that push hands is not sparring. But the taijiquan people know this, in fact most state this, and don't practice push hands for sparring. The ones who practice sparring actually spar. It is probably not very frequent, and they probably aren't interesting in sport/entertainment fighting. In short, their goals are probably not your goals.
Again, you're just presenting your opinion. You're also assuming that such a training method of 'spar all the time, full contact, full resistance' is worth the probably higher rate of injuries, and that fighting is all people hope to get out of martial arts. You're probably somewhat wrong on all those counts.
The history of martial arts is somewhat against you too, however, where many respected practicioners value this training highly, with good results. Kano sent students to Ueshiba for example. Why on Earth would he do that if Ueshiba was teaching garbage?
Some cops get taught aikido. Why?
Zheng Manqing was the head of China's equivalent of West Point, teaching them taijiquan. How did that happen?
Why does your website have a 'martial arts in the news' section with many articles about successful use of karate (for example) in real life situations if most of what they practice is garbage?
Why does the Korean military practice taekwondo? Are they all idiots, according to you, because they can't understand your believe that MMA training is superior?
Should millions of Chinese practice full-contat MMA in the parks in the morning?
Should little kids be choking each other out?
How can one really train with full contant using real weapons? We don't all do unarmed martial arts. Do you make fun of people using wooden or foam swords? Are they larping? How do you suggest they spar 'for real' without killing or seriously injuring themselves?
Why do you practice on a padded surface? Should you fight 'for real' and ditch the safety? Ditch the wraps on the wrist and gloves so your wrist and fingers won't break? Ditch the mouthpiece?
Why do events have dozens of rules?
You're not making much sense here. He's talking about real life self defense, and you refer to sporting/entertainment events with dozens of rules and completely different situations.
Using your logic, if we just go by UFC1-5, we'd "reason" that groin shots are ineffective going by the Hackney/Joe San (or whoever it was) fight, something which most rational people understand to not be the case. There's even a compilation video of UFC-ish events where groin shots made the referee stop the match momentarily so the afflicted person could recover. We also understand there is a market for groin protectors. We also understand basic human anatomy. We also have personal experience getting struck there. So therefore, we get 1 + 1 = 2, and we understand groin shots to be good for self defense.
What you gotta ask is why has there always been rules, and why is the list getting longer and longer?
You can have as many years of sport/entertainment you'd like, as long as I can have thousands and thousands of years of real life application.
Is this anything like 'Gracie lost but Gracie jiu-jitsu won!'? Nevermind that one could just as well have said that judo won, or just about any other grappling art won.
I gotta say, so far in this discussion you seem to be the only one believing people practice kata to exclusively prepare them for a fight as a strawman, then attempting to knock it down.
Why sport/entertainment agreed upon fights with no real threats and dozens of rules, amateur at that, should be of any concern to unplanned real self defense with real threats and no rules is somewhat of a mystery.
Bullshido Members: 16,513
E-budo Members: 17,160
Martial Arts Planet Members: 24,187
How are you defining "largest" exactly?
And anyone can start their own webpage and give themselves "Editor", "Director", "Grand Puba", or whatever title they'd like. I don't see how that has any bearing on anything.
Bullshido is a recognized troll pit, with many aggressoid members and moderators that edit posts that have broken no rules, and you could care less, in fact you endorse it. Call me a troll, that hurts my e-feelings, but at least I'd never stoop so low as to edit posts, then modify ones account so they cannot post, when the person has done nothing but express his opinion on martial arts... and then go around saying I am a critical thinker.
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Most BJJers opinions about the taijiquan world are ignorant and irrelevant. Your opinion is about as valid as mine (which is to say, not at all).
You've basically just said that the color red isn't really blue. You're right of course that push hands is not sparring. But the taijiquan people know this, in fact most state this, and don't practice push hands for sparring. The ones who practice sparring actually spar. It is probably not very frequent, and they probably aren't interesting in sport/entertainment fighting. In short, their goals are probably not your goals.
Again, you're just presenting your opinion. You're also assuming that such a training method of 'spar all the time, full contact, full resistance' is worth the probably higher rate of injuries, and that fighting is all people hope to get out of martial arts. You're probably somewhat wrong on all those counts.
The history of martial arts is somewhat against you too, however, where many respected practicioners value this training highly, with good results. Kano sent students to Ueshiba for example. Why on Earth would he do that if Ueshiba was teaching garbage?
Some cops get taught aikido. Why?
Zheng Manqing was the head of China's equivalent of West Point, teaching them taijiquan. How did that happen?
Why does your website have a 'martial arts in the news' section with many articles about successful use of karate (for example) in real life situations if most of what they practice is garbage?
Why does the Korean military practice taekwondo? Are they all idiots, according to you, because they can't understand your believe that MMA training is superior?
Should millions of Chinese practice full-contat MMA in the parks in the morning?
Should little kids be choking each other out?
How can one really train with full contant using real weapons? We don't all do unarmed martial arts. Do you make fun of people using wooden or foam swords? Are they larping? How do you suggest they spar 'for real' without killing or seriously injuring themselves?
Why do you practice on a padded surface? Should you fight 'for real' and ditch the safety? Ditch the wraps on the wrist and gloves so your wrist and fingers won't break? Ditch the mouthpiece?
Why do events have dozens of rules?
You're not making much sense here. He's talking about real life self defense, and you refer to sporting/entertainment events with dozens of rules and completely different situations.
Using your logic, if we just go by UFC1-5, we'd "reason" that groin shots are ineffective going by the Hackney/Joe San (or whoever it was) fight, something which most rational people understand to not be the case. There's even a compilation video of UFC-ish events where groin shots made the referee stop the match momentarily so the afflicted person could recover. We also understand there is a market for groin protectors. We also understand basic human anatomy. We also have personal experience getting struck there. So therefore, we get 1 + 1 = 2, and we understand groin shots to be good for self defense.
What you gotta ask is why has there always been rules, and why is the list getting longer and longer?
You can have as many years of sport/entertainment you'd like, as long as I can have thousands and thousands of years of real life application.
Is this anything like 'Gracie lost but Gracie jiu-jitsu won!'? Nevermind that one could just as well have said that judo won, or just about any other grappling art won.
I gotta say, so far in this discussion you seem to be the only one believing people practice kata to exclusively prepare them for a fight as a strawman, then attempting to knock it down.
Why sport/entertainment agreed upon fights with no real threats and dozens of rules, amateur at that, should be of any concern to unplanned real self defense with real threats and no rules is somewhat of a mystery.
Bullshido Members: 16,513
E-budo Members: 17,160
Martial Arts Planet Members: 24,187
How are you defining "largest" exactly?
And anyone can start their own webpage and give themselves "Editor", "Director", "Grand Puba", or whatever title they'd like. I don't see how that has any bearing on anything.
Bullshido is a recognized troll pit, with many aggressoid members and moderators that edit posts that have broken no rules, and you could care less, in fact you endorse it. Call me a troll, that hurts my e-feelings, but at least I'd never stoop so low as to edit posts, then modify ones account so they cannot post, when the person has done nothing but express his opinion on martial arts... and then go around saying I am a critical thinker.
Youn seem to be about the only person on this forum talking any martial sense!!!!
Kevin_Lowe
Unregistered
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2003
- Messages
- 12,221
That's the last nail in the coffin, I think. When someone is looking up to TC as an expert on martial arts you know they're totally out of touch with reality.
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2001
- Messages
- 34,530
Kevin Lowe is correct. This is especially true when that person simply quotes the ENTIRE text of a half-page post just to say "right on."
Wudang
BOFH
"Zheng Manqing was the head of China's equivalent of West Point, teaching them taijiquan. How did that happen?"
He was a TCM practitioner treating Sun Yat-Sen's wife and a long-time member of the Kuomintang.
He was a TCM practitioner treating Sun Yat-Sen's wife and a long-time member of the Kuomintang.
Phrost
The Fighting Skeptic
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2003
- Messages
- 1,653
The admins here should probably check to see if this guy is a sock puppet of Tai Chi's.
Mouthfire
Critical Thinker
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2004
- Messages
- 330
Oh dear... did he just call praise TC for his martial sense?!?
By all means, then after you are done giving advice, maybe you could defend your stance of being a martial arts bully apparently more concerned with others' training than your own?
It's not an entirely unreasonable request, is it?
You have used quite a number of sock puppets before. Even after you knew that it was against the rules to do so. And was subsequently suspended for doing so.
Right?
Mouthfire
Critical Thinker
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2004
- Messages
- 330
Ouch... that's pretty low, me thinks....
Even *I* wouldn't have thought Tai Chi would be that desperate....
Phrost
The Fighting Skeptic
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2003
- Messages
- 1,653
Wait, was that to me? I have him on ignore so I don't see what he posts. We've established that he's immune to common sense on Bullshido so there's no real point in discussing anything with him unless you just want to practice your typing skills and/or increase your post count.
I must have really pissed you off.
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2001
- Messages
- 34,530
It's a pet-peeve of mine. It's absolutely stupid to quote a large post in it's entirety just to say "right on."
Correct.
MasterBlaster
New Blood
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2006
- Messages
- 7
I also have a website so on that we are tied, but I’m not an amateur sports fighter but it would take about a day to be one. That being said, I have studied multiple martial arts for just over 29 years and have black belts in four with one being second dan. I’ve worked as as a personal body guard in Miami where I've also "bounced" at the Clevelander for two years. Nothing special happened as a body guard other than restraining people but in the Clevelander one of our guys got killed by a coked out guy on new years eve when he slashed his throat from behind, i was attached in the lot after work buy a guy with a golf club that pi***d me off so much I thought about driving his head into the corner of the marble bench(but I degress). We fought every night and on weekends, labor day, memorial day, news years, super bowl, etc it was many times more. These were real fights but instead of mats, refs and rules there were concrete, bad guys and no rules. I have a scar on my elbow from a broken bottle, you practice with broken bottles? I sure as hell didn't.
I've been a personal trainer since I was twenty and am certified in three national organization. Now I'm going back to school to get my doctorate in Chinese medicine because i realized that the four year masters program (my under grad is a psych/bio combo) leaves one with more questions than answers. It still works but a lot of the why it works is what I'm learning now.
Reminds me of "Hate the player not the game." Don't worry it won't belong before schools will be opening up with instructors doing your MMA with no more training than having a website and watching all the UFC's. Mark my words.
That is not what you said but I was just playing with your mess up anyway.
You say you have a problem with Tai Chi but not with effectiveness of Tai Chi's movements? You must have caught how silly you sounded and tried to correct mid thought. I'm guessing you are re-saying you don't like how Tai Chi is taught, even though you already said it. Now are you also saying that you have done extensive research on teaching Tai Chi teaching style from around the world?
I'm just guessing here but I would put money on the high probability that many of today’s race car drivers sat in there dad's car pretending to drive. Maybe not NASCAR since you really only need to turn left.
This training isn't garbage, it's just a stage in the training. An intermediate levlif you will. This is often taught this way in MMA schools as well before one is "let loose" on the mat. Buy saying that statement you are also saying that MMA traing is garbage.
No pun taken.
What facts do you deal with? If it didn't happen in the UfC it's not fact? Pehaps they (you?) just don't know how to correctly do small joint manipulation. Instead of running away from new (to you) ideas, learn so techniques and try it nextime you on the mat. You have to restain the wrist and work the fingers with the other if they are sweaty and if they have a closed fist and you can't get a finger, hold the wrist agaist your body and press the bent thumb (don't straighten it) towards the elbow.
TKD's grappling is the same you use in MMA, arm bar, hammerlock, chokes, sleeper etc. So does that mean MMA's grappling is also garbage.
How about the propaganda that if you suck down xenadrine you to can be a ultimate fighter. Doesn't even mention sticking steroids in your ass.
That might hold water if these grappling techniques didn't come out years before anyone even heard of MMA. It’s in go jo ryu, chito ryu etc. What you don't seem to realize is that the human body only moves in certain ways and MMA didn't invent anything new or more effective.
That's not what kata is for, kata besides being a method of visualization (every great sports player uses visualization as a training method, you should also) it is a way to pass on knowledge from generation to generation. As a website owner you should know this.
Your signature doesn't mention amateur, but I do see the problem here. You actually think what you do is martial arts. MMA should be called MSA for "Mixed Sports Arts."
Mixed from boxing - sport, judo - sport, muay tai - sport, bjj - sport derived from another sport when he was to weak to do the first sport standing, kickboxing - sport. If you want to get rid of the BS in martial arts you should start in you own backyard by not calling what you do as martial, because it is not. It came from sport and is still sport.
This also explains why there is no martial strategy ( did you learn yang ming, tai yang, shao yang, tai yin shao yin, jue yin, fighting protocol from sports fighting, do you even know what they are? How about the controlling cycle of the five phases as applied to martial strategy? No?) , no strikes to vital areas etc (how much anatomy and physiology have you learned in your sports training. Do you know you can activate the carotid sinus without doing a rear naked choke and cutting of the blood supply? How about hitting in places to motoneuron not to function? Do you know where a motoneuron is located?) I've seen better martial techniques in women's self defense classes. Look at how they stand together against the fence holding each others wrists trying to knee each other, they don't have even the basic about torque in there repertoire because both judo ands therefore bjj stressed push pull and leverage, not torque.
Many things in MMA (MSA) you won't do in a street, fight like trading punches to the head, (you parry the punch and follow it in to the body or you strike the limb in places like the brachial radialis etc. to cause numbness and loss of function of those muscles)
You don’t pull guard, which is another word for lying on your back with you feet in the air, against a street fighter. That leads to getting kicked in the nads, thighs, legs, feet etc. by someone with shoes or boots on. Never would you pass guard, half guard etc and sit or lie on top of them, the bad guy would stomp on your head, ribs, internal organs etc. And if the bad guy got his leg grabbed he'll kick with the other one or jump down on your chest and head with his knees.
If you did happen to end up in the "ground and pound" position you don't start lobbing punches to their head because not only is the skull hard but the floor is even harder and you will break your fist. You take their head and pound it into the ground.
recap
Me over 29 yrs or real martial arts fighting in the real world. 15 years as a trainer. 3ys undergrad in bio/psych, 4 yrs masters Chinese medicine, almost finished last two of doctorate. Webpage and can be an amateur fighter tomorrow but why would I?
You, amateur sports fighter, website
If I buy my 9 year old daughter a website and put her in mixed sports training would that make her an expert like you?
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thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2001
- Messages
- 34,530
A masters of Chinese Medicine... yep, that says alot about you, you are a woo.