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Szamboti's Missing Jolt paper

Your twoof friends at Greg's forum disagree.

Matter of fact, they seem to be of a rough concensus that clean column impact is not possible.


Hey Seymour,

"... a rough consensus ..." ??

How about "absolutely 100% certain".

Even if two columns did happen to hit perfectly flat (about a .000000001% probability), they would be in the midst of such violent dynamic oscillation that they would immediately disengage before any significant impulse had been transmitted between the two pieces.

Oh, one other point, even this impossible face-to-face meeting could not possibly occur until after the block fell 3 stories. That was the length of the columns, and that's the minimum distance that the block could fall before any column reached its first possible "mating surface".

Does anyone there think that any columns in the crush zone were still vertically "aligned" after 3 stories of destruction?

Tom
 
Tony,

Weight is a force as it has components of mass and acceleration.

Let's start with what you got right.

Yup, "weight is a force".

Yippee!!

Now we continue on more familiar ground.

No, Tony. Neither weight nor force has "components of mass & acceleration".

Mass is a fundamental property of matter.

Acceleration is a derived result of the fact that the universe has space & time.

(Interesting thought: does acceleration require matter? Dave Rogers? Would acceleration exist if there were nothing to accelerate?)

And force, while usually taught as a fundamental property of the universe by which matter interacts with other matter, it is not really fundamental at all.

Force is a derived from a more basic principle: symmetry over spatial displacements.

According to the wondrous theories of Emmy Noether, spatial symmetry generates, it requires, it produces the conservation of momentum.

According to electrodynamics, the conservation of momentum generates, it causes, it produces the interactions between matter that we refer to as "forces".

Another cool trick by Ms. Noether is that symmetry over temporal displacements produces, causes, requires the conservation of energy. Her stuff is truly amazing. You should check it out.

So, Tony, "Force" does NOT have "components of mass & acceleration". Force (or weight) is not "made up of one part mass and one part acceleration".

Mass is its own "thing".
Acceleration is its own "thing".
And Force is its own "thing".


Tom
 
Hey Seymour,

"... a rough consensus ..." ??

How about "absolutely 100% certain".

Even if two columns did happen to hit perfectly flat (about a .000000001% probability), they would be in the midst of such violent dynamic oscillation that they would immediately disengage before any significant impulse had been transmitted between the two pieces.

Oh, one other point, even this impossible face-to-face meeting could not possibly occur until after the block fell 3 stories. That was the length of the columns, and that's the minimum distance that the block could fall before any column reached its first possible "mating surface".

Does anyone there think that any columns in the crush zone were still vertically "aligned" after 3 stories of destruction?

Tom

The impacts do not have to be precisely face to face of the separate 3 story lengths. That is a ludicrous proposition. Buckled ends of columns can impact each other.

A jolt should have occurred after a one story drop. Why didn't it?
 
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The impacts do not have to be precisely face to face of the separate 3 story lengths. That is a ludicrous proposition. Buckled ends of columns can impact each other.

A jolt should have occurred after a one story drop. Why didn't it?

The top section tilted.

You missed out a few posts, care to answer them? You do not want people thinking you are a fraud do you?
 
WTC 1,2
In order for the top block moving columns to fall one story, they must first bypass the lower stationary columns at their point of failure.

The columns fail in one of two modes at their weakest/most stressed point.
1) Columns buckle in the body. (36 foot high columns) – or-
2) Columns fracture at the butt joints. (every 36 feet- 1/3rd staggered every 10 feet horizontally at the perimeters, in-line 3 feet above the slab at the core.)

The columns bend and deform in compression (creep-calculated by NIST in WTC2 up to 14" differential settlement) until they fracture at the body (buckle) or butt joint as both fractured ends momentarily remain in eccentric contact due to gravity. This new dynamic eccentric moment forces the columns ends at their fracture to bypass each other and the top columns fractured ends hit the slab below.

It isn't even required that the top be tilted.

The top columns buckled/fractured ends fell onto the slab below not onto another column end below. There was no column end below.

Tony Szamboti’s jolt hypothesis assumes all perimeter and core, upper and lower column ends to axially and simultaneously hit by falling a distance of one story, 12 feet, before impact. This did not happen, therefore the jolt hypothesis is false.
 
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WTC 1,2
In order for the top block moving columns to fall one story, they must first bypass the lower stationary columns at their point of failure.

The columns fail in one of two modes at their weakest/most stressed point.
1) Columns buckle in the body. (36 foot high columns) – or-
2) Columns fracture at the butt joints. (every 36 feet- 1/3rd staggered every 10 feet horizontally at the perimeters, in-line 3 feet above the slab at the core.)

The columns bend and deform in compression (creep-calculated by NIST in WTC2 up to 14" differential settlement) until they fracture at the body (buckle) or butt joint as both fractured ends momentarily remain in eccentric contact due to gravity. This new dynamic eccentric moment forces the columns ends at their fracture to bypass each other and the top columns fractured ends hit the slab below.

It doesn’t even require that the top be tilted.

The top columns buckled/fractured ends fell onto the slab below not onto another column end below. There was no column end below.

Tony Szamboti’s jolt hypothesis assumes all perimeter and core, upper and lower column ends to axially and simultaneously hit by falling a distance of one story, 12 feet, before impact. This did not happen, therefore the jolt hypothesis is false.

l__l__l__l__l
_l__l__l__l__l
__l__l__l__l__l
l__l__l__l__l__l
_l__l__l__l__l__l
__l__l__l__l__l__l

See Tony Szamboti? Even without a tilt they don't line up. It's unpossible Tony Szamboti!
 
WTC 1,2
In order for the top block moving columns to fall one story, they must first bypass the lower stationary columns at their point of failure.

The columns fail in one of two modes at their weakest/most stressed point.
1) Columns buckle in the body. (36 foot high columns) – or-
2) Columns fracture at the butt joints. (every 36 feet- 1/3rd staggered every 10 feet horizontally at the perimeters, in-line 3 feet above the slab at the core.)

The columns bend and deform in compression (creep-calculated by NIST in WTC2 up to 14" differential settlement) until they fracture at the body (buckle) or butt joint as both fractured ends momentarily remain in eccentric contact due to gravity. This new dynamic eccentric moment forces the columns ends at their fracture to bypass each other and the top columns fractured ends hit the slab below.

It isn't even required that the top be tilted.

The top columns buckled/fractured ends fell onto the slab below not onto another column end below. There was no column end below.

Tony Szamboti’s jolt hypothesis assumes all perimeter and core, upper and lower column ends to axially and simultaneously hit by falling a distance of one story, 12 feet, before impact. This did not happen, therefore the jolt hypothesis is false.

I don't think your postulated mechanism here would work, and a stress analysis would show it won't?

You can't just handwave this stuff.
 
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l__l__l__l__l
_l__l__l__l__l
__l__l__l__l__l
l__l__l__l__l__l
_l__l__l__l__l__l
__l__l__l__l__l__l

See Tony Szamboti? Even without a tilt they don't line up. It's unpossible Tony Szamboti!

You need to look at the visualizations of column alignment in WTC 1 with the actual measurements of the tilt and drop taken into consideration. This was done recently and can be seen at http://the911forum.freeforums.org/wtc-1-core-3d-model-t308-15.html where the link takes you to the page and you just need to scroll down to the middle of the page.
 
I don't think your postulated mechanism here would work, and a stress analysis would show it won't?
Nioce edit, there, Tony. From a "3 story buckling is impossible" with all the lateral bracing to "I don't think your postulated mechanism here would work"
ETA: it is considered polite and intellectually honest to use the ETA:, and explain the edit. But truthers have a problem with honesty
You can't just handwave this stuff.
true, but you try anyway...
 
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TFK is doing nothing more than obfuscating the fact that a deceleration greater than 1g needs to occur for a force amplification of an insufficient static load to break up a structure below which is designed to handle several times that load. This is how shock loads apply more force than a static load.


Tony, there is no need whatsoever for this bizarrely stated condition to be true.

I am looking at a glass coffee table. If I could find myself a bowling ball, I am certain that the coffee table would support it with a FOS of about 5-10. (I could gently place that many balls on the table without it breaking.)

And yet, if I dropped the bowling ball onto the table from a height of one story, then the glass table would shatter instantly, while the bowling ball went thru a deceleration far, far less than 1g. The bowling ball's deceleration would be almost unmeasurable.

And yeah I know the difference between ductile & brittle substances. This makes no difference whatsoever to the principle.

When you say that ">1g deceleration required because the bottom structure supported the upper structure before the collapse", you are attempting to connect the pre-collapse-initiation load carrying capacity of the intact structure to the post-collapse-initiation energy absorbing capacity of the massively damaged structure.

And the exact factor that makes your assertion false is the fact that, as soon as the collapse begins, EVERYTHING is loaded in completely different ways than it was in the intact, static structure.

It simply illustrates clearly that the forces applied, and the energies lost, depend on "specifically what breaks" & "how much energy is required takes to break it".

Now, I will agree to this:
IF (and it is one absurd monster of an "if") one were somehow able to surgically slice the towers into two pieces, do zero other damage (which is impossible), raise the upper piece one story, and drop it so carefully that, on contact, every single component matched perfectly with its mating component ...
AND
at the very instant of contact, all of the cross connections and cuts were magically, instantly healed ...
THEN one could imagine that the forces & stresses & energies might rise through their static loading states. And, if analyzed correctly (considering dynamics), one might be able to construct some relationship between the pre-collapse loading condition & the post-collapse impact energy absorption.

Of course, this is so far removed from sanity...

But, Tony, if that's what cocks your pistol, you get right on that project. Let me know how it turns out.

Meanwhile, your attempt to construct some theorem that "a destroying structure must undergo more than 1g of deceleration in order to destroy something that could statically support it" is proven false by the simple bowling ball / glass table counter-example.


Tom
 
Tony, there is no need whatsoever for this bizarrely stated condition to be true.

I am looking at a glass coffee table. If I could find myself a bowling ball, I am certain that the coffee table would support it with a FOS of about 5-10. (I could gently place that many balls on the table without it breaking.)

And yet, if I dropped the bowling ball onto the table from a height of one story, then the glass table would shatter instantly, while the bowling ball went thru a deceleration far, far less than 1g. The bowling ball's deceleration would be almost unmeasurable.

And yeah I know the difference between ductile & brittle substances. This makes no difference whatsoever to the principle.

When you say that ">1g deceleration required because the bottom structure supported the upper structure before the collapse", you are attempting to connect the pre-collapse-initiation load carrying capacity of the intact structure to the post-collapse-initiation energy absorbing capacity of the massively damaged structure.

And the exact factor that makes your assertion false is the fact that, as soon as the collapse begins, EVERYTHING is loaded in completely different ways than it was in the intact, static structure.

It simply illustrates clearly that the forces applied, and the energies lost, depend on "specifically what breaks" & "how much energy is required takes to break it".

Now, I will agree to this:
IF (and it is one absurd monster of an "if") one were somehow able to surgically slice the towers into two pieces, do zero other damage (which is impossible), raise the upper piece one story, and drop it so carefully that, on contact, every single component matched perfectly with its mating component ...
AND
at the very instant of contact, all of the cross connections and cuts were magically, instantly healed ...
THEN one could imagine that the forces & stresses & energies might rise through their static loading states. And, if analyzed correctly (considering dynamics), one might be able to construct some relationship between the pre-collapse loading condition & the post-collapse impact energy absorption.

Of course, this is so far removed from sanity...

But, Tony, if that's what cocks your pistol, you get right on that project. Let me know how it turns out.

Meanwhile, your attempt to construct some theorem that "a destroying structure must undergo more than 1g of deceleration in order to destroy something that could statically support it" is proven false by the simple bowling ball / glass table counter-example.


Tom

The Verinage demolition technique removes the columns of a couple of stories to allow a drop of the upper section and to build momentum and then uses a kinetic energy transfer at impact with the lower structure to accomplish the demolition. It is indeed a purely gravity driven collapse and is what proponents of the NIST/Bazant explanation claim occurred in the towers.

However, the velocity measurements of every Verinage technique demolition show their upper sections undergo a very definitive deceleration and velocity loss, bearing out what I am saying. This telltale deceleration and velocity loss of the upper section in a purely gravity driven collapse is not observed in the velocity measurements of the upper section of WTC 1.
 
Tony, there is no need whatsoever for this bizarrely stated condition to be true.

<snip>

And yeah I know the difference between ductile & brittle substances. This makes no difference whatsoever to the principle.
tony forgets the effects of temperature and strain rate on brittleness in steel
When you say that ">1g deceleration required because the bottom structure supported the upper structure before the collapse", you are attempting to connect the pre-collapse-initiation load carrying capacity of the intact structure to the post-collapse-initiation energy absorbing capacity of the massively damaged structure.

And the exact factor that makes your assertion false is the fact that, as soon as the collapse begins, EVERYTHING is loaded in completely different ways than it was in the intact, static structure.

It simply illustrates clearly that the forces applied, and the energies lost, depend on "specifically what breaks" & "how much energy is required takes to break it".

<snip>.


Tom
we both said the same thing--Tony hand-waves...
 
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Funny considering it's quoted before edit in post #1090 by me.

ETA and #1091 by Wildcat.

You are making it obvious that you don't have an argument against what I am saying when you need to start picking on fly**** like this.

Get real.
 
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