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Szamboti's Missing Jolt paper

Bump for Tony since he is dodging this like the plague. Come on tony, answer the question.

TruthersLie said:
the molten steel lie tony? Really?

Since you obviously are an engineer, please provide the citations and support for that claim. I'll take any experts work. Please provide recovered molten steel.

Molten metal? You bet. I can think of about 10 common metals which all will melt in the temperatures of an office fire... can you?
Click to expand...
 
Bump for Tony since he is just handwaving now.

TruthersLie said:
Really?
What peer reviewed engineering journals have printed any papers saying NIST is wrong?

I'll take any peer reviewed journal from anywhere in the world, in any language.

Name one please.
Click to expand...
 
Tony Szamboti said:
Not at all, there is plenty of evidence for the aircraft hitting the buildings.

There are people who were there and say the black boxes were found at the WTC, but the official word is that they weren't. One has to wonder.
Click to expand...
I believe this all goes back to person (singular). Don't you think he could be mistaken? What evidence is there really that they were found?
 
Tony Szamboti said:
Not at all, there is plenty of evidence for the aircraft hitting the buildings.

There are people who were there and say the black boxes were found at the WTC, but the official word is that they weren't. One has to wonder.
Click to expand...

No, there is a proven fraud and liar who says they were found.
 
well it appears as though they did recover the black box data recorders
here we have Dan Rather, saying they have Mayor Rudolph Giuliani holding
one of them, but oh wait where is the video it seems as though someone
decided at the last second in all their wisdom that we can have a video
of Mayor Rudolp Guliana one of the black box data recorders on live TV.

Dan Rather Says Flight Recorder RECOVERED From Ground Zero

Look it up on youtube

So i would like to ask the following questions

1. Where is the video of Mayor Rudolph Giuliani holding the black box recorded

2. Where are the black box data recorders from flights 11 & 175
 
thecritta said:
well it appears as though they did recover the black box data recorders
here we have Dan Rather, saying they have Mayor Rudolph Giuliani holding
one of them, but oh wait where is the video it seems as though someone
decided at the last second in all their wisdom that we can have a video
of Mayor Rudolp Guliana one of the black box data recorders on live TV.

Dan Rather Says Flight Recorder RECOVERED From Ground Zero

Look it up on youtube

So i would like to ask the following questions

1. Where is the video of Mayor Rudolph Giuliani holding the black box recorded

2. Where are the black box data recorders from flights 11 & 175
Click to expand...

Dan Rather saying there's a video does not mean there's a video. He may have been told something that wasn't or made a mistake or whatever. For question #1 to be valid, you must first prove the video exists. From that research...you can then decide, or not, to ask it again.
 
so you are saying Rudy Guliani was passed a black box up from the bottom of the chain of command from the recovery team. And was about to go on air with it, but somehow it was snatched from his hands and the 'video" Dan Rather was referring to was destroyed. yet no one. not within that chain of command, not the videographer. or cameraman, or sound technician, nor even Dan Rather himself has whispered a word about it. In eight effin years.
welcome to JREF thecritta and thanks for starting your posting history with a failpost.
 
thecritta said:
well it appears as though they did recover the black box data recorders
here we have Dan Rather, saying they have Mayor Rudolph Giuliani holding
one of them, but oh wait where is the video it seems as though someone
decided at the last second in all their wisdom that we can have a video
of Mayor Rudolp Guliana one of the black box data recorders on live TV.

Dan Rather Says Flight Recorder RECOVERED From Ground Zero

Look it up on youtube

So i would like to ask the following questions

1. Where is the video of Mayor Rudolph Giuliani holding the black box recorded

2. Where are the black box data recorders from flights 11 & 175
Click to expand...
Look it up on youtube; how anti-intellectual can you get?

Why do we need Flight 11 and 175 FDRs? FDRs are used to figure out why aircraft crashed, after it was clearly a crime the FDRs are worthless to find cause. What a super-nano non-issue.

I saw it on youtube, ooooooooooooooo... How does this fit in with Tony's missing jolt and inability to do practical engineering with regards to WTC events on 911?
 
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thecritta said:
well it appears as though they did recover the black box data recorders
here we have Dan Rather, saying they have Mayor Rudolph Giuliani holding
one of them, but oh wait where is the video it seems as though someone
decided at the last second in all their wisdom that we can have a video
of Mayor Rudolp Guliana one of the black box data recorders on live TV.

Dan Rather Says Flight Recorder RECOVERED From Ground Zero

Look it up on youtube

So i would like to ask the following questions

1. Where is the video of Mayor Rudolph Giuliani holding the black box recorded

2. Where are the black box data recorders from flights 11 & 175
Click to expand...

These are OT anyway, but the real question is 'so what?'

What difference does it make if the black boxes were recovered or not? The planes still crashed into the buildings, didn't they?
They were still tracked on radar, weren't they?

What's your point? The black boxes were recovered for flights 77 and 93, so if the NWO were really in control of everything, then:

a) they wouldn't have allowed any black boxes to be recovered anywhere
or
b) they would have allowed them to be recovered, but doctored the data anyway.

If you believe the NWO are really that powerful, it really makes no difference either way. They control the FAA, NORAD, FBI apparently. And they would control any further investigation into 9/11 - no doubt they control Steven Jones and Richard Gage as well, so you'll never find out what happened no matter what you do.

This whole thing is an intellectual and logical dead end. Yes, I do mean this whole 9/11 truth thing as well.
 
alienentity said:
These are OT anyway, but the real question is 'so what?'

What difference does it make if the black boxes were recovered or not? The planes still crashed into the buildings, didn't they?
They were still tracked on radar, weren't they?
Click to expand...
Well duh, without the voice recorder we can't hear the pilot saying something like: "But Mr. Cheney, I don't want to crash the plane into the tower, I have a family and don't want to die. Of course sir, the NWO doesn't like to be disappointed. At least the passengers were gassed and died peacefully, have a nice day Mr. Vice President"
 
alienentity said:
These are OT anyway, but the real question is 'so what?'

What difference does it make if the black boxes were recovered or not? The planes still crashed into the buildings, didn't they?
They were still tracked on radar, weren't they?
Click to expand...

Aliententity is right to ask the fantasy peddlers this. So what? What difference does it indeed make? What does the failure to recover those boxes mean to all the other converging lines of evidence that exists establishing the identities of the flights? There are more lines of evidence proving the jets identities than just the black boxes, and I don't see the lack of those boxes refuting a damn thing about those other lines.

This is what Shermer means by "convergence of evidence". Revisionists who want to rewrite aspects of history, whether it's the Holocaust (what Shermer tackled) or 9/11 (what we're tackling here), tend to focus on individual details to the exclusion of all others, then they try to claim that the mass of these individual questions adds up to some alternate story. Nevermind that so many of those individually nitpicked and too often misrepresented details, if interpreted conspiratorially, lead to mutually contradicting conclusions. The point is that conspiracy fantasists see mass and meaning in this ersatz narrative.

But there really is none. A narrative must be supported by the details comprising the narrative. And that doesn't happen here. For example, explosives demolitions are contradicted in at least four different ways:
  1. No remains of explosive devices were ever reported as being recovered
  2. No secondary effects, such as severe barotrauma or all windows in the area being shattered, were noted. In fact, quite the opposite.
  3. No signs of explosives use remains on the recovered debris. Every piece shows other types of failure.
  4. No opportunities existed for the installation of explosives.
... and each of those lines of argument stand on their own. Yet, conspiracy peddlers find it necessary to ignore the convergence of evidence in order to concentrate on disproving a single point, and then claiming that by extension the dominant narrative (i.e. the "official story") built naturally and honestly from observation and balanced consideration of lines of evidence, is somehow wrong. It's the same "guilt by association" tactic that's existed for as long as humans grasped the concept of logical arguments: If one element of the story is in doubt, then the whole story must be in doubt. Nevermind that the doubt is not refutation of the individual element, let alone all the other pieces of evidence that exists.

The same thing is happening here. How many individual, separate lines of evidence exists to firmly establish that the United and American Airlines jets were involved?
  1. The radar tracks do indeed exist. And this by itself encompasses several smaller lines of evidence pertaining to what the air traffic controllers witnessed electronically
  2. For one of the flights, accidental radio transmissions exist.
  3. Cell and airphone calls from passengers on the jets establish the hijackings.
  4. Eyewitnesses saw jets impact the Twin Towers and the Pentagon, and in each case described their liveries. Other witnesses in Pennsylvania observed Flight 93 fly low overhead. The point is that there are direct eyewitness observations of the jets.
  5. In addition to the eyewitneses, there were also film/video recordings of the impacts into the Twin Towers.
  6. Recovered debris and personal effects establish which flights were involved.
  7. Airlines reported missing jets.
  8. For the Washington and Pennsylvania crashes, you do indeed have the flight data recorders and cockpit voice recorders.
But the point is, even for the New York bound flights, even without the FDRs, you still have a convergence of what, 6 independent lines of evidence? If not more? But a truther will attempt to denigrate individual elements of a story in the attempt to topple it, ignoring the fact that it's not only the existence of the individual lines of evidence that firmly establishes the narrative, but that it's the mutual support and agreement they give to each other. So a single point of doubt, even if not misrepresented or divorced from context, hardly overcomes the mass and direction of the remaining lines of evidence. The radar supports the origin of the flights, and independently, so do the testimonies of the victims from the cell and airphone calls. The personal effects and, when recovered, human remains also establish the identity of the jets. The video evidence shows that jets were indeed there, and also shows that eyewitnesses were on the streets and noted the collapses. The eyewitnesses in turn as a mass of testimonies provide further support of the fact jets were involved, and even if some individual testimonies contain mistakes, contradict, or do not as a whole add up to proving that the jets were from United or American Airlines, they establish beyond doubt that there were jets involved; the further detail would come from other sources. In the end, the point is that the evidence doesn't simply exist as an incoherent, tangled mass. The point is that despite oddities, gaps, disagreements (example: Mineta's memories of exact times), and other discontinuities in the narrative, the overall weight and direction of the evidence points towards only a very limited number of possible narratives. And at no time, even mere minutes after the event, was the "government did this" narrative a valid one to take, given the evidence. From the beginning, all of it pointed at radical islamic hijackers crashing jets into buildings. All of the evidence combines to agree with this conclusion and support it in many different ways.

In other words, all the evidence converges onto this conclusion. The nitpicks of the conspiracy peddlers are like pebbles hitting a skyscraper. Even when one scores, how does that compromise the entire thing?

That is one of the base problems with these conspiracy peddlers. So the black boxes for FL11 and 175 were unrecovered? So what? Tell me how that undoes the video, eyewitness testimony, airline testimony of missing jets, FAA ATC testimony of what they saw occur on their radars, cell and airphone calls from passengers, recovered debris, and all the other lines of evidence that exists. Tell me how the missing FDRs are so central a problem that they negate all the other independent lines of evidence. Tell me why their absence puts all those other lines of evidence in doubt. And tell me what alternate narrative encompasses all the other observations - and yes, I mean all; the evidence exists, regardless of how convenient it may or may not be to anyone's favorite alternative - and is better supported than the one that stands now.

If one of you conspiracy peddlers can do that, then you'll finally be onto something. But forgive my cynicism; since 2006 when I first saw this nonsense, and since 2001 when the event occurred, none of you - not a single one of you - has been able to do this. So I'm terribly sorry to say that I'm not holding my breath waiting for this to happen.
 
Seconded.

And, as I've been schooled by various truthers, even if we have blackbox data, it's been faked by the conspiracy anyway, so is meaningless.

Of course this kind of denial is a last resort for truthers once they've been confronted with real evidence - they just claim it's fake, without any other proof than 'it came from the gubmint, so it must be fake' - the old argument from personal incredulity.

I recall that a truther I debated about the hijackers and their flying skills eventually resorted to much the same denial - when offered proof via the FBI hijacker investigations (including various photocopied documents in support) they simply sneer 'you believe the FBI?'.

So it really doesn't make any difference to truthers whether there's evidence or not. It really is that bad.
 
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