Swiss National Interests

[little grey rabbit]

Diagnostic criteria for pedophilia requires the individual to be either primarily or exclusively attracted to prepubescents. The girl in question was post-puberty and there is no evidence that Polanski is primarily or only attracted to children.

Incorrect on a number of accounts.

First you are misquoting the IVD and Diagnostic which includes prepubescent and early pubescent children and specifically states thirteen year olds fall into this catagory.

The ICD (International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems) (F65.4) defines pedophilia as "a sexual preference for children, boys or girls or both, usually of prepubertal or early pubertal age."[1] Under this system's criteria, a person 16 years of age or older meets the definition if they have a persistent or predominant sexual preference for prepubescent children at least five years younger than them.[2]

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 4th edition Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR) outlines specific criteria for use in the diagnosis of this disorder. These include the presence of sexually arousing fantasies, behaviors or urges that involve some kind of sexual activity with a prepubescent child (age 13 or younger, though puberty can vary) for six months or more, and that the subject has acted on these urges or suffers from distress as a result of having these feelings. The criteria also indicate that the subject should be 16 or older and that child or children they fantasize about are at least five years younger than them, though ongoing sexual relationships between a 12-13 year old and a late adolescent are advised to be excluded. A diagnosis is further specified by the sex of the children the person is attracted to, if the impulses or acts are limited to incest, and if the attraction is "exclusive" or "nonexclusive".[4]

Second, the word pedophile has a history and a definition long before the DSMMD was compiled. In anycase Roman Polanski falls under the DSMMD definition

Third, pedophilia is the act. Presumably pedophilia occurs whether or not the perpetrator can be classed as a mentally ill pedophile. He may be a pedophile without a mental disorder.

It is a bit like claiming a senator that cruises for male sex in the toilets is not a homosexual. He may not be exclusively homosexual in orientation but he commited homosexual acts.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Although I am impressed to see Travis swing into action to defend a pedophile - after all even Roman Polanski's conviction for statutory rape was a gross miscarriage of justice and presumably represented corruption or distortion within the legal prosecutors of the time.

Statutory rape implies a willing partner. Drugging and sodomising a 13 year old girl would not in my view imply the giving of consent of person unable to legally give consent.

 

[ZirconBlue]

Although I am impressed to see Travis swing into action to defend a pedophile - after all even Roman Polanski's conviction for statutory rape was a gross miscarriage of justice and presumably represented corruption or distortion within the legal prosecutors of the time.

Statutory rape implies a willing partner. Drugging and sodomising a 13 year old girl would not in my view imply the giving of consent of person unable to legally give consent.

He's not "defending a pedophile", he's, rightly, pointing out your inaccurate usage of that word. Polanksi is a vile scumbag, but not, apparently, a pedophile.

 

[lionking]

This isn't that unusual a request. Many countries, for example, will only extradite to the US if they're giving firm undertakings that the defendant will not face the death penalty if convicted or something like that.

You have posted this before. What relevance does the death sentence have to the Polanski case?

 

[lionking]

He's not "defending a pedophile", he's, rightly, pointing out your inaccurate usage of that word. Polanksi is a vile scumbag, but not, apparently, a pedophile.

True. Rapist does the job though.

 

[drkitten]

You have posted this before. What relevance does the death sentence have to the Polanski case?

It's a well-accepted principle of international (extradition) law that country receiving the extradition request will judge, among other things, whether the sentence to which the defendant would be subject is hideously out of line with that country's laws and expectations.

E.g. countries like the UK and Canada make a well-documented habit of refusing to extradite defendants who might be subject to the death penalty upon trial.

Similarly, a country that inflicted what American law considers to be "cruel and unusual punishment" (e.g. an Islamic country that still enforced Sharia punishments such as mutilation or death by stoning) is likely to find its requests for extradition refused by the US.

This is sufficiently commonplace as almost not to be worth mentioning,....

... until the Swiss point out that, under Swiss law, for a judge to welsh on a deal would be hideously out of line with their laws and expectations, and all of a sudden it's a tremendous imposition.

 

[lionking]

Ah, good. No relevance to the Polanski case then.

And it's interesting that in the other thread you acknowledge the Swiss right to change it's mind, but not a judge when he made it clear that this was an option. There was no "welshing" on any deal, no matter how many times you say it.

 

[gtm]

Perhaps Polanski has promised to do a remake of 'William Tell' & the Swiss are desperate to see their national hero on the silver screen?

Seriously, I think this is to be with the disclosure of private banking details to the IRS. My totally uninformed guess is the Swiss take the view that they've nade enough concessions to the yanks for the time being & want to re- establish their credentials as Europes premier cheese making awkward squad.

 

[drkitten]

Ah, good. No relevance to the Polanski case then.

Not for those who willfully choose not to read for comprehension.

There was no "welshing" on any deal, no matter how many times you say it.

That's certainly your opinion, uniformed though it may be. The Swiss have an opinion that is both better informed and directly opposed to yours. So I guess this is more evidence of willfully poor reading skills.

 

[Travis]

Second, the word pedophile has a history and a definition long before the DSMMD was compiled. In anycase Roman Polanski falls under the DSMMD definition

How so?

Third, pedophilia is the act.

Wrong, rape was the act. Pedophilia is a "philia" which distinguishes a type of attraction of which a "pedo" type indicates an attraction to those that are still sexually immature.

 

[Mikemcc]

That wouldn't make him a pedophile.

Even when he also (allegedly) had relationships with Natassia Kinski and Jodie Foster, both whilst under the legal age of consent in some countries?

 

[Mikemcc]

It's a well-accepted principle of international (extradition) law that country receiving the extradition request will judge, among other things, whether the sentence to which the defendant would be subject is hideously out of line with that country's laws and expectations.

E.g. countries like the UK and Canada make a well-documented habit of refusing to extradite defendants who might be subject to the death penalty upon trial.

Similarly, a country that inflicted what American law considers to be "cruel and unusual punishment" (e.g. an Islamic country that still enforced Sharia punishments such as mutilation or death by stoning) is likely to find its requests for extradition refused by the US.

This is sufficiently commonplace as almost not to be worth mentioning,....

... until the Swiss point out that, under Swiss law, for a judge to welsh on a deal would be hideously out of line with their laws and expectations, and all of a sudden it's a tremendous imposition.

This only applies when the crimes under discussion could have a death penalty, it doesn't apply in this case.

 

[Mikemcc]

I think the victim wants the charges dropped because Polanski paid her a lot of money.

Fair enough from her point of view. Indeed I would support anyone using such a situation to their financial advantages because god knows there is no other law enforcement organization that will ever meet its obligations when up against "those that threaten national interests"

The best thing to do is try and sting them for cash.

Doesn't matter, it's a criminal case, not a civil one.

 

[Travis]

Even when he also (allegedly) had relationships with Natassia Kinski and Jodie Foster, both whilst under the legal age of consent in some countries?

Yes, that still wouldn't make him a pedophile. Perhaps a Hebephile, or a Ephebophile depending on their ages, but even that would require evidence that he is almost exclusively attracted to those age groups.

 

[little grey rabbit]

How so?

Highlight the parts of this wikipedia discussion of the various definitions you find difficult to understand

The ICD (International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems) (F65.4) defines pedophilia as "a sexual preference for children, boys or girls or both, usually of prepubertal or early pubertal age."[1] Under this system's criteria, a person 16 years of age or older meets the definition if they have a persistent or predominant sexual preference for prepubescent children at least five years younger than them.[2]

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 4th edition Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR) outlines specific criteria for use in the diagnosis of this disorder. These include the presence of sexually arousing fantasies, behaviors or urges that involve some kind of sexual activity with a prepubescent child (age 13 or younger, though puberty can vary) for six months or more, and that the subject has acted on these urges or suffers from distress as a result of having these feelings. The criteria also indicate that the subject should be 16 or older and that child or children they fantasize about are at least five years younger than them, though ongoing sexual relationships between a 12-13 year old and a late adolescent are advised to be excluded. A diagnosis is further specified by the sex of the children the person is attracted to, if the impulses or acts are limited to incest, and if the attraction is "exclusive" or "nonexclusive".[4]

early puberty is explicitly included as are 13 year olds. The only specified possible exclusion is a 13 year old with a late adolescent.

 

[little grey rabbit]

by your perverse definition unless you prove an exclusive preoccupation, you can rape as many children you like but not be a pedophile so long as you have a number of over age partners.

I don't think that is definition supported either by the medical or wider community.

However DSMMD definitions are not the only definitions of words. I presume if the offender was not Jewish you would have no problem with describing someone who anally raped YOUR 13 year old daughter/niece/sister as a pedophile without quibbling whether the attraction is exclusive or inclusive?

 

[drkitten]

early puberty is explicitly included as are 13 year olds. The only specified possible exclusion is a 13 year old with a late adolescent.

Not at all. They explicitly note that puberty can vary; it's perfectly possible for a 13 year old to be post-pubescent.

 

[Travis]

by your perverse definition unless you prove an exclusive preoccupation, you can rape as many children you like but not be a pedophile so long as you have a number of over age partners.

How is that perverse?

I don't think that is definition supported either by the medical or wider community.

However DSMMD definitions are not the only definitions of words. I presume if the offender was not Jewish you would have no problem with describing someone who anally raped YOUR 13 year old daughter/niece/sister as a pedophile without quibbling whether the attraction is exclusive or inclusive?

Actually I would only define them as a "rapist" and seek for them to be punished as a "rapist" while regarding whether the individual was also a "pedophile" or not as irrelevant.

Also

I presume if the offender was not Jewish

What's that got to do with this?

 

[ddt]

What's that got to do with this?

Little grey rabbit is a Holocaust denier. Says enough, I guess.

 

[Beerina]

What are the penalties in Switzerland for plying a 13 year old girl with Quaaludes and alcohol and then having sex with her? The statute of limitations?