Suzanne Somers Promotes "Bioidenticals"

Giving hormones to people diagnosed with cancer is unprecedented.


This is a flat out falsehood. There are several hormone treatments given to prostate and breast cancer patients. You can review the types of hormone treatments for cancer patients here.

Please know what you're talking about before making false claims.


In fact, you can go read this paper nicely summing up the literature on HRT for women with either a history of breast or endometrial cancer. I'll quote a little for you, if you like:

The possible association of replacement therapy with re-
gard to hormonally dependent cancers has been discussed
for decades. There is general agreement that unopposed es-
trogen in a woman with a uterus does increase the risk of
endometrial cancer severalfold. The rationale for using com-
bined estrogen plus progesterone in such an individual is
that in some studies the incidence of endometrial carcinoma
is reduced to normal or even is protective against endometrial carcinoma.
 
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Also, finally, there is a university that is conducting a true clinical trial of the Wiley Protocol. This trial has no connection to Wiley at all. The details will be announced January 3.

Would you tell us which university is doing the study, please?
 
This is a flat out falsehood. There are several hormone treatments given to prostate and breast cancer patients. You can review the types of hormone treatments for cancer patients here.

Please know what you're talking about before making false claims.

You must be kidding! This article is about hormone ABLATION not replacement. Do you not know the difference?
 
I'll start by addressing something that I should have covered earlier:


You clearly know nothing about IVF. Estrace is used in IVF during the luteal phase (following embryo transfer).

Estrace is a brand name. It contains estradiol, a "natural" hormone.

[/quote] As for these natural bioidentical hormones of which you speak, are these the ones?

Gonal-F® RFF (follitropin alfa injection) is a prescription medication containing FSH, manufactured by recombinant DNA technology.

Follistim® AQ (follitropin beta injection) is a pure FSH preparation manufactured by recombinant DNA technology.

Bravelle® (urofollitropin for injection, purified), is a highly purified follicle-stimulating hormone (hFSH) derived from urine.

Repronex® (menotropin for injection, USP) is a purified preparation of urine-derived gonadotropins, FSH and LH.

Pregnyl® (chorionic gonadotropin), a highly-purified preparation derived from the urine of pregnant women, was introduced in Europe in 1932 as the first hCG preparation drug and still continues to be one of the leading hCG therapies manufactured and sold today.

Ganirelix Acetate Injection (formerly called Antagon™) is a synthetic gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) antagonist that is used to suppress premature luteinizing hormone (LH) surges in women during assisted reproductive technology (ART) treatment.

Cetrotide® (cetrorelix acetate for injection), is a synthetic gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) antagonist used to suppress premature luteinizing hormone (LH) surges in women during assisted reproductive technology (ART) treatment.

Which hormones were you talking about?
I wasn't referring to all of the LH, FSH, etc hormones. I was referring to Estrogen and Progesterone. Women don't take LH or FSH in HRT.

She is clearly pushing her own hormone preparations. What I will give her credit for is the open admission that this has never been done before and she is proposing what almost sound like supratherapeutic doses of hormones. However, as others have mentioned, what about the potential health hazards? What evidence does she have outside of her (and your) anecdotal accounts?

What evidence is there for any HRT other than those pushed by drug companies who have the money to fund a clinical trial? When the hormones are compounded in a drug store, how do you suppose you could get a pharmacist to contribute thousands of prescriptions? How can you get a hundred pharmacies to make the identical product so each could contribute, say, 10 each? That is what Wiley is doing with the registered pharmacies so that there can, finally, be a credible trial of a BHRT protocol. She is forcing standardization in compounding, at least in the pharmacies that carry the WP. That is how there will be a clinical trial in 2007.


And do not condescendingly tell us to read some science when you cannot or refuse to do the same.

I'm sorry, I don't recall being directed to anything.

snip
 
My complaint is that you are promoting an untested therapy that has a good chance of causing harm.

There are many people who have been on this protocol for years. Untested in the sense of a randomized clinical trial? True. Do you have any idea how many things you use in a day that have not been through such a trial?

However, you are right, it has not been put through that kind of test, hopefully it will soon. But my question for you is why do you think it "has a good chance of causing harm?" What evidence do you have for that?



That information is unsubstantiated and not particularly relevant. The majority of physicians act in a ethical manner and are not compensated. That a few physicians participate in illegal practices does not excuse anything. The relative level of compensation that you and others receive for the pushing of untested and unproven therapies is not the factor that determines whether or not it is okay.

Linda

Sorry, you're wrong. I know many doctors in the HRT business and they are all making money it. What you would call ethical and what a doctor sees as their property are not the same. Doctors think they are going broke. They think they have to find a way to make money beyond just office visit fees. It's endemic. Sorry, you are wrong.

I receive no compensation and neither does T.S. Wiley. I've already explained that. At some point, if the WP is very popular, her company that provides training and branded packaging could provide a nice income, but it hasn't for 12 years. It is pointless for all of you to look for a big payoff motive here, it doesn't exist.
 
He plagarized Wikipedia.

So here is a question: why does someone who takes a position get filleted here for every little thing? Huntsman, go kick your dog.

I put quotes around it, so anyone who isn't blind could see I was quoting something. I put in the link to Wikipedia, but it was bounced because I didn't have 15 posts.

Now, am I working against a tide of negative opinion or what?

Is anyone here interested in getting to the bottom of this or this just a fun game people who have nothing better to do? I've already agreed that I've made some errors, conceded some points. I'm trying to have a real discussion. Is anyone else?
 
Ask Deb about the time she posted a comment on her blog and attributed it to my wife, then had to reverse herself when I caught her. This is not an honest broker.
I'm a little surprised that Neil would goad me into telling the story behind this.

Shortly after Wiley Watch relaunched, a couple of anonymous comments were posted: "You guys are idiots with too muh time on your hands. Give up. Get medicated . Go away." and "Laurel is a [defamatory term] who started this web site when T.S. Wiley wouldn't let her be businiss partiners in the Wiley Protocol."

Here are the log entries ("http" and "www" part removed because forum won't let them through):
Code:
[B]72.205.193.253[/B] - - [15/Oct/2006:16:08:55 -0400] "POST /comment/reply/5 HTTP/1.1" 302 5 "wileywatch.org/comment/reply/5" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322)"
Code:
[B]72.205.193.253[/B] - - [15/Oct/2006:16:11:41 -0400] "POST /comment/reply/5 HTTP/1.1" 302 5 "wileywatch.org/comment/reply/5" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322)"
Approximately three minutes later an e-mail with just the subject line "Buy Suzanne's book, you'll love it!" was sent to the aforementioned Laurel of Rhythmic Living.

From the headers:
Code:
Received: from momofficenew ([[B]72.205.193.253[/B]])
        by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp
        id akEP1V00T5UVtWo0000000
        Sun, 15 Oct 2006 16:14:23 -0400
From: [B]"TS Wiley" <tswiley@hiredbrains.com>[/B]
That was good enough for me. I put Wiley's name on those comments.

A few days later Neil left a comment apologizing, saying that he suspected one of his "silly kids" must have left those comments. Amused, I responded, "You didn't ask how dared I to put your wife's name on those comments. I guess you knew where they came from as well as I do. What a surprise." He then insisted it was specifically their daughter. (EDIT: His comment and subsequent e-mails originated from the same IP address above.)

Do I believe this story? Of course not. But if they're capable of pinning this sort of thing on one of their kids, I think the world should know about it. So I substituted in "T.S. Wiley's daughter" and explained why on the site.

As for all the other stuff that Debv points out, the flame notes, the fake names, sure, I did some of that and it was a mistake. I was trying to defend my wife (of 33 years). It was wrong.
Back on April 3, I caught Neil (not for the first time) sending harassing e-mails under a fake name -- this time as "Wilson Pickett" and using the e-mail address "wilson_pickett2001@yahoo.com". On 11/14, somebody calling himself "Steve" posted a comment on Erika Schwartz's blog, using the e-mail address "wilson_pickett2001@yahoo.com". Unless I'm mistaken, that puts an upper limit on the age of this moral contrition of about two weeks.
 
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I am trying not to be ignorant. But, [nraden does] not answer my questions: for example "a conjugate of 39 substances." What does this mean?

Why not simply direct us to the Phase 3 clinical trial that supports your claims?

What is the difference between natural and synthetic? And how are phytoestrogens "bio-identical" to mammalian estrogens?

You note "... local irritation and pain when continually administered parentally" how do parents exacerbate the harm. A lot of menopausal women do not rely on their parents. Where did that come from? (And, yes, I know the question ends in a preposition).
nraden- can I expect to be edified?
 
You must be kidding! This article is about hormone ABLATION not replacement. Do you not know the difference?

Can you not read? Did you not even look at the links I have provided?

Here I will quote the pertinent part for you again:

The possible association of replacement therapy with re-
gard to hormonally dependent cancers has been discussed
for decades.

Go back and check the links I gave.

ETA: Or did you miss the link I added? Well sir, go back and check it.
 
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There are many people who have been on this protocol for years. Untested in the sense of a randomized clinical trial? True. Do you have any idea how many things you use in a day that have not been through such a trial?

Yes. Zero. That is not relevant to this discussion. Deflecting criticism by attacking others gives the impression that you cannot support your position otherwise.

However, you are right, it has not been put through that kind of test, hopefully it will soon. But my question for you is why do you think it "has a good chance of causing harm?" What evidence do you have for that?

The harm that is associated with the use of exogenous estrogens - increased risk of blood clots, breast cancer, and stroke, for example - from controlled studies. As I mentioned before, there is no reason to assume that the Wiley Project drugs will not have these effects as they act in the same manner as the tested drugs.

Sorry, you're wrong. I know many doctors in the HRT business and they are all making money it. What you would call ethical and what a doctor sees as their property are not the same. Doctors think they are going broke. They think they have to find a way to make money beyond just office visit fees. It's endemic. Sorry, you are wrong.

I receive no compensation and neither does T.S. Wiley. I've already explained that. At some point, if the WP is very popular, her company that provides training and branded packaging could provide a nice income, but it hasn't for 12 years. It is pointless for all of you to look for a big payoff motive here, it doesn't exist.

I have not stated that you are looking for a big pay-off as your motive. And trying to create a diversionary tactic by making unsubstantiated claims of endemic fraud has nothing to do with whether or not it is appropriate for you to push untested and unproven drugs. It is not inappropriate because you are getting paid for it. It is inappropriate because we have discovered that we have fooled ourselves hundreds or thousands of times, even when we sincerely thought we were doing the right thing. And the only way to prevent this is to perform the studies that remove the possibility of bias.

The money issue simply undermines your credibility.

Linda
 
"snip local irritation and pain when continually administered parentally. snip"
Mr. Raden, this has me concerned. I am not a father; but I am an uncle. If I administer drugs avuncularly, is that a problem, too?

You called me ignorant; but when I ask what "a conjugate of 39 substances" means, you don't explain. How can I learn?
 
I wasn't referring to all of the LH, FSH, etc hormones. I was referring to Estrogen and Progesterone. Women don't take LH or FSH in HRT.
Then what was your point in bringing up IVF?

Again, your statement:

nraden said:
2. If you know anything about in vitro fertilization, you would know that estrace and the rest of the (patentable junk) in Premarin is NEVER used. Only natural bioidentical hormones are used in in vitro. Why do suppose that is?

Estrace is used, as I said. You were wrong on at one.

I listed the other hormones used, which I doubt fall into your classification of bioidentical hormones.

All of them fall into your "patentable junk" category.

What are these bioidentical hormones of which you speak that are used in IVF?

nraden said:
What evidence is there for any HRT other than those pushed by drug companies who have the money to fund a clinical trial?
Have you actually looked at the vast amount of peer-reviewed studies on HRT that are not sponsored by drug companies? I appears that you have not.

nraden said:
When the hormones are compounded in a drug store, how do you suppose you could get a pharmacist to contribute thousands of prescriptions? How can you get a hundred pharmacies to make the identical product so each could contribute, say, 10 each? That is what Wiley is doing with the registered pharmacies so that there can, finally, be a credible trial of a BHRT protocol. She is forcing standardization in compounding, at least in the pharmacies that carry the WP. That is how there will be a clinical trial in 2007.
Not sure I'm following the first sentences there, but the final point comes across. Haven't you kind of put the cart before the horse, so to speak, in advocating an untested hormonal regimen to who knows how many women?

nraden said:
I'm sorry, I don't recall being directed to anything.

Do you really need us to do this for you?
 
There are many people who have been on this protocol for years. Untested in the sense of a randomized clinical trial? True. Do you have any idea how many things you use in a day that have not been through such a trial?

However, you are right, it has not been put through that kind of test, hopefully it will soon. But my question for you is why do you think it "has a good chance of causing harm?" What evidence do you have for that?

Just who are these doctors in the "HRT business"? I don't know any. You make sweeping generalizations like this, and then make comments like this to clarify:

nraden said:
Oh yes they are. Many receive kickbacks one way or the other from the compounding pharmacies they (illegally) direct their patients to. Others, like Erika Schwartz, charge $850 for a 15 minute telephone interview and then prescribe without ever seeing the patient, directing them to a pharmacy THEY OWN which dispenses at inflated prices. Most "wellness" doctors sell supplements directly from their offices. Part of the reason so many of the "natural" BHRT docs are up in arms with Wiley is that she threatens their livelihood. She is down on the supplements and strongly suggests (she can't set) that the registered pharmacies not charge more than $37.50 per hormone per month.

Also, there is a notion in BHRT that each patient needs a "customized" hormone preparation. The doctors charge an arm and a leg to do this, which usually results in a Rx from a short list of templates that they've worked out with their pharmacist.
Who are these "wellness" doctors"? Are you talking about medical doctors (MDs)? Or are you making statements that apply only to a fringe few who portray themselves as something that they are not?

nraden said:
Sorry, you're wrong. I know many doctors in the HRT business and they are all making money it. What you would call ethical and what a doctor sees as their property are not the same. Doctors think they are going broke. They think they have to find a way to make money beyond just office visit fees. It's endemic. Sorry, you are wrong.
Physicians are being squeezed by reductions in reimbursements and increases in malpractice and administrative costs. To take that as some type of proof that they are all resorting to unethical behavior is just sad. But I'll go so far ask to ask why you think that any doc would open him/herself up to the medicolegal risks that such behavior carries? Aside from being unethical, it's just not practical.

nraden said:
I receive no compensation and neither does T.S. Wiley. I've already explained that. At some point, if the WP is very popular, her company that provides training and branded packaging could provide a nice income, but it hasn't for 12 years. It is pointless for all of you to look for a big payoff motive here, it doesn't exist.
And yet you allege so many profit motives among physicians. Again, must be comforting to live in such a black and white world.

No. It's not pointless to look for your profit motive. If you were really interested in helping women, you wouldn't make false accusations about physicians, misrepresent the information that is out there such as that in the WHI while also acting like there is no good non-Big-Pharm studies showing HRT's benefits, you wouldn't provide inaccurate information here or on the website, and you would have established the efficacy and safety of Wiley's protocol before avocating it publically.

Maybe it is a desire to elevate your own importance which is at the root of this. Put a wedge between women and those who really wish to help them and then ingratiate yourselves with women by portraying yourselves as coming to their rescue with your own, untested but natural remedy. If it's not a profit motive driving this, then perhaps it's a hero complex.
 
There are many people who have been on this protocol for years. Untested in the sense of a randomized clinical trial? True.
Sir, I hope that you and your wife made these women sign waivers stating that that they knew they were taking part in long-term trials of untested pharmacueticals.
If not, some lawyer is going to toast your asses one day.
 
Mr. Raden, this has me concerned. I am not a father; but I am an uncle. If I administer drugs avuncularly, is that a problem, too?

In that situation, I would suggest that your wife administer the drugs. Those side-effects shouldn't occur if they are administered auntally.

Linda
(In my defense, that is probably the worst pun I have ever attempted.)
 
GROAN. The question, fls, is whether he knows what we are going on about? The nerve of someone who knows nothing about medicine arguing with, at least one, doctor here. Maybe TS would like acting lessons from the doctor …

But, seriously, I note that debv refers to Erika Schwartz (MD) as an opponent of Wiley. However, Dr. S has her own form of bioidentical hormone therapy (as I recall), and my understanding is that all of it is hokum.

http://www.ncahf.org/digest05/05-45.html
ACOG warns against "bioidentical hormone therapy" and saliva testing.”

The ACOG press release:
http://www.acog.org/from_home/publications/press_releases/nr10-31-05-1.cfm
There is no scientific evidence to support claims of increased efficacy or safety for individualized estrogen or progesterone regimens prepared by compounding pharmacies, according to a new Committee Opinion released today by The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG). Furthermore, hormone therapy does not belong to a class of drugs with an indication for individualized dosing.” [italics added]

http://www.pharmwatch.org/strategy/bioidentical.shtml
Steer Clear of "Bioidentical" Hormone Therapy
 
So here is a question: why does someone who takes a position get filleted here for every little thing? Huntsman, go kick your dog.

I put quotes around it, so anyone who isn't blind could see I was quoting something. I put in the link to Wikipedia, but it was bounced because I didn't have 15 posts.

Now, am I working against a tide of negative opinion or what?

Is anyone here interested in getting to the bottom of this or this just a fun game people who have nothing better to do? I've already agreed that I've made some errors, conceded some points. I'm trying to have a real discussion. Is anyone else?

Go ◊◊◊◊ yourself :)

There, now that we've both acted like children, quoting without identifiying the source was pointed out, because this is a violation of forum rules, the ones you must agree to before posting here.

And a simple "From Wikipedia:" at the beginning of the statement is all that's required, there is an edit function. But apparently taking 15 seconds to add attribution was too much.

And, as an aside, Wikipedia is hardly an authorative reference source. I'm as likely to accept "some guy in a bar said" as Wikipedia. Use fact-checked references rather than Internet popularity contests and they'll be recieved better.

I'[m not trying to have a real discussion. Your level of ignorance is too high to even make this possible. I have absolutely zero interest in listening to the tripe you're shilling. You do not have the background knowledge to understand your claims, the counter-arguments, or to even present the claims in a manner that does not include inherit logical contradictions. As such, you aren't worht a debate, because the claims are nonsense at face value. No "natural" treatment would produce un-natural levels of hormones, so you've shot yourself in the foot before you begin.

Now, others here may be trying to have a discussion. Good for them. I am not, nor do I see anywhere that I ever implied, stated, or hinted that I was. I am here to laugh at the funny man, much as one might laugh at the poo-flinging monkeys in the zoo. I see no reason to have a "discussion" with an obviously delusional, uninformed person who is doing nothing more than spreading propoganda for an unnatural, unproven, , highly questionable, logically inconsistent, and likely dangerous medical treatment for his own profit.

Have a nice day.
 
But, seriously, I note that debv refers to Erika Schwartz (MD) as an opponent of Wiley. However, Dr. S has her own form of bioidentical hormone therapy (as I recall), and my understanding is that all of it is hokum.

Yeah, I don't think she's a credible critic. It looks like she is in competition with T. S. Wiley.

Linda
 

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