More than double; drag increases with the square of velocity.
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Sustainable Fuels
- Thread starter Orphia Nay
- Start date
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
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My little city car could go 300km on about 15 litres of fuel. A formula 1 car somehow uses ten times as much. I must be missing something.
jeremyp
Philosopher
The trouble is that energy density for BEVs is much lower than for ICE cars. In order to compete with an ICE F1 car a BEV would need very large very heavy battery. That, of course, would compromise cornering speed, tyre wear and braking performance. I doubt that any BEV will ever compete with an ICE F1 car over a standard F1 race distance.
That's not to say you couldn't have a race of that distance involving BEVs. It would be much slower though and the fans will be whining because, apparently, the most important thing in F1 is that the engines are really really loud.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Some people will embrace the new technology and become fans, others will resist. It always takes time for change to filter through.
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
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People still watch horse racing.
I've found that both the enthusiast and skeptics tend to be wrong.
Side note on F1, I've recently found a guy who makes videos about the rules of F1, I know nothing about F1 but the videos are funny. Basically, all of them are one team finds a loophole, the others try to claim it breaks the rules and folks in charge decide it's not but change the rules for the next season.
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
You mean the worst thing about them - followed by the ridiculously long race times. I wouldn't watch a Formula 1 race if you paid me. Formula E is much more enjoyable.
jeremyp
Philosopher
No I meant the apparently most important thing - at least if you talk to the kinds of fans that post online about F1. Any time the engine formula changes to not be a three or more letter V8 or more, loads of "fans" complain about it.
I get that you personally don't like F1. Enough people do like it, however, to make it a business worth vastly more than Formula E.
I'm an F1 fan of many many years, and I don't care they no longer are as loud as the old V12s. The dinosaurs who rant about those being 'real F1' piss me off.
I think F1 are doing the right thing by embracing and developing both sustainable fuel AND EV technology, and seeing which direction (if not both) is best for speed, racing, and road car development.
I think F1 are doing the right thing by embracing and developing both sustainable fuel AND EV technology, and seeing which direction (if not both) is best for speed, racing, and road car development.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Formula 1 racing moves to fully 50/50% hybrid V6 engines in 2026, but the longer term plan is to move to V8 or even V10 cars running on sustainable fuels.
The FIA President thinks sustainable fuel V8s should be possible in 2029.
V8 engines to return? FIA president reveals possible timeline in ‘right way forward’ update
Mohammed Ben Sulayem has said the V8 engine proposal is "the right way" to go for Formula 1, as he offered a possible introduction date.www.planetf1.com
“It’s about reaching the [Net Zero] numbers when it comes to the environment. If we can reach it this way or that way, who cares?"
Airlines, too, are working on sustainable fuels.
As F1 technology, like aviation, is a precursor to road vehicle technology, are we more on track to Net Zero 2050 for transport this way?
Is sustainable fuel feasible? What issues do you see with this? Care to share what you know of the science behind sustainable fuel?
Just visiting from the coconut oil jet fuel thread.
Anything can be sustainable, if you don't use much of it.
The thing we like about fossil fuels is the absolutely absurd amount of potential energy they contain, per weight and per volume. Geologic processes working over geologic time. It's the kind of thing you can only get from a rocky planet with a molten core (and a metric fuckton of fixed carbon to work with).
And here we are, burning it all to power our luxuries. If we were a truly wise species, with a world government as benevolent as it was ruthless, we'd be using it for some once-in-a-civilization project. Something truly befitting an era's worth of planetary grinding.
Anything can be sustainable, if you don't use much of it. The thing about these other fuels is that none of them* store nearly as much potential energy as fossil fuels do. A one-to-one replacement is never going to be feasible. Not for jet fuel. Not for automobile fuel. Not for fuel to keep our cities lighted and plumbed and heated. To get to sustainable fuel consumption levels, we'd have to start consuming a lot less fuel. Which, ironically, would mean our fossil fuel emissions would go way down, and our fossil fuels would last a lot longer... perhaps rendering the question of efficient biofuels entirely moot.
I think the only real answer to the question of sustainable airplane fuel is for people to take less plane rides. There is no such thing as ethical overconsumption.
*Except uranium, which nobody besides me likes for some reason.
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
I think you're probably right about jet fuel. In the case of automobile fuel, electric vehicles seem to be a scalable alternative.
The lower hanging fruit still accounts for more. Perhaps more fuel-efficient aircraft are also possible. They would still run on (mostly) fossil fuels, just more efficiently.
Rolfe
Adult human female
There are already short-haul electric planes.
And claims that hydrogen fuel cell prop planes have a better weight efficiency than turboprops for the same range.
I'll try to dig out links later
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
Could be, but I would imagine there would be safety concerns with hydrogen fuel.
Rolfe
Adult human female
I have serious doubts about hydrogen for aviation. The weight might look good, but the volume requirements are a different matter. And, well, hydrogen.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Electric vehicles are based on batteries that store energy. Do they store energy as efficiently as an equivalent mass of gasoline?
That energy still has to be generated somewhere, by some means. What means do you propose? Enough wind and solar to generate all the electricity needed for a 1:1 replacement of fossil fuel-powered ground transportation?
I'm telling you, there is no 1:1 replacement for fossil fuels*. The energy density of fossil fuels is so far beyond other sources that it has completely deranged our sense of what's normal or reasonable energy consumption for a human civilization. Either we lean into the ridiculously overpowered and unsustainable fossil fuel economy (and shift to a nuclear fission economy as soon as possible), or we need to seriously consider pruning human civilization back to something that's actually sustainable with renewable fuel sources. "Electric means we can all keep our cars!" is not the answer.
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We are pruning the human population back, most folks aren't at replacement levels. Some places are headed towards demographic collapse. That being said, we should reduce our carbon footprint as much as possible. A mix of solar, wind, hydro, and fission is how we should proceed while understanding that we are a long way from completely decarbonizing our infrastructure.
The advantage of hydrogen is that it can be produced with electricity. If we can reduce the carbon output of our electrical generation, hytrogen is a good avenue to pursue.
The prestige is largely correct though, almost nothing beats the energy density is fossil fuels.
The advantage of hydrogen is that it can be produced with electricity. If we can reduce the carbon output of our electrical generation, hytrogen is a good avenue to pursue.
The prestige is largely correct though, almost nothing beats the energy density is fossil fuels.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Why not just use the electricity as it is, without the inefficiencies of going through hydrogen and back again?
Battery weight when it comes to planes. Otherwise, we've already shown its fit for purpose on cars. I don't know where we stand with all electric planes but if the power/energy weight ratio gets to the point we don't need combustion, awesome.
The Great Zaganza
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It is really strange that some people consider a return to population levels 30 years ago a "collapse"