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Survey about creationism

Ruby said:



I'm sorry, but it sounds nuts to me that our morals and intellect was inherited from apes!]

:D
But not nuts that we inherited them from the entity who did this?

And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle
( I picked something seasonal..)
 
Dark Cobra said:


No matter how she acts, she is still a virus.

If you knew me...in person...you would not say or think that. You would see that by my own nature, I am not the invasive or virus type person. I am gentle, shy, and kind. Still, I guess you are calling me a virus due to my belief in God. I can understand that aspect. There are many Christians who are mean, legalistic, close-minded and judgmental. I detest spiritual abuse. I have gone through it myself. My dear hubby grew up in an isolated religious (Christian) cult community. It has left many scars on him and one of his younger brothers.

I have great compassion for you...no matter what you think of me. Like you, I am a social phobic. I know what it's like to live with it. I know how it cripples, hurts, and frustrates. I know the anger too. I have lived with this disorder for all my adult life since my teens, but I am SO much better now. It took me years and years to get help......that's why I lived so crippled for so long. It's hard as hell for a social phobic to feel comfortable enough to get help and take small steps to recovery. No one understands this unless they are there.

Sorry to go off topic and get personal. You don't have to like me.......but sure would be nice if you could stop the insults. I used to live with cut downs and insults......especially in my first marriage....and it attributed greatly to my social phobia. I thought for many years that I was a stupid waste of space. Please don't remind of that.
 
Ruby said:
How can a mass of some sort of chemicals come together like magic to produce a living creature?

Evolution is not a random process. It is directed through selection.

The ape belief is a theory, not a fact

Theory is the best science has to offer. Gravity is also a theory - better fasten your seatbelt ;)

Most findings of ape-men have been proven to be frauds

Feh. Take another look at the picture I posted. Every one a different species. It's not even an exhaustive list.

Ramapithecus

That was no fraud. It was suggested as a possible ancestor of man. Later evidence showed it to be closer related to orangutans.


Again, no fraud here. Some creationists insist that it is human, other that it is ape. If the difference is so clear, why the confusion?

Neanderthal Man

Good heavens. Neanderthal man a fraud? Who on earth told you that?!

I'm sorry, but it sounds nuts to me that our morals and intellect was inherited from apes!

And yet apes do demonstrate rudimentary moral behaviour - for example, caring for members of their group who are incapable of leading a normal life. It would be no cost to the group to let them die - indeed, it would free up extra resources for the rest.
 
Ruby said:
Would you mind explaining that further?

He means that we did not evolve from the apes we see today. Rather, they are our cousins. All modern ape species (ourselves included!) evolved along different paths from the same creature.
 
You're mistaking the definition of theory in this case. Among scientists, a hypothesis is a logical guess, a theoretical idea of how things appear to be. A theory is a hypothesis that has been proven, logically and beyond a reasonable doubt. That's why it's referred to as "the theory of gravity", for example. When you see the word "theory" in a modern scientific context, regard it as fairly established fact. There's always a level of uncertainty, and scientific thought regards nothing as absolutely true or false due to the difficulty (nay, impossibility) of accounting for every possible variable. That's why the "theory" terminology is used; but, as I've pointed out, there is no reasonable doubt as to the accuracy of the evolution theory. There's always a level of doubt for anything, but in this case there's not enough to be meaningful.

The chemicals did not come together like magic- the chemistry and structure of biology has been developing for the past 3.75 billion years. That's a hell of a long time, enough to be almost meaningless to us. It's been a slow process of aggregation, as various structures and solutions to the challenge of survival have succeeded or failed. What we see around us in the biosphere today is there result of an unimaginably long period of trial and error, false starts and failed lines. Every organism that has ever lived has striven to be the ultimate stupendous badass at survival, the process of evolution refining and tweaking and weeding out the weak. If you want a great introduction to evolution, run and don't walk to the nearest bookstore and pick up a copy of Richard Dawkins' spectacular and superlative "The Selfish Gene", which is one of the best works I've seen on it, and approachable even for a non-science geek.

Ape-men is not necessarily the best term. "Hominid" is the most accurate. Java Man is physiologically identical (barring individual variations) to every other Homo Erectus fossil ever discovered; again, there is no question. Homo Neandtertalensis (Neandertal man) has likewise been established through a variety of means as being an offshoot of the Homo Erectus line, just as we are. Their skeletons display significant differences from both Homo sapiens and Homo erectus. Piltdown man was recognized as a fake in the 1800's; it's not a part of the hominid evolutionary tree. You may also be interested to know that early Homo sapiens are referred to as "anatomically modern humans"; the behaviorally modern ones have been around for a much shorter time, 60,000 years I believe. The anatomically (but not behaviorally) modern ones behaved much as Homo erectus and neandertalensis did, until the evolutionary advent of something a colleague of mine in the anthropology department refers to as "cognitive fluidity". That essentially means that humans were finally able to synthesize their skills and different types of intelligence; we were able to imagine and create, and had the mental flexibility to change our world and form culture. Our ability to concieve of morals, Gods, laws, technology, innovation, and complex tasks requiring cognitive synthesis are the outgrowth of our simian brains linking everything together. There's even a book out there that says that hallucinogens helped bring this about, which I won't disagree with.

Incidentally, the idea that our behavior is similar to the other apes is backed up by primatology. (and note that I'm not saying evolved from; they're not our parents and grandparents in the evolutionary tree, they're our brothers and sisters. We all shared a prototypical ape ancestor.) Dian Fossey and Jane Goodall are the best examples, but there is a massive body of work that shows that the minds of the apes and even primates in general are not particularly removed from our own, except that our brains are larger and we are cognitively fluid. I've personally observed startlingly human behavior and reasoning in monkeys and apes, including a gorilla in a zoo who loves to give hugs. (And good hugs they are, too, if a bit furry; she's one of the most affectionate beings of any species I've ever seen.) They have memories, a concept of time, and are able to express themselves creatively; so, incidentally, are dolphins, which I regard to be probably smarter than us. Gorillas have expressed (through sign language, which some of them have gotten quite good at) a conception of morality and a sense of good and bad. We're not so special and unique as we seem to think, is the message I'm getting at, and the divisions we create between our intelligence and other species' is probably not as meaningful as we think.

Delusional?:rolleyes: The ape belief is a theory, not a fact. Most findings of ape-men have been proven to be frauds. Some of those have been *Ramapithecus* *Java Man (Pithecanthropus erectus)* *Piltdown man* *Neanderthal Man*. I'm sorry, but it sounds nuts to me that our morals and intellect was inherited from apes!

:D [/B][/QUOTE]
 
Ruby said:

If the bible is to be used as a guide, yes, God has always been. The universe was either a plan put into action or some sort of accident. I find it harder to believe in an accidental world than a Created world. I just don't have the faith for that at this time.


Of course you find the non-God explanation harder to believe, because its more complicated. You also dont have fanatical groups of people constantly forcing it down you neck. Have you ever seen someone preaching in the street about the big-bang theory? or going door-to-door handing out leaflets and trying to sell magazones? Also, the big-bang is too complex for small children to understand. They easily accept and believe the simpler answers given to them by their parents. However, if they grow up and most of the people close to them still say the God answer is right, its difficult to think otherwise.


How can something so complex as this universe and it's population have come into being by chance. How can a mass of some sort of chemicals come together like magic to produce a living creature? [/color]

Again, this is a problem with your ability, and others, to solve the problem. Faced with something overwhelmingly complex, and with little or any means of understanding it, alot of people opt for the easy answer.

Also, evolution is NOT CHANCE!!! This misconception about evolution seems to have been widely spread. Evolution is about survival pressures. These come from things such as other animals, the environment, the climate etc. The mutations of gene may be random, but whether they are successful or not is not random. It's not chance that allows only the fastest lions to catch the antelope. The slow one's die and do not pass on their genes.

If you'd like some serious information on this subject I'd suggest Richard Dawkin's - The Blind Watchmaker.

Delusional?:rolleyes: The ape belief is a theory, not a fact. Most findings of ape-men have been proven to be frauds. Some of those have been *Ramapithecus* *Java Man (Pithecanthropus erectus)* *Piltdown man* *Neanderthal Man*. I'm sorry, but it sounds nuts to me that our morals and intellect was inherited from apes!


Well to be pedantic, everything is a theory, even reality. But there's comes a point where the evidence for a theory is so strong as to almost guaruntee it as being fact. For example, we share over 98% of our DNA with the other 2 speices of chimps. Infact the majority of the non-shared 2% is 'junk DNA' , meaning that is performs no function. Therefore, the actual difference, in term of the percentage of decoded DNA, between us and the chimps is probably less than 1%. We are a species of chimp - Fact.

I dont know who told you that "Most findings of ape-men have been proven to be frauds" but they were mistaken. While there have been a few frauds, the number of actual discoveries overwhelmingly out numbers them.

Why does it sound nuts that we inherited our morals and intellect from apes? You need some humility and to lose the belief that humans are in some way 'special'. Moral come from social interactions; hence different cultures have different morals. All social animals have morals. Infact, living in close-nit, social groups requires morals. As for intelligence, the growing of our intelligence can be traced through out ancestors. At some point we split from the other 2 chimp speices. Their ancestor went in one evolutionary direction, our in another. Because of various survival pressures, our ancestors started to develop their intelligence. I wont go into it in detail here for time and space reasons. However if you'd like to learn more about this a book book I would suggest i'd Jared Diamond's - The Third Chimpanze (also know as 'The Rise and Fall of the Third Chimpanze)

Also, Neanderthal Man did exist. It was however, not an ancestor of our, it was another, seperate speices of man. It is thought a mix of the arrival of modern-man and the climate led to it's extinction.
 
Ruby said:

Delusional?:rolleyes: The ape belief is a theory, not a fact. Most findings of ape-men have been proven to be frauds. Some of those have been *Ramapithecus* *Java Man (Pithecanthropus erectus)* *Piltdown man* *Neanderthal Man*. I'm sorry, but it sounds nuts to me that our morals and intellect was inherited from apes!


As has been pointed out by others, the only fraud among that list is the so-called Piltdown Man. This is one of the most famous frauds in scientific history (though not the only one) and was most likely perpetrated by Charles Dawson for reasons that we can never be sure of, however we know he also that Dawson trafficked in fake antiques. He might have been wanting to sell his "find" to a museum.

But the lesson that scientists learn from such hoaxes is not to take anything at face value. It was scientists who discovered the hoax by applying newer and better age testing techniques. This is part of the beauty of science: It is self fixing.

Neanderthal Man (sometimes spelled Neandertal), which is not an ancestor of modern man, is a species of hominid that was so widely distributed that his authenticity is not questioned by any serious anthropologists. The main debate ranges about what his migration paths were and what caused him to die out. It is widely supposed that competition with Homo sapiens sapiens (modern man) was responsible for this.

Some creationists like to pick up on the fact that we don't know everything about Neanderthal to throw out the enormous amount of evidence for his existence. In my mind, this is a tactic out of desperation. Would you throw out the entire theory of modern medicine because someone says, "Look! You haven't found a cure for AIDS!" ?
 
Ruby said:

Most findings of ape-men have been proven to be frauds. Some of those have been *Ramapithecus* *Java Man (Pithecanthropus erectus)* *Piltdown man* *Neanderthal Man*. I'm sorry, but it sounds nuts to me that our morals and intellect was inherited from apes!

:D

I highly suggest you Google those names before you say which ones are frauds. So far Piltdown Man was the only proven fake, and Neanderthan Man is not part of the same evolutionary branch which resulted in Homo Sapiens.
 
Hello, Ruby. Pardon me for butting in, but I thought I could point out a couple more ways to spot that a creationist is lying to you/doesn't know what he's talking about:

1. They argue about the lack of transitional fossils between species, and the lack of modern observed transitions between higher orders, such as family or order (the word kind is often employed to confuse the issue).

2. They try to tell you how unreliable carbon dating is. This is a dead giveaway of scientific ignorance: carbon dating is not a tool commonly used to date fossils on an evolutionary time scale. It isn't very useful past a few tens of thousands of years. It's mostly used for archaeology. Geologists and paleontologists tend to date finds with isochron dating techniques.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/isochron-dating.html

3. They try to throw cosmology (the origin of the universe), biogenesis (the origin of life), and evolution (the diversification of life from common ancestry) into the same basket. They are actually different bodies of theory and knowledge.

4. They make arguments about probability based on a single observation. For instance, they will talk about how unlikely our universe is to have such and such properties- but can it be any other way? We don't know. No one knows- no one has ever seen a bunch of universes being born so they could know what the odds are. You can't make proclamations about probability based on a single observation.
To get around this, creationists often resort to information theory- a branch of mathematics, based entirely on probability and statistics, that is used to model communication systems. Because information theory is based on statistics and probability, the problem above still remains. What makes this tactic attractive to creationists is that much fewer people understand information theory than basic probability, so the flaw goes unnoticed.

The list goes on, but I've tried to keep it short. Please feel free to ask for explanations about any of the above. I hope you will find this useful.
 
Ruby, thanks for ignoring Dark Cobra's continued venom and engaging in a dialonge on this issue with us.

You were provided earlier in the thread I believe a link to the Talk.Origins page detailing 29 Evidences for Macroevolution. The author of that essay is a pentecostal Christian who while offering up a powerful defense of evolution also maintains his devout Christian roots. I would really suggest that you contact him as he is very reasoned and thoughful in reconcilling his faith with a non-literal interpretation of Genesis.

http://www.colorado.edu/Chemistry/grad/faculty/Wuttke/lab/members/doug.html

With regard to human morals and bahavior relating to that of our fellow animals, one of the best introductions to evolutionary psychology is Desmond Morris' books "The Naked Ape" and "The Human Amimal." If I hadn't been recently demoted, I'd send you copies of both via amazon.com, but since I can't, I'm sure your local library will have one or the other. Another that's very dense reading, but well worth slogging through is Carl Sagan's "Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors." These three books present powerful evidence showing that being "human" doesn't mean we are that far removed from our fellow animals.
 
A theory is not a proven hypothesis.

You may have heard:

Hypothesis ---> Theory ---> Law

That is incorrect.

They are each difference types of data.



Please note, Ruby, that there is no such thing as anything "spiritual", and if there is, no evidence of it currently exists.

Please stop dwelling on BS...
 
Dark Cobra said:
Please note, Ruby, that there is no such thing as anything "spiritual", and if there is, no evidence of it currently exists.

Please stop dwelling on BS...

Saying that sort of thing is just going to cause people to cling even harder to their beliefs and superstitions.
 
c4ts said:


Saying that sort of thing is just going to cause people to cling even harder to their beliefs and superstitions.

Those sort of people would never admit they are wrong, with their mental illness of "faith" so strong in them.
 
c4ts said:


How could you take a Jedi-ish stance against religion without adopting another one and clinging to it in a febrile manner?

Are you implying that JK has febrile seisures? I mainly vented due to the percieved stupidity of the church and it's mindless guiltrip.

Peace
dancing david
 
c4ts said:
Human bones don't float, do they?

I hope they don't !!:eek:
To be sure you must always remember to hack the body up and place it in a plastic bag with weights.:p
 
Dancing David said:


Are you implying that JK has febrile seisures? I mainly vented due to the percieved stupidity of the church and it's mindless guiltrip.

Peace
dancing david

I am implying that religion has made him delerious, as if struck by fever.
 
Dark Cobra said:


Those sort of people would never admit they are wrong, with their mental illness of "faith" so strong in them.

DC,

Obviously no one has explained the rules of the on-line discussion social game to you.

You are supposed to be polite at first, even if the person you are replying to says something incorrect or self-contradictory. As long as they said it in a polite way, the rule is that you are polite back. You can contradict them, but you are polite about it.

If they said it in a rude way, then you can usually get away with being rude back.

As long as the other posters are polite and reasonable, though, it looks really bad if you cast the first stone.

I know that religious zealots will often start hurling insults once you've poked their beliefs. But it's very bad form to assume that you are dealing with such a zealot and flame them pre-emptively. It lowers you to their level, and you just might end up insulting someone like Ruby who shows no sign of deserving it.

In fact, Ruby has been far more tolerant of you faux pas than I would have been in her place.

I think you owe her an apology, but if you can't bring yourself to see that you can at least pipe down.

I agree with you that superstition is a terrible thing and the world would be better off without it. But you aren't bringing the world closer to that saner state by mocking perfectly nice people who happen to have had the misfortune to grow up exposed to irrational influences.
 
Martinm said:


Evolution is not a random process. It is directed through selection.

Again, no fraud here. Some creationists insist that it is human, other that it is ape. If the difference is so clear, why the confusion?
Good heavens. Neanderthal man a fraud? Who on earth told you that?!

http://evolutionlie.faithweb.com/
 
Martinm said:


Why? Why can't you consider it a message from fallible humans who encoutered God? Within that there would be errors due to the understanding of the day. Accepting that doesn't change the basic message.


Well, you do make a decent point with that. I do think the bible has some mistakes that were made in it's translations.


Well, much of the extra-biblical writing is irrelevant to the validity of the Bible. Most historical writings report the beliefs of Christians, not the events in which that belief is based.

I just don't find extra-biblical writing irrelevant, but I understand that you do...and can see why.



How does one explain any religion?

By studying it's origins and claims.



The city of Troy, once believed to be nothing more than legend, was discovered through information written in the Iliad. Does that mean that Zeus really exists? Archaeolgical evidence may support the more mundane parts of the Bible, but it lends no weight to the supernatural aspects.

Good point.



:D [/COLOR]
 
Hear is an interesting esay on the Easter Celebration..

You may have seen this..

I believe it is keeping with the discussion about ' which religion is the 'TRUE' one'....

An Easter Blessing...

I Saved this link, having found it here in the forums, now I don't remember where I found it..:confused:

If anyone can set me straight, please do..
 

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