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Surgery Nightmare -- Yikes!

Rouser2 said:
Originally posted by Benguin [/i]


>>He doesn't provide any evidence for what is claimed (mendlesohn I mean).

Evidence? The man is relating his own observations, his own personal experience. Do you have evidence the man is dishonest?

>> It's a sad fact that many medical procedures have been carried out over the years for which it has become apparent benefits do not materialise.

Precisely the point made by Dr. Mendelsohn. You confirm his thesis. So what is your beef????

He observed the procedures. No-one disputes that. His hypothesis for why they were carried out are speculation, there is no document or policy produced to back up the assertion.

My beef is someone trying to spin sad and regrettable failings in medicine into some sort of evil conspiracy theory.

What is your agenda?
 
Hydrogen Cyanide said:
Truthfully your arguments would have much more veractiy, be more cogent and would be taken more seriously if you did not take references from:

1) books, especially if they are out of print or self-published

Ah, well, Might as well just burn down all the libraries. Books? Who needs 'em?
 
Originally posted by sodakboy93 [/i]


>>All he's saying is that Mendelsohn might be wrong. It's clear that you will accept his words as gospel without corroboration or attempting to verify the veracity of his statements - or ensuring that such statements haven't been successfully challenged elsewhere.

Just exactly the opposite of what I have shown. A very, real, though minor mistake, caught and admitted to by the author. But that is not the only time the Doctor's wisdom and intergrity have been confirmed. There are many other instances, beginning with the Great Swine Flu Panic fiasco.

>>What that leads me to believe is that you approach this (like many woos) all backwards. Rather than ask a question (does "x" cause "y") and try to answer it through research and study, you make a statement ("x" causes "y") and then simply look for information to back it up - without any consideration that said statement might be factually incorrect.

The word "woo" like the word "quack" is ad hominem attack and does not serve any useful discourse. Nor the examples "x" causes "y" unless you can provide examples of such simplistic reasoning, which, of course you can't. Keep on a-wooin'. That's your bag -- along with the rest of your Amen chorus of ad hominem attackers on this board.
 
Rouser2 said:
Originally posted by sodakboy93 [/i]
The word "woo" like the word "quack" is ad hominem attack and does not serve any useful discourse. Nor the examples "x" causes "y" unless you can provide examples of such simplistic reasoning, which, of course you can't. Keep on a-wooin'. That's your bag -- along with the rest of your Amen chorus of ad hominem attackers on this board.

Your understanding of how ad hominem is used is not quite correct. It is a statement of logical fallacy based around attack on the person.

Simply being rude or insulting does not consititute an ad hominem, though it does little to add credibility to a case.

If he had said "I don't believe you, because you are a woo, and woo's all lie" that would be an ad hominem (assuming it is not fact).
 
Originally posted by Vikram [/i]


>>Rouser2,
You are probably the most hypocritical and pointlessly venomous person I have ever had the misfortune of coming across. It scarcely behooves you to accuse others of hatred when you yourself, in your opening post, have written the statement: "Hmmm. Another reason to think twice before entering Modern Medicine's Temple of Doom."

Comment: Hatred??? Hatred of whom?

>>You go ahead to accuse doctors of routinely performing surgeries merely for the purpose of "training interns/residents". By saying so, you accuse them of dishonesty, maliciousness and blatant disregard for the patient.

Yeah, but it happens. You know very well, it happens.

>>If there's anyone who's filled with hatred, it's you.

I'd rather call it open-mindedness. But suit yourself.

>>No I haven't read Mendelsohn's book,

Comment: Well that is a shock!

>>but if he possessed even the slightest bit of integrity, he would cringe at the thought of having someone like you as his advocate.

I think he'd be proud. Read the damn book, you know-nothing. Dr. Mendelsohn's aim was to recruit new hereitics just like himself.

>> On the other hand, if your postings here are an accurate reflection of his writings, then my time would be better invested in reading publications and statistically based scientific research papers, rather than in reading anecdotal evidence.

Your time might be more comfortably served doing what does not challenge your thinking. But I'm not so sure that closing your eyes to alternative views would be in the best interests of your patients.


>>You might notice that I did not call Mendelsohn a liar.

Fictional was the word. Same difference.

>>My question was: "So you would rather believe that the entire medical field is running a giant malicious conspiracy than face the possibility that Mendelssohn's "observations"

The word "conspiracy" does not even appear once in his books. The whole thing is very open and notorious -- systemic.

>> and "personal experiences" might be wrong or fictional?"
I am questioning your unquestioning belief of him. I'm sure you do not accept all of his claims as true merely because of his very gracious correction of the mistake pointed out by your brother.

He makes few claims, only questions the unsupported claims of others. But then, how would you know. You havn't read the book and refuse to read it, but insist on being a critic nonetheless. Very typical of the attitude of so many of today's doctors.

>>It does not matter what kind of person he is - if his claims are supported by evidence, he is right. If they aren't, he isn't. If all the accusations that you've blanketly made against the entire medical profession (as opposed to a handful of unscrupulous practitioners) are taken from his book, then I, for one, am very curious to see the extensive studies that must have revealed to him these gems of insight.

Again, what is lacking are the studies that support many of the pracitcies of Modern Medicine -- some of which have been curtailed because of critics like Mendelsohn.


>>Medicine, like every branch of science, is constantly being tweaked.

Tweaked? or Tricked?

>> There is no end to the acquisition of knowledge, and we shall never reach the point when there shall be nothing more to learn. In the course of the journey, we will realise that we had ideas that were mistaken and we will correct them. That is how science works.

That's how science is supposed to work. But Religions do not work that way. And that is what Modern Medicine has become. Not an Art, not a Science -- but a Religion.

>>No doctor ever looks at medicine as the absolute holy grail. We look at it as a constantly evolving mass of information. We recognise its limitations and its pitfalls. And we use research to continuously refine it.


You use "research" to justifiy it. Never mind the quality of said "research".

>>You, on the other hand, see it through a horribly jaundiced eye. You see only the limitations, not the dramatic successes.

That is false, though I admit I havn't pointed to any on this board. I do think Modern Medicine deserves an "A" in some limited areas -- Trauma, for example. If I were butchered in an auto accident or some such, I would probably want the services of an MD and an ER before seeking the services of a Faith Healer.

>>When you look at general anaesthesia, you see only the possibility of anaesthesia failure (0.02%). You do not see the decreases in mortality and morbidity that anaesthesia has produced in a dazzling array of medical conditions.

Hey, I just read a news articfle and shared it. Now you want to hang me.

>>When you think of the polio vaccine, I'm sure you see the potential of the vaccine to faultily produce poliomyelitis (1 in 2 million) while conveniently ignoring the preponderance of limping children that inhabited the world before the vaccine was introduced.

Uh, uh, uh??? That's Post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy. The reduction in polio incidence was not necessarly due to the vaccine.

>>Yes, vaccines have the tiny but distinct possibility of causing harm to the recipient. Which is why smallpox vaccination was stopped in the late seventies - because the disease had been eradicated and the benefits of the vaccine were outweighed by the potential side-effects.

And I think Dr. Mendelsohn's writings undoutedly had something to do with that.

>>Protocols and policies are changed on the basis on the current understanding that we possess of the world. That's how science works.

That's how science is supposed to work, but in the area of medicine, often does not due to several reasons including greed and government intervention.

>>You are merely a vituperative troll. You are the one filled with hatred. And as long as you continue to spew, there will be people willing to counter you with that pesky thing called statistical data.

"Vituperative troll, hypocrital, venoumous, hatred filled, etc., etc., etc. "Doc., you just lost the argument by sinking into the gutter. Have a nice day.
 
Originally posted by Benguin [/i]

>>He observed the procedures. No-one disputes that. His hypothesis for why they were carried out are speculation, there is no document or policy produced to back up the assertion.
My beef is someone trying to spin sad and regrettable failings in medicine into some sort of evil conspiracy theory.

For the umpteenth time, there are no allegations of "conspiracy" in Mendelsohn's books. The system, as he sees it, is open and notorious -- nortoriously harmful in many cases.
 
Benguin said:
Your understanding of how ad hominem is used is not quite correct. It is a statement of logical fallacy based around attack on the person.

Simply being rude or insulting does not consititute an ad hominem, though it does little to add credibility to a case.

If he had said "I don't believe you, because you are a woo, and woo's all lie" that would be an ad hominem (assuming it is not fact).

To rerfer to a person as a "woo" or a "quack" is an ad hominem attack -- name calling as a substitute for addressing a real specific issue.
 
Rouser2 said:
To rerfer to a person as a "woo" or a "quack" is an ad hominem attack -- name calling as a substitute for addressing a real specific issue.

It may be an attack, but it is not a logical fallacy, and that is what we mean by the term ad hominem when we use it. Otherwise you are just moaning someone's being rude to you, do unto others ...

For the umpteenth time, there are no allegations of "conspiracy" in Mendelsohn's books. The system, as he sees it, is open and notorious -- nortoriously harmful in many cases

You are attempting to propagate a claim by him that procedures are being carried out for the entertainment or training of medics, with no genuine belief in efficacy of purpose.

There is no evidence to support it, so you claimed cover up. Hence conspiracy. It doesn't matter what word is used, it is still an unsupported claim. And if you read my post, I was accusing you of doing that not him.

Please clarify your ever-shifting position. And state your agenda.
 
Rouser2 said:
Hydrogen Cyanide said:
Truthfully your arguments would have much more veractiy, be more cogent and would be taken more seriously if you did not take references from:

1) books, especially if they are out of print or self-published

Ah, well, Might as well just burn down all the libraries. Books? Who needs 'em?

Books on medical subjects tend to become out of date quite quickly (like using what is now considered an offensive term for Trisomy 21, Down's Syndrome).

Anecdote time:

Not long after my oldest child was diagnosed with a severe speech/language disorder I went to the library and checked out all the books I could on the subject. One tome was very interesting... the author was trying to make a case that voice disorders (husky voice in girls, high squeaky voice in boys) was an indication of future sexual identification. My son's speech therapist laughed, and told me to not even bother with books on speech/language issues that were less than 5 years old.

This past summer I read a few books by Oliver Sacks, they included Awakenings and Migraine . Even though these books were not intended to be for academics, both were later editions where newer findings and research were included, with substantial bibliographies.

I suspect that you yourself could benefit with some time spent in a library. You should browse the section that in the 610's of the Dewey Decimal System.
 
Originally posted by Hydrogen Cyanide [/i]

>>Books on medical subjects tend to become out of date quite quickly


Indeed. But that goes for journal articles as well. It's an important point, namely that in the Religion of Modern Medicine, yesterday's "truth" is today's heresy. But the lesson which needs to be learned from that is, that if yesterday's truth is today's heresy, then today's "truth" will likely be tomorrow's heresy. And that is why doctors and patient's should take any alleged medical "truth" with a grain of salt.
 
Originally posted by Benguin [/i]


>>It may be an attack, but it is not a logical fallacy, and that is what we mean by the term [

Of course it is. When you use the word "woo" you are in effect saying that the person has no case because he is an irrational person. That does not address the substance of the argument, but is only an attempt to denigrate the opponent. It's the very same thing as calling the person an idiot.

>>You are attempting to propagate a claim by him that procedures are being carried out for the entertainment or training of medics, with no genuine belief in efficacy of purpose.


Enetertainemnt? Never made any such claim. That was Dr. Vikham's strawman.


>>There is no evidence to support it, so you claimed cover up.

Of course there is. Evidence from a proven, reliable witness. As to cover up, I've never made any such contention. These things are often not covered up at all.

>> Hence conspiracy.

Hence, no conspiracy.
 
Rouser2 said:
Originally posted by Benguin [/i]


>>It may be an attack, but it is not a logical fallacy, and that is what we mean by the term [

Of course it is. When you use the word "woo" you are in effect saying that the person has no case because he is an irrational person. That does not address the substance of the argument, but is only an attempt to denigrate the opponent. It's the very same thing as calling the person an idiot.

I do find it interesting that you're getting hung up on the label rather than addressing the point of contention, which was that you appear to approach topics not from a questioning standpoint but rather simply look for things to support a previously held belief. Nowhere in any of your posts have I seen a reasonable attempt to look at alternative points of view or to even question whether Mendelsohn's claims are legitimate.

So I called your thinking "woo". Big deal. Prove that it isn't, rather than whining about the fact I called you a name.

And while you're at, you might want to evaluate your own statements - I'm sure doctors who post on this board love your ad hominem attacks on the "religion of medicine" (implies cult) and the "modern medical temple of doom". (implies doctors do things for malicious reasons) That's basically an attempt to negate the opinions of any doctor - or anyone who provides testimony or research by a doctor - that follows the mainstream medical paradigm. Can you honestly argue that's "different"?


>>You are attempting to propagate a claim by him that procedures are being carried out for the entertainment or training of medics, with no genuine belief in efficacy of purpose.

Enetertainemnt? Never made any such claim. That was Dr. Vikham's strawman.

Ok, then what about the "training" part? Again, you're getting hung up on word parsing and semantics - rather than address the core argument.


>>There is no evidence to support it, so you claimed cover up.

Of course there is. Evidence from a proven, reliable witness. As to cover up, I've never made any such contention. These things are often not covered up at all.

>> Hence conspiracy.

Hence, no conspiracy.

In most courts of law, there's a little thing called corroboration when it comes to witness testimony. Where is that? Where are the other doctors who have seen the things Mendelsohn has seen?

And what exactly makes Mendelsohn a "proven, reliable" witness? Because he has an impressive looking CV?
 
Rouser2 said:
Originally posted by Hydrogen Cyanide [/i]

>>Books on medical subjects tend to become out of date quite quickly


Indeed. But that goes for journal articles as well. It's an important point, namely that in the Religion of Modern Medicine, yesterday's "truth" is today's heresy. But the lesson which needs to be learned from that is, that if yesterday's truth is today's heresy, then today's "truth" will likely be tomorrow's heresy. And that is why doctors and patient's should take any alleged medical "truth" with a grain of salt.

Again, I hear that from anti-vaxers all the time - that just because today's studies prove something is safe, it doesn't mean tomorrow's studies will prove it's safe. Using that logic, we should never use any medicine because we don't know if sometime in the indeterminate future we might find it caused some rare disease or condition we previously hadn't thought about.

Of course, one could argue the same thing about any alternative medical treatments, any technological item, any food product. Unless you're going to study everything we use and apply every possible variable to said study, you're not going to know all the answers ahead of time.
 
Originally posted by sodakboy93 [/i]


>>I do find it interesting that you're getting hung up on the label rather than addressing the point of contention, which was that you appear to approach topics not from a questioning standpoint but rather simply look for things to support a previously held belief.

Bunk. Your ad hominem attacks deflect from the point of contention and now, instead of addressing those points, you make another specious claim. The whole idea in these posts is to question much of the conventional wisdom of Modern Medicine.

>> Nowhere in any of your posts have I seen a reasonable attempt to look at alternative points of view or to even question whether Mendelsohn's claims are legitimate.

Alternative points of view??? No, you mean mainstream, conventional points of view. And that also begs the question, because you obviously cannot cite any examples. As to questioning Dr. M''s claims, it would be nice if someone on this board could try to refute them as opposed to simply attacking the man.

??So I called your thinking "woo". Big deal. Prove that it isn't, rather than whining about the fact I called you a name.

Childish nonsense. A mature thinking person knows that one cannot prove a negative -- especially your kind of negative. For example, I may think you are a complete jerk. Must be true. Can you prove it isn't? Grow up or I'll send you back to your silly putty.

>>And while you're at, you might want to evaluate your own statements - I'm sure doctors who post on this board love your ad hominem attacks on the "religion of medicine" (implies cult) and the "modern medical temple of doom". (implies doctors do things for malicious reasons) That's basically an attempt to negate the opinions of any doctor - or anyone who provides testimony or research by a doctor - that follows the mainstream medical paradigm. Can you honestly argue that's "different"?

It may cast aspersions on the Institution, but does not cast them on any individual. Big difference.

>>Ok, then what about the "training" part? Again, you're getting hung up on word parsing and semantics - rather than address the core argument. ...In most courts of law, there's a little thing called corroboration when it comes to witness testimony. Where is that? Where are the other doctors who have seen the things Mendelsohn has seen?


More silliness. I cited one example of such arrogant, harmful, institutional mal-practices. The examples I could cite are legion. For example, The deliberate continuation of live vaccination programs in the US with the full knowledge that polio vaccinations in the US would cause a certain number of cases of paralytic polio for over the last quarter of the 20th century and that these were virtaully the only cases of Polio.

And then there is the infamous case of the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiments, to wit:

The Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment

"The United States government did something that was wrong—deeply, profoundly, morally wrong. It was an outrage to our commitment to integrity and equality for all our citizens. . . . clearly racist.
—President Clinton's apology for the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment to the eight remaining survivors, May 16, 1997
For forty years between 1932 and 1972, the U.S. Public Health Service (PHS) conducted an experiment on 399 black men in the late stages of syphilis. These men, for the most part illiterate sharecroppers from one of the poorest counties in Alabama, were never told what disease they were suffering from or of its seriousness. Informed that they were being treated for “bad blood,”1 their doctors had no intention of curing them of syphilis at all. The data for the experiment was to be collected from autopsies of the men, and they were thus deliberately left to degenerate under the ravages of tertiary syphilis—which can include tumors, heart disease, paralysis, blindness, insanity, and death. “As I see it,” one of the doctors involved explained, 'we have no further interest in these patients until they die.'"
"

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762136.html


>>And what exactly makes Mendelsohn a "proven, reliable" witness? Because he has an impressive looking CV

>> Because he is about as highly credentialed as you can get, and as time marches on, his claims are continually being affirmed. Moreover, no one, including Dr. Quackwatch Barrett has been able to lay a hand on him, except for the usual Ad Hominems.
 
Rouser2 said:
Evidence? The man is relating his own observations, his own personal experience. Do you have evidence the man is dishonest?

There is a difference between being dishonest and being almost completely out of touch with reality.

I liked this, from the Quackwatch website, from a fair, albeit extremely negative, review on his book published in 1981...

In truth, this book makes several cogent observations such as the overuse of laboratory procedures by physicians and the now well accepted value of second opinions in order to curb unnecessary surgery. But these few appropriate consumer alerts become diluted to near obscurity by the incessant pleas for the author's two ``cures'' for all ills --- home birthing and breastfeeding. In the case of breastfeeding, medical experts have long ago conceded to its nutritional, emotional, and practical superiority over formula feeding, but this principle hardly requires the monolithic arrogance of a pedant. As for home deliveries in an age of life-saving technology for high-risk pregnancies, the author shows an astounding ignorance of biostatistics.

http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/mendelson.html


Also, the guy died in 1988. Do you think, Rouser, that maybe - just maybe - it's possible that the medical profession has continued to systematically improve in the last 16 years? Either way, it never ceases to amaze me how such "one size fits all" critiques are so readily and completely adopted as irrefutable fact by your ilk.

-TT
 
Refute it?

Refute what? You've offered nothign but one man's opinions. No evidence, no data, no research, no hard sources that can be examined. There is a wealth of research papers and literature and studies out there that support current medical practice. The vast majority of current practices are in use because they offer the best chance for the patient at the lowest cost. You've yet to provide any evidence that this is not the case.

Thus, there is no refutation to make, as nothing has been evidenced that requires refutation. You've given a rant of opinions and insults, accusation and innuendo. It is your good Dr. Mendehlson's job to support his opinions with evidence. The current medical practices have already passed that process.

Until you have something credible or intelligent to say, I am done. This is as futile as trying to refute the invisible, levitating, intangible, heatless dragon in my garage.
 
Rouser2 said:
Originally posted by Hydrogen Cyanide [/i]

>>Books on medical subjects tend to become out of date quite quickly


Indeed. But that goes for journal articles as well. It's an important point, namely that in the Religion of Modern Medicine, yesterday's "truth" is today's heresy.

Which is why the journal articles at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi are listed in reverse chronological order. That means the the latest articles are listed first, with the older ones listed afterwards. You would have known that if you had ever looked up articles there.

Rouser2 said:

But the lesson which needs to be learned from that is, that if yesterday's truth is today's heresy, then today's "truth" will likely be tomorrow's heresy. And that is why doctors and patient's should take any alleged medical "truth" with a grain of salt.

But many medical professionals DO take any and all medical truths with a grain of salt... they are constantly open to new ideas, processes procedures and explanations. Most of the better ones are constantly keeping up with changes in their fields.

It seems it is the Alt-med bunch are the ones who fail to change when information comes forth that challenges their methods and ideas. Look at homeopathy... over 200 years and no sign that it has ever worked --- yet people are still trying to prove it works (and have yet to claim the prize).

Let's take a look at the review of Mendelssohn's book that was pointed out by ThirdTwin and myself:

... snip...

In truth, this book makes several cogent observations such as the overuse of laboratory procedures by physicians and the now well accepted value of second opinions in order to curb unnecessary surgery. But these few appropriate consumer alerts become diluted to near obscurity by the incessant pleas for the author's two ``cures'' for all ills --- home birthing and breastfeeding. In the case of breastfeeding, medical experts have long ago conceded to its nutritional, emotional, and practical superiority over formula feeding, but this principle hardly requires the monolithic arrogance of a pedant. As for home deliveries in an age of life-saving technology for high-risk pregnancies, the author shows an astounding ignorance of biostatistics

....snip..

Joseph M. Miller, M.D., M.P.H
ACSH News & Views, March/April, 1981


The homebirthing bit hits close to home in our house. Because without real medicine my firstborn and I would have died.
 
Originally posted by ThirdTwin [/i]

>>There is a difference between being dishonest and being almost completely out of touch with reality.
I liked this, from the Quackwatch website, from a fair, albeit extremely negative, review on his book published in 1981...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In truth, this book makes several cogent observations such as the overuse of laboratory procedures by physicians and the now well accepted value of second opinions in order to curb unnecessary surgery. But these few appropriate consumer alerts become diluted to near obscurity by the incessant pleas for the author's two ``cures'' for all ills --- home birthing and breastfeeding. In the case of breastfeeding, medical experts have long ago conceded to its nutritional, emotional, and practical superiority over formula feeding, but this principle hardly requires the monolithic arrogance of a pedant. As for home deliveries in an age of life-saving technology for high-risk pregnancies, the author shows an astounding ignorance of biostatistics.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/mendelson.html


Comment: You know what I think? I think you and the rest of YOUR ilk on this board are imposters. You claim you are skeptics? You are not skeptics -- what you really must be are Psychics. You must be Psychic in order to critique a book which not one of you has even read. And that goes for Dr. Quackwatch and his appointed reviewer/critic. He could not have possilby read Dr. M's book. If he had, then how could he have possibly made the ludicrous comment concerning "...the incessant pleas for the author's two ``cures'' for all ills --- home birthing and breastfeeding." If the critic had actually read the book, he would know that breast-feeding only comprises 3 pages and home birthing scarcely more than one page out of a 187 page book. Nor does Dr. M claim that doctors recommend against breast feeding. What he claims doctors often say is: "Breast feeding is best, but formula is just as good!"

>>Also, the guy died in 1988. Do you think, Rouser, that maybe - just maybe - it's possible that the medical profession has continued to systematically improve in the last 16 years?

It has improved in some ways -- in part due to critics like Dr. Mendelsohn. But the basic bias in favor of medical intervention is still there; the love affair with new, unproven, dangerous drugs, and diagnostic procedures, still there; the close-mindedness concerning preventive medicine via life style and nutrition, still there; the "we-know-best" arrogance regarding forced, mass innoculations, still there, the industrial trend of mass-produced patients-in-waiting -- waiting for endless tests, most fairly useless, many very dangerous, still there; and the Doctor as High Priest, still there, etc.,etc. etc.
 
Originally posted by Hydrogen Cyanide [/i]


>>The homebirthing bit hits close to home in our house. Because without real medicine my firstborn and I would have died.


Comment: Another failed Psychic. If you had actually read the book you would know that Dr. M did not advocate home birthing for every expectant mother, Dr. Miller's bogus critique notwithstanding.
 
Originally posted by Huntsman [/i]

>>Refute it?
Refute what? You've offered nothign but one man's opinions. No evidence, no data, no research, no hard sources that can be examined.

Oh, bunk. I've provided more hard sources in these discussions than your entire Amen chorus of nay-sayers combined.

>> There is a wealth of research papers and literature and studies out there that support current medical practice.

Yeah, well it's hardly productive to talk about "current medical practice" unless you point to specifics, which you are apparently not inclined to do.

>> The vast majority of current practices are in use because they offer the best chance for the patient at the lowest cost. You've yet to provide any evidence that this is not the case.


More babbling generalities -- unsupported by any facts.

>>Thus, there is no refutation to make, as nothing has been evidenced that requires refutation.

No. You have not provided a single topic for refutation. That is your game. Now go play in traffic.
 

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