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Surgery Nightmare -- Yikes!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Surgery Nightmare -- Yikes!

Rouser2 said:
...
Illogical? Seems very logical to me, if not exactly moral. One doctor remembers just such a situation when he was Senior Pediatric Consultant to the Dept. of Mental Health in the state of Illinois, he cut out a certain kind of heart operation which was being performed on Mongoloid children with heart defects. The alleged purpose of the operation was to improve oxygen supply to the brain. But the real purpose was to improve the state's residency programs in cardiovascular surgery because "nothing beneficial happend to the brains of the mongoloid children -- and the surgeons knew that." Moreover, the surgery had a fairly high mortality rate."Naturally, the university people were very upset when I cut out the operation. They couldn't figure out a better use for the Mongoloid children."

-- Dr.Robert R. Mendelsohn in "Confessions of a Medical Heretic"

Just popping in to say that it has been DECADES since I have seen Down's Syndrome referred to as Mongoloid ! It makes me think this "medical heretic" was either writing a LONG time ago (like before the days of Disco), or was just way behind in the times. So I would not give his quote much credence.

Also, in looking at what Rouser2 is writing... I think he seems to actually fear doctors and their tools (needles, meds, scalpels, etc.). No amount of logic is going to change his mind, or help his phobia and anxiety about medicine.
 
He doesn't provide any evidence for what is claimed (mendlesohn I mean). It's a sad fact that many medical procedures have been carried out over the years for which it has become apparent benefits do not materialise.

To leap from that to conspiracy theories about experimentation and training motives rather than institutional inertia and cock-up needs something to support it.

Back in the 70s ECT was quite popular in institutions, I even saw it being used in eastern europe in the 90s. I spoke to the people who administered it, saw the before and after, was aware of the clinical doubts etc. I do not believe those people were genuinely sinsiter or conspiratorial, I do believe they were misguided.

It all comes back to data. Something works or it doesn't. And by works, we mean a greater number of people have a higher quality of life as a result of the treatment, compared to those who do not have that treatment. It is very simple, really.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Surgery Nightmare -- Yikes!

Originally posted by Hydrogen Cyanide [/i]


>>Just popping in to say that it has been DECADES since I have seen Down's Syndrome referred to as Mongoloid ! It makes me think this "medical heretic" was either writing a LONG time ago (like before the days of Disco), or was just way behind in the times. So I would not give his quote much credence.


Ah, the arrogance of youth. Anything pre-disco is like Dark Ages. And obviously, never having read the book, you totally miss its point and then presume the distinguised doctor is lying? Ah, the arrogance of youth.

>>Also, in looking at what Rouser2 is writing... I think he seems to actually fear doctors and their tools (needles, meds, scalpels, etc.).

Fear doctors? Hell yes. Their tools? Needles, scapels? not really. Their meds? Damn right! Ditto their meithods, their brainwash and above all, their arrogance.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Surgery Nightmare -- Yikes!

Rouser2 said:
Originally posted by Hydrogen Cyanide [/i]


>>Just popping in to say that it has been DECADES since I have seen Down's Syndrome referred to as Mongoloid ! It makes me think this "medical heretic" was either writing a LONG time ago (like before the days of Disco), or was just way behind in the times. So I would not give his quote much credence.


Ah, the arrogance of youth. Anything pre-disco is like Dark Ages. And obviously, never having read the book, you totally miss its point and then presume the distinguised doctor is lying? Ah, the arrogance of youth.
....

Thanks for the compliment. To think that it was I who remember disco and last heard of Down's Syndrome being referred to as "mongoloid" BEFORE the days of disco DECADES ago (by the way a decade is equal to 10 years) -- you actually called me young!!!

Woo-hoo... I used to go to the "Loose Caboose" in Vancouver, BC. I do remember disco.

Fortunately medicine has advanced much in the past 25+ years. Even the echocardiogram my son had to diagnose his heart condition has improved much over the past few years.

Oh, I did find information on Mendelsohn:
http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/mendelson.html ... his writings do not inspire confidence in your selection of references.

I still think you have a phobia when it comes to real medicine.
 
I've already tried to explain to Rouser than Dr. Mendelsohn isn't exactly the world's most credible source. It's beating your head against the proverbial wall.
 
I love how Rouser still says medical doctors are evil, but the one qwaky one who supports his ideas is sancrosanct.

Ah, the term "mongoloid." What a horrid, insulting term to encompass both groups!
I do believe some people have at least a passing acquiantance of the Mongol gene pool.
And I believe that there are those who have more than a passing acquintance with Down's Syndrome.
And the one really has nothing to do with the other; but that makes no difference to "doctors are evil" Rouser. I'm really glad there seem to be a lot of people who know better.
 
Looks like Dr. M. was "only" 62 when he died. Wonder what the guy died from at such a relatively young age.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Surgery Nightmare -- Yikes!

Originally posted by Hydrogen Cyanide [/i]

>>Oh, I did find information on Mendelsohn:
http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/mendelson.html ... his writings do not inspire confidence in your selection of references.

Certainly not from the likes of you nor Dr. Barrett "Quackwatch," -- unable to lay a hand on anything specific against Dr. M, except for empty ad hominem attack betraying your own moral and intellectual bankruptcy.
 
sodakboy93 said:
I've already tried to explain to Rouser than Dr. Mendelsohn isn't exactly the world's most credible source. It's beating your head against the proverbial wall.

And you've been able to back up that claim with not one single example or fact. Your criticisms are just more empty hot air.
 
Originally posted by Benguin [/i]


>>He doesn't provide any evidence for what is claimed (mendlesohn I mean).

Evidence? The man is relating his own observations, his own personal experience. Do you have evidence the man is dishonest?

>> It's a sad fact that many medical procedures have been carried out over the years for which it has become apparent benefits do not materialise.

Precisely the point made by Dr. Mendelsohn. You confirm his thesis. So what is your beef????
 
Rouser2 said:
Evidence? The man is relating his own observations, his own personal experience. Do you have evidence the man is dishonest?

So you would rather believe that the entire medical field is running a giant malicious conspiracy than face the possibility that Mendelssohn's "observations" and "personal experiences" might be wrong or fictional?

No wonder you're a troll. Any other activity would be much beyond your intellectual ken.
 
[digression]
Last night I had to help with a seminar we were running for one of our client veterinary practices. During the meal break, I was chatting to one of the vets, and overheard a part of a conversation between two other vets standing beside me. (Remember, everyone there was part of the same firm.) The conversation was about the merits or otherwise of doing diagnostic imaging before exploratory surgery. On people's pet dogs and cats, when the owner is usually paying for it all out of their own pocket. The phrase I heard was, "I think it's often just as good to go straight in. If you know you're going to have to go in anyway, well, that way you find out what's going on straight away, and it's a lot cheaper."

I remerked, "don't you realise you're part of a big medical conspiracy to do every unnecessary test in the book so as to get every last penny out of the owner's bank balance?" The vet realised I was joking, but didn't really get it. "No," he said, looking a bit puzzled, I'm trying to do the best I can for the client and the pet, while costing the client as little as possible." So I just grinned and said "You mean I shouldn't believe everything I read on the Internet then," and we went on to discuss the current conspiracy theory that processed pet foods are bad for dogs' health, but vets gleefully recommend them because unhealthy pets are better for business.
[/digression]

Sheesh! Some people just don't realise when others are trying to do the best they can for them. It must be horrible to be Rouser and have this bitter, twisted view of human nature.

Rolfe.
 
Originally posted by Vikram [/i]


>>So you would rather believe that the entire medical field is running a giant malicious conspiracy than face the possibility that Mendelssohn's "observations" and "personal experiences" might be wrong or fictional?

Who says it's a conspiracy? Not me. Nor Mendelsohn. Obviously, you judge the man without even having read his book. What does that say about you????
 
Soapy Sam said:
Interesting phenomenon though. One immediately thinks of hypnogogic dreaming which sounds rather similar. I do wonder exactly what it is that is "awake" at these times.

One for Interesting Ian perhaps...


This is interesting all right. It happened to me and was a bit unnerving.


I was going under general anesthetic to have my wisdom teeth removed. They did the normal thing and asked me to count backwards from ten and I blacked out. But funnily enough I was still completely aware of what was going on around me. I was completely paralysed, but I could hear very clearly. Naturally I was a little concerned and I tried to let the nurses or doctor know that I was still conscious.

So I concentrated as hard as I could and managed to wiggle my little finger. I heard a female voice say "look he's wiggling his finger". That was the last clear though I had, but after that I experience a strange dream-like state. I recall disctinctly something being forced down my throat and a temporary gagging sensation. I remember parts of the procedure, in particular my head and jaw being quiet robustly manipulated.

Afterwards I wrote a letter to the anesthetist and he replied saying that I was dreaming it all. Obviously that was not true and I thought his response was pretty obnoxious.

So I know from my experience that this sort of things happens and could be pretty frightening in more extreme cases (imagine if your chest was open:eek:). My guess is that it is just one of those things. Under anesthetise and you get some partial level of consciousness. Over anesthetise and you could get death. What doesn't help is when doctors patronise patients, as they did me.
 
Originally posted by Vikram [/i]

>>...Mendelssohn's "observations" and "personal experiences" might be wrong or fictional?

You in effect call the man a liar out of what? Hatred? Or just downright ignorance???? I know of not a single salient point made in any of Mendelsohn's books which have been challenged as to fact. In fact, many of his criticisms have led to reforms. But I do know of at least one mistake in his "Heretic." book. And that mistake further confrims my belief in the man's integrity with documentary evidence in the form of a letter to back it up.

That "mistake", minor though it was, was not cited by any reviewer, nor any MD doctor, nor eminent PHD in something or other. It was discovered by my own brother. The mistake concerned something Mendelsohn had written on alleged research fraud concerning the Mid-Wife Toad. Somehow, my brother remembered the tale from decades earlier from a biology class or some such and personally wrote to Mendelsohn pointing out the error.

Now one might expect such a letter from a 'nobody" would be ignored. Normally, when doctors are challenged as to their knowledge or expertise by a lay person or a patient, he/she would probably question the critiic's credentials, saying something like,
"And just what medical school did YOU go to???

But in this case, Dr. Mendelsohn wrote back, thanked my borther for the letter, admitted the mistake, and promsed a correction in future editions. I really wonder how many other doctors would have done the same. In my view, the man exudes credibility.
 
Truthfully your arguments would have much more veractiy, be more cogent and would be taken more seriously if you did not take references from:

1) books, especially if they are out of print or self-published

2) newspaper articles -- though some journalists try hard, many just get it wrong

3) press releases (which are often biased)

etc...

Here are a couple of places where decent references can be found (including dissenting letters and editorials of the Mendelssohn variety):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

http://www.medscape.com/ (free registration required, but worth it)

http://www.medlineplus.gov

You really ought to see some one about your phobia.
 
Rouser2 said:
Originally posted by Vikram [/i]

>>...Mendelssohn's "observations" and "personal experiences" might be wrong or fictional?

You in effect call the man a liar out of what? Hatred? Or just downright ignorance????

All he's saying is that Mendelsohn might be wrong. It's clear that you will accept his words as gospel without corroboration or attempting to verify the veracity of his statements - or ensuring that such statements haven't been successfully challenged elsewhere.

What that leads me to believe is that you approach this (like many woos) all backwards. Rather than ask a question (does "x" cause "y") and try to answer it through research and study, you make a statement ("x" causes "y") and then simply look for information to back it up - without any consideration that said statement might be factually incorrect.
 
Rouser2 said:
You in effect call the man a liar out of what? Hatred? Or just downright ignorance???? I know of not a single salient point made in any of Mendelsohn's books which have been challenged as to fact. In fact, many of his criticisms have led to reforms. But I do know of at least one mistake in his "Heretic." book. And that mistake further confrims my belief in the man's integrity with documentary evidence in the form of a letter to back it up.

That "mistake", minor though it was, was not cited by any reviewer, nor any MD doctor, nor eminent PHD in something or other. It was discovered by my own brother. The mistake concerned something Mendelsohn had written on alleged research fraud concerning the Mid-Wife Toad. Somehow, my brother remembered the tale from decades earlier from a biology class or some such and personally wrote to Mendelsohn pointing out the error.

Now one might expect such a letter from a 'nobody" would be ignored. Normally, when doctors are challenged as to their knowledge or expertise by a lay person or a patient, he/she would probably question the critiic's credentials, saying something like,
"And just what medical school did YOU go to???

But in this case, Dr. Mendelsohn wrote back, thanked my borther for the letter, admitted the mistake, and promsed a correction in future editions. I really wonder how many other doctors would have done the same. In my view, the man exudes credibility.


Rouser2,

You are probably the most hypocritical and pointlessly venomous person I have ever had the misfortune of coming across. It scarcely behooves you to accuse others of hatred when you yourself, in your opening post, have written the statement: "Hmmm. Another reason to think twice before entering Modern Medicine's Temple of Doom."

You go ahead to accuse doctors of routinely performing surgeries merely for the purpose of "training interns/residents". By saying so, you accuse them of dishonesty, maliciousness and blatant disregard for the patient. If there's anyone who's filled with hatred, it's you.

No I haven't read Mendelsohn's book, but if he possessed even the slightest bit of integrity, he would cringe at the thought of having someone like you as his advocate. On the other hand, if your postings here are an accurate reflection of his writings, then my time would be better invested in reading publications and statistically based scientific research papers, rather than in reading anecdotal evidence.

You might notice that I did not call Mendelsohn a liar. My question was: "So you would rather believe that the entire medical field is running a giant malicious conspiracy than face the possibility that Mendelssohn's "observations" and "personal experiences" might be wrong or fictional?" I am questioning your unquestioning belief of him. I'm sure you do not accept all of his claims as true merely because of his very gracious correction of the mistake pointed out by your brother. It does not matter what kind of person he is - if his claims are supported by evidence, he is right. If they aren't, he isn't. If all the accusations that you've blanketly made against the entire medical profession (as opposed to a handful of unscrupulous practitioners) are taken from his book, then I, for one, am very curious to see the extensive studies that must have revealed to him these gems of insight.

Medicine, like every branch of science, is constantly being tweaked. There is no end to the acquisition of knowledge, and we shall never reach the point when there shall be nothing more to learn. In the course of the journey, we will realise that we had ideas that were mistaken and we will correct them. That is how science works.

No doctor ever looks at medicine as the absolute holy grail. We look at it as a constantly evolving mass of information. We recognise its limitations and its pitfalls. And we use research to continuously refine it.

You, on the other hand, see it through a horribly jaundiced eye. You see only the limitations, not the dramatic successes. When you look at general anaesthesia, you see only the possibility of anaesthesia failure (0.02%). You do not see the decreases in mortality and morbidity that anaesthesia has produced in a dazzling array of medical conditions. When you think of the polio vaccine, I'm sure you see the potential of the vaccine to faultily produce poliomyelitis (1 in 2 million) while conveniently ignoring the preponderance of limping children that inhabited the world before the vaccine was introduced.

Yes, vaccines have the tiny but distinct possibility of causing harm to the recipient. Which is why smallpox vaccination was stopped in the late seventies - because the disease had been eradicated and the benefits of the vaccine were outweighed by the potential side-effects. Protocols and policies are changed on the basis on the current understanding that we possess of the world. That's how science works.

You seem to consider yourself a renegade reformist. Let me assure you that you're not. The medical field is full of reformists - legitimate doctors who use rigorous scientific methods to evaluated the available data, and who suggest changes in medical methodology based on sound statistical justification.

You are merely a vituperative troll. You are the one filled with hatred. And as long as you continue to spew, there will be people willing to counter you with that pesky thing called statistical data.
 

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