Surgery Nightmare -- Yikes!

[Vikram]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Surgery Nightmare -- Yikes!

Originally posted by Vikram [/i]
Yeah, well I'm still working on it. When I get around to the hospitals in Bombay, I'll let you know.

Illogical? Seems very logical to me, if not exactly moral. One doctor remembers just such a situation when he was Senior Pediatric Consultant to the Dept. of Mental Health in the state of Illinois, he cut out a certain kind of heart operation which was being performed on Mongoloid children with heart defects. The alleged purpose of the operation was to improve oxygen supply to the brain. But the real purpose was to improve the state's residency programs in cardiovascular surgery because "nothing beneficial happend to the brains of the mongoloid children -- and the surgeons knew that." Moreover, the surgery had a fairly high mortality rate."Naturally, the university people were very upset when I cut out the operation. They couldn't figure out a better use for the Mongoloid children."

-- Dr.Robert R. Mendelsohn in "Confessions of a Medical Heretic"

Much as I'm delighted that you're "working on it", I regret deeply that my plea for non-anecdotal data fell on deaf ears...

Maybe you should change your name to 'Rouser without a cause'.

 

[Vikram]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Surgery Nightmare -- Yikes!

Rouser,

A few questions:

1) Do you feel that a person who has a perforated appendix or peptic ulcer should not undergo surgery?

2) Do you feel that no attempt should be made to reattach an amputated hand or finger even if it's still viable?

3) Do you feel that a plaster cast should not be used to immobilize a broken bone?

The answers you give to them would help me better understand your stance.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Anyone waking up during surgery shouldn't be allowed to operate in the first place.

I thank you and good night.

 

[Rouser2]

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Wewll it is speculative and an anecdote, but might be true.

Doesn't relate to your point though, you seemed to be suggesting that a proportion of routine surgery is done purely for the entertainment/training value of surgeons ... can you provide some evidence, as in research.

Uh, why sure, I guess so. Why it would be so easy. Just walk up to any hospital administrator and ask him: "Do you perform surgery on people purely for entertainment/training value???

 

[Rouser2]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Surgery Nightmare -- Yikes!

Originally posted by Vikram [/i]
]Rouser,

>>A few questions:

>>1) Do you feel that a person who has a perforated appendix or peptic ulcer should not undergo surgery?

Answer: I dunno.

>>2) Do you feel that no attempt should be made to reattach an amputated hand or finger even if it's still viable?

What does that have to do with the price of bananas?

>>3) Do you feel that a plaster cast should not be used to immobilize a broken bone?

Answer: Depends.


>>The answers you give to them would help me better understand your stance.


You're Welcome.

 

[Dr. Imago]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Surgery Nightmare -- Yikes!

Answer: I dunno.

Finally! Appropriate self-diagnosis! Here's wisdom, and the root of all understanding and discovery. To that end, I suggest you get more knowledge before you continue forward in your myopic arguments.

-TT

 

[Benguin]

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Uh, why sure, I guess so. Why it would be so easy. Just walk up to any hospital administrator and ask him: "Do you perform surgery on people purely for entertainment/training value???

I think I'd be very concerned if the hospital administrator was involved in clinical decisions, let alone surgical procedures. Yikes.

So are you admitting you made this bit up?

 

[Vikram]

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Oh, quite the contrary -- it goes to your own predictiable retreat to ad hominem attack for lack of anything else to contribute.

Now that's rich! You state that doctors constantly perform unnecessary surgeries on patients for the "purpose of training interns/residents". You have only a bunch of unverified anecdotes to offer. No tabulated data. No extensive documentation.

So basically, you have no problem labelling medicine as a "Temple of Doom" while ignoring the dramatic, well-documented decreases in mortality that it has produced.

And you complain about ad hominems...

 

[Vikram]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Surgery Nightmare -- Yikes!

Uh, why sure, I guess so. Why it would be so easy. Just walk up to any hospital administrator and ask him: "Do you perform surgery on people purely for entertainment/training value???

Doesn't this sound remarkably like a UFO fanatic?


[dramatization]

Rouser2: An alien spaceship was discovered at Roswell.

Mentally well-balanced individual: Do you have evidence of this?

Rouser2: Uh, why sure, I guess so. Why it would be so easy. Just walk up to any government official and ask him: "Are you concealing evidence of alien spacecrafts???

Mentally well-balanced individual:


[/dramatization]

 

[Vikram]

Anyone waking up during surgery shouldn't be allowed to operate in the first place.

I thank you and good night.

 

[Rolfe]

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Answer: I dunno.

Well, it tends to get there in the end. I recall that the end of the (astoundingly ignorant) discussion with Rouser about homoeopathy came when he posted "I have no idea", which appeared in someone's sig for a while.

Rouser really does have no idea, just some vague and ill-informed prejudices which he doesn't intend to abandon or re-examine even when they're shredded before his eyes.

By the way, Rouser, the connection of the severed limb question to the price of bananas is that an anaesthetic is required to perform such surgery.

Rolfe.

 

[Vikram]

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Answer: I dunno.

Surgeries performed for peptic ulcer perforation decrease the mortality of the condition by 50%. To put that into other words, out of every hundred people who would have died of a perforated peptic ulcer, fifty survive because of medical intervention.

Now you rightly say, "I dunno.". By saying that you admit to ignorance about the statistics of perforated peptic ulcers.

But then I wonder... how do you label medicine as a "Temple of Doom" when you are ignorant of its statistics?

 

[Chaos]

As someone who would be dead (or at the very least one-armed) with modern medicine, I can only sigh, shake my head, and weep silently at the stuff Rouser2 posted...

I´ve had general anesthesia...let me count...five times in the last few years alone, once for removing all four wisdom teeth, and four times during the treatment of my broken elbow - multi-fragment fracture of the epicondylus radialis humeri (spelling?) for the doctors among you.
For all but two of these, I´ve had the choice of local vs. general anesthesia and chose general because, to my shame, I am an absolute wimp when it comes to pain.

And each time I was gone within 20 seconds after the anesthetics and remained so until at least half an hour after it was finished. I remember nothing of what happened in between.

So my opinion - formed from anecdotal, but personal, experience - is that Rouser2 is talking BS.

Thanks for your attention.

 

[Rouser2]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Surgery Nightmare -- Yikes!

Surgeries performed for peptic ulcer perforation decrease the mortality of the condition by 50%. To put that into other words, out of every hundred people who would have died of a perforated peptic ulcer, fifty survive because of medical intervention.

Now you rightly say, "I dunno.". By saying that you admit to ignorance about the statistics of perforated peptic ulcers.

But then I wonder... how do you label medicine as a "Temple of Doom" when you are ignorant of its statistics?

I tell ya, doc. Your posts leave me in stitches.

 

[Rouser2]

As someone who would be dead (or at the very least one-armed) with modern medicine, I can only sigh, shake my head, and weep silently at the stuff Rouser2 posted...

I´ve had general anesthesia...let me count...five times in the last few years alone, once for removing all four wisdom teeth, and four times during the treatment of my broken elbow - multi-fragment fracture of the epicondylus radialis humeri (spelling?) for the doctors among you.
For all but two of these, I´ve had the choice of local vs. general anesthesia and chose general because, to my shame, I am an absolute wimp when it comes to pain.

And each time I was gone within 20 seconds after the anesthetics and remained so until at least half an hour after it was finished. I remember nothing of what happened in between.

So my opinion - formed from anecdotal, but personal, experience - is that Rouser2 is talking BS.
Thanks for your attention.

Talking BS???? So patients do not sometimes wake up in the middle of a procedure???? And your five experiences under General Anesthesia prove it????

 

[Vikram]

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I tell ya, doc. Your posts leave me in stitches.

I'm not surprised. Apparently laughter comes much easier to you than numbers do.

 

[Chaos]

Talking BS???? So patients do not sometimes wake up in the middle of a procedure???? And your five experiences under General Anesthesia prove it????

My experience shows that a cumulative chance of 0.1% (1 minus 0.9998 to the 5th) of waking up during at least one of these general anesthesias is better than the 100% chance of being awake I´d have with local anesthesia.

I don´t know how anesthesia is done where you live, be here in Germany patients get local anesthesia in addition to general; this dulls/eliminates the pains and makes it possible to greatly reduce the amount of general anesthesia needed.
And in addition to that, three times (when I was in hospital because of the elbow) I got an IDC ("I don´t care") shot - that´s what the nurse called it because once it kicks in, you will still be aware of everything around you but you just don´t give a damn any more.
So, even if I woke up prematurely, I´d still have the local anesthesia plus the IDC. So you can see I find no cause to be terrified of general anesthesia.

 

[Benguin]

My experience shows that a cumulative chance of 0.1% (1 minus 0.9998 to the 5th) of waking up during at least one of these general anesthesias is better than the 100% chance of being awake I´d have with local anesthesia.

I don´t know how anesthesia is done where you live, be here in Germany patients get local anesthesia in addition to general; this dulls/eliminates the pains and makes it possible to greatly reduce the amount of general anesthesia needed.
And in addition to that, three times (when I was in hospital because of the elbow) I got an IDC ("I don´t care") shot - that´s what the nurse called it because once it kicks in, you will still be aware of everything around you but you just don´t give a damn any more.
So, even if I woke up prematurely, I´d still have the local anesthesia plus the IDC. So you can see I find no cause to be terrified of general anesthesia.

Same was true of the last two ops I had done here (hand/wrist joint reconstructions). Apparently letting me stay awake would still have added some sort of complexity to the op. Dunno what though.

I'd have been more than happy to watch.

I think that level numbing is only possible when you're dealing with an extremity like a limb.

Anyone here tried having surgery under hypnosis? Has it been properly researched? I once met a hypnotist who claimed it as a service he offered .... he was about as un-woo as one of those breed could be.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Apparently letting me stay awake would still have added some sort of complexity to the op. Dunno what though.

Worried you might be a malpractice lawyer? They really should check their notes better before treating you.

 

[Chaos]

Same was true of the last two ops I had done here (hand/wrist joint reconstructions). Apparently letting me stay awake would still have added some sort of complexity to the op. Dunno what though.

I'd have been more than happy to watch.

I think that level numbing is only possible when you're dealing with an extremity like a limb.

Anyone here tried having surgery under hypnosis? Has it been properly researched? I once met a hypnotist who claimed it as a service he offered .... he was about as un-woo as one of those breed could be.

For the surgery right after my accident, for taking all the metal parts out of my elbow, and later the wisdom teeth, general anesthesia was purely optional, but I couldn´t stand the thought of having to stay awake through this. I admit it, I´m a wimp.

The others, two attempts at mobilizing the elbow joint and setting a catheder for some kind of local anesthetic that completely numbs and immobilizes the whole arm, general anesthesia was mandatory.