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Supreme Court Rules on Vaccine Case

But if Joe Blow takes his heart medication and it kills him, he can sue the manufacturer. And if that manufacturer is say Merck (which makes both heart medication and the MMR vaccine) a big civil award could cripple Merck anyway.

That being said the number of Joe Blows is going to be much lower than the number of people vaccinates, and so the risk is lower.

Add to that the profits on Joe Blow's heart medication is quite good, wheras the vaccines profitability is very low. Without this protection in place the corporations will just say 'low profits and lots of lawsuits? We'll just stop making it, thanks'. That means the government would have to step in in a big way by mandating vaccine manufacture creating either the same exact situation or a much murkier one.
 
That being said the number of Joe Blows is going to be much lower than the number of people vaccinates, and so the risk is lower.

Add to that the profits on Joe Blow's heart medication is quite good, wheras the vaccines profitability is very low. Without this protection in place the corporations will just say 'low profits and lots of lawsuits? We'll just stop making it, thanks'. That means the government would have to step in in a big way by mandating vaccine manufacture creating either the same exact situation or a much murkier one.

Vaccines aren't the low-profit blip in the big pharma industry. Since the vaccine court was started drug companies have introduced more than 20 new childhood vaccines.

While prescription drug sales are forecast to rise by a third in five years, vaccine sales should double, from $19 billion last year to $39 billion in 2013, according to market research firm Kalorama Information. That's nearly five times the $8 billion in vaccine sales in 2004.

Meanwhile the vaccine court has handed out only $1.8 billion in compensation since it was formed. Sounds like a pretty good deal for big pharma, especially since the government uped the list of recommended vaccines for children to 17 (that's double what it was in 1985).

Linky:
http://www.dispatch.com/live/conten..._revolution.ART_ART_11-30-09_A10_7NFQQE7.html
 
But why doesn't any other medicine or treatment fall under this rule? What about other life-saving drugs such as penicillin or cancer drugs, why don't they get this protection? Big Pharma gets sued all the time but that doesn't stop the introduction of new medications.

You don't know that, and from what we know about economics, it is probably false.

Lawsuits, even justified ones, cost money that could be better spent either doing more development, or hell, fattening the wallets of those who develop drugs, making them more likely to develop more to become even more wealthy.

Let's put it bluntly, so no one misunderstands me: I think society would be better off (read: more lives saved this way than other ways) greatly limiting lawsuits of all types against all kinds of medicine.

This is just part of the larger picture, where lawsuits, regulatory costs (paperwork), regulatory slowdowns (FDA, congressional meddling), taxes on profits, and so on, all contribute to making it harder to earn a profit developing new drugs and treatments (machines that go "ping").

Offset would be the benefits provided by the existence of such things. For the sake of argument, let's say they're Glorious. No matter. This benefit, net, would get swallowed by the cumulative slowdown, year after year, which accrues like interest.

Yey, regulation X saved 10,000 lives over 50 years. Yet if it delays a good heart disease drug even 1 year, it's cost 100,000 lives.


If someone were dying, drowning, and someone were sprinting to go save them, would you put all kinds of cobblestones and oil spills in their way? No. You'd strap a rocket to their back.

Look at it that way. All this **** are major cobblestones everywhere slowing down the sprinting researchers.


Childhood vaccines don't cause autism and very few children die or injured by them, so why does this one product warrent this special treatment?

Look how long it took to beat down the outright fraud, which lead to "common knowledge" that vaccines could be bad. You don't think unscrupulous lawyers wouldn't gladly use it for profiteering? Indeed, that's what lead to this whole problem in the first place with vaccines -- the guy was faking up data to provide for lawsuits. Look at the breast implant fiasco, where Dow went into bankruptcy, even though long-term studies showed no statistical differences between those with and without, w.r.t. the typical "problems everyone knows", such as lupus, auto-immune, chronic fatigue syndrome, and a dozen other things touted loudly by the lawyers.

And, as I've said, it doesn't warrant special treatment for (just) itself -- the same argument applies to any medical development effort.
 
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Vaccines aren't the low-profit blip in the big pharma industry. Since the vaccine court was started drug companies have introduced more than 20 new childhood vaccines.
And how many of those would have been developed if not for the vaccine court?
 
Look how long it took to beat down the outright fraud, which lead to "common knowledge" that vaccines could be bad. You don't think unscrupulous lawyers wouldn't gladly use it for profiteering? Indeed, that's what lead to this whole problem in the first place with vaccines -- the guy was faking up data to provide for lawsuits.

You are soooo wrong if you think any of the fraud has been beaten down. The anti-vaccine folks are not going away just because Wakefield turned out to be a fraud. I come from a pretty adamant anti-vac family (personally, I'm not anti-vaccine, I'm anti-vaccine court) and I can tell you that fear of vaccines did not originate with Wakefield’s paper. People have been anti-vaccine since vaccines were invented. Remember a few years ago when the makers of Gardasil were trying to get law makers to require these shots for girls as a requirement for enrollment in school?

According to a 2010 CDC report, 40 percent of American parents with young children have delayed or refused one or more vaccines for their child.

Trust me, it's not going away anytime soon and the injustice of the vaccine court doesn't help fix public misconceptions. I can sum up the entire anti-vaccine viewpoint in one sentence, "I would rather have my child get measles, mumps or rubella than have them die or have autism.

And, as I've said, it doesn't warrant special treatment for (just) itself -- the same argument applies to any medical development effort.

But this special court doesn't apply to any medical development effort, it ONLY applies to vaccines.
 
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And how many of those would have been developed if not for the vaccine court?

Well considering the fact that it costs between $500 million to $2 billion to develop one drug and the vaccine courts have paid out only $1.8 billion I'm pretty certain most of those new drugs would have been developed anyway.

Now you might argue that if these cases went to civil court a jury might award much more than the vaccine courts did. Maybe, maybe not but an issue of tort reform should not be resolved by a kangeroo court catering to a subset of just one industry.
 
Are you certain vaccines are the *only* product with this sort of protection?

I can't recall any, can you?

IIRC, there are laws that strictly limit what lawsuits you can bring against gun manufacturers. I also just read about a law on the books that prohibits lawsuits against fast food places for causing obesity.

Seriously, this isn't the only product the courts have said you can't sue for a specific type of damage over.

Has the federal government set up a special court for cases involving the gun or fast food industries to hear cases against them, as it's done for childhood vaccines?

I think it's safe to assume that if there was a lot of vaccine tainted with e coli or something and it made many people sick, their suits would be allowed (and wouldn't be settled under the existing structure established for those who get the very rare side effects from good vaccine).

If someone were killed or injured by a vaccine it would be important to know if the cause was a defect in the vaccine or an unpreventable reaction to a perfectly good vaccine, right? Well you don't get that in vaccine court, as shown by the case in the OP. In vaccine court you don't have to prove that a vaccine is defective, you only have to show having had an adverse reaction it.

Yesterday, the U. S. Supreme Court held that the Vaccine Act expressly preempts all state-law products liability suits challenging the design of widely administered childhood vaccines, which the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has already determined to be safe and effective.

So if the FDA says it safe and effective, it is......<cough>...vioxx .
In vaccine court you don't get to find out why you got sick or died.

You can still file a regular civil lawsuit against the person who administered the injection (after all they aren't big pharma).
 
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Well considering the fact that it costs between $500 million to $2 billion to develop one drug and the vaccine courts have paid out only $1.8 billion I'm pretty certain most of those new drugs would have been developed anyway.
Your conclusion does not follow the premise. And the premise is about drugs in general, not vaccines specifically.

Now you might argue that if these cases went to civil court a jury might award much more than the vaccine courts did. Maybe, maybe not but an issue of tort reform should not be resolved by a kangeroo court catering to a subset of just one industry.
What "kangaroo court"?

Are you an anti-vaxer?
 
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What "kangaroo court"?

The vaccine court is a kangaroo court, in my opinion. You can't even question if there was a design flaw in a vaccine. The vaccine court doesn't try to determine why a vaccine caused an adverse effect, just that it did.

If these cases were allowed in a regular civil court the public might be able to discern that adverse reactions to vaccines are almost always caused unforseeable allergic reactions and not bad, killer vaccines. With the vaccine court there is no way to tell the difference.

Are you an anti-vaxer?

No, I addressed that above.
 
The vaccine court is a kangaroo court, in my opinion. You can't even question if there was a design flaw in a vaccine. The vaccine court doesn't try to determine why a vaccine caused an adverse effect, just that it did.
Can any court determine such a thing? Remember how the courts found that silicon breast implants caused all kinds of diseases, despite no scientific study concurring with those conclusions?

If these cases were allowed in a regular civil court the public might be able to discern that adverse reactions to vaccines are almost always caused unforseeable allergic reactions and not bad, killer vaccines. With the vaccine court there is no way to tell the difference.
As the whole silicon breast implant fiasco proved, the courts are a poor method of determining scientific and medical facts.

No, I addressed that above.
Yet you seem determined to sue vaccine manufacturing out of existence.
 
Has the federal government set up a special court for cases involving the gun or fast food industries to hear cases against them, as it's done for childhood vaccines?
Again, I was responding to your specific claim that vaccines are somehow immune (ahem) to liability laws. You said:
Alt+F4 said:
If your dishwasher is defective and injures you, you can sue. If a vaccine makes you sick, you can't. Vaccines are the only product given this protection.

I pointed out 1) other products do indeed enjoy legal limits on liability and 2) vaccines don't enjoy blanket protection from liability. You can sue if you were given a defective vaccine, or it was administered negligently and so on. (The special court is to give out awards to the rare and serious side effects of good vaccine given the correct way.)

The "vaccine court" as you keep calling it is actually a special no-fault compensation program. http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/vaccine-programoffice-special-masters

The law in question, 42 USC Chapter 6a Subchapter XIX, Part 2 says, (in Section 300aa-22):
(1) No vaccine manufacturer shall be liable in a civil action for damages arising from a vaccine-related injury or death associated with the administration of a vaccine after October 1, 1988, if the injury or death resulted from side effects that were unavoidable even though the vaccine was properly prepared and was accompanied by proper directions and warnings.
(2) For purposes of paragraph (1), a vaccine shall be presumed to be accompanied by proper directions and warnings if the vaccine manufacturer shows that it complied in all material respects with all requirements under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act [21 U.S.C. 301 et seq.] and section 262 of this title (including regulations issued under such provisions) applicable to the vaccine and related to vaccine-related injury or death for which the civil action was brought unless the plaintiff shows—
(A) that the manufacturer engaged in the conduct set forth in subparagraph (A) or (B) of section 300aa–23 (d)(2) of this title, or
(B) by clear and convincing evidence that the manufacturer failed to exercise due care notwithstanding its compliance with such Act and section (and regulations issued under such provisions).​

That is, the special compensation fund is only for unavoidable injuries (known rare side effects)--the risk we as a society accept in order to get herd immunity. If the plaintiff can show by clear and convincing evidence that the manufacturer failed to exercise due care, they're not limited to the special compensation fund.
 
The vaccine court is a kangaroo court, in my opinion.

I suggest you read up on the law that establishes the special compensation fund:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/usc_sup_01_42_10_6A_20_XIX_30_sq2.html

It actually establishes a boatload of regulations and reporting vaccine manufacturers have to comply with in order to enjoy this limited protection from liability for vaccines made and delivered in compliance with these practices.

And we pay out these settlements for people who get the rare but serious side effects as part of the cost of establishing herd immunity and avoiding major epidemics of some terribly nasty infectious diseases.

Seems fair to me.
 
Can any court determine such a thing? Remember how the courts found that silicon breast implants caused all kinds of diseases, despite no scientific study concurring with those conclusions?

As the whole silicon breast implant fiasco proved, the courts are a poor method of determining scientific and medical facts.

If courts are a poor method of determining scientific and medical facts than why are juries allowed to hear such cases to begin with?

[/quote]Yet you seem determined to sue vaccine manufacturing out of existence.[/quote]

Merck has agreed to pay out billions to settle over 40,000 Vioxx lawsuits and had worldwide sales of $34 billion last year. Big pharma ain't going no where.
 
If courts are a poor method of determining scientific and medical facts than why are juries allowed to hear such cases to begin with?
Do you think silicon breast implants caused all the diseases the courts determined they caused?

Merck has agreed to pay out billions to settle over 40,000 Vioxx lawsuits and had worldwide sales of $34 billion last year. Big pharma ain't going no where.
There are alternative drugs to Vioxx, do you have an alternative for the polio vaccine?
 
Merck has agreed to pay out billions to settle over 40,000 Vioxx lawsuits and had worldwide sales of $34 billion last year.

And the law this decision is based on requires vaccine manufacturers to fund this no-fault compensation program for people who are injured by vaccines that satisfy very strict guidelines of manufacture.

People who are injured by improperly made vaccines can sue in regular court. The Bruesewitz v. Wyeth decision clearly only protects manufacturers from design defect liability. If, for example, they had tainted a lot with e coli or cyanide or some such, you could certainly sue them.

Again, the idea is that the benefit of herd immunity to all of us far outweighs the very low probability of serious side effects. (NB: Since we're dealing with large numbers, that means we are willing to allow for the certainty of a few cases of serious side effects, and we want to stabilize the vaccine market so that we can count on vaccine being available in reasonable quantities.)
 
I pointed out 1) other products do indeed enjoy legal limits on liability and 2) vaccines don't enjoy blanket protection from liability. You can sue if you were given a defective vaccine, or it was administered negligently and so on. (The special court is to give out awards to the rare and serious side effects of good vaccine given the correct way.)

That's not how it worked out for the family in the OP. The Supreme Court specifically said a vaccine manufacturer can not be sued for a design default in the vaccine. The girl in question started seizing a few hours after receiving the DPT vaccine, from a lot that had 65 adverse reactions including two deaths, 39 emergency room visits, and 6 hospitalizations.

The "vaccine court" as you keep calling it is actually a special no-fault compensation program. http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/vaccine-programoffice-special-masters

I call it a court because evidence is presented and witnesses are heard. There is no jury, the cases are decided by special masters.
That is, the special compensation fund is only for unavoidable injuries (known rare side effects)--the risk we as a society accept in order to get herd immunity. If the plaintiff can show by clear and convincing evidence that the manufacturer failed to exercise due care, they're not limited to the special compensation fund.

The vaccine court rejected the Bruesewitz's claim for compensation but I haven't been able to find out the reasons why. Even the SCOTUS decision was vague about it.

As for herd immunity, it's institutions like the vaccine court that make parents wary about vaccine (much more than Wakefield's stupid paper). In the 25 years that the vaccine court has been in operation nine new childhood vaccines have been added to the recommended list.
 
That's not how it worked out for the family in the OP. The Supreme Court specifically said a vaccine manufacturer can not be sued for a design default in the vaccine.
That exactly what I've been saying. I think perhaps you don't understand the concept of "design defect" liability.

It means that the manufacturers aren't liable for injuries caused by the vaccine (those extremely low probability serious side effects) if the vaccines were made as designed.

If the claim is that there was something defective about that batch, however, we're not talking about a design defect. They are certainly still liable for manufacturing defects.



The vaccine court rejected the Bruesewitz's claim for compensation but I haven't been able to find out the reasons why. Even the SCOTUS decision was vague about it.
It's not at all vague. Have you read the decision? Have you read the law that establishes the no-fault compensation fund and protects manufacturers from design defect liability?

As for herd immunity, it's institutions like the vaccine court that make parents wary about vaccine (much more than Wakefield's stupid paper).
No way that is true. No way, no how. The Wakefield fraud and the likes of Jenny McCarthy are what has made some irrational parents afraid of vaccines. The idea that a parent somehow knows what's best for his or her child despite having no medical training and going against widespread medical consensus is absurd and behind the anti-vaccine movement, not the establishment of a no-fault compensation fund and protection of manufacturers from design defect liability.

In the 25 years that the vaccine court has been in operation nine new childhood vaccines have been added to the recommended list.
That's a good thing. It's proof that the law which establishes the no-fault compensation fund (not a "vaccine court" as you keep calling it) and protects manufacturers from design defect liability is working. It is keeping a stable enough market that R & D of new vaccines isn't discouraged.
 
If the claim is that there was something defective about that batch, however, we're not talking about a design defect. They are certainly still liable for manufacturing defects.

Yes, the Bruesewitz seem to be claiming both, manufacturing and design defect.

It's not at all vague. Have you read the decision? Have you read the law that establishes the no-fault compensation fund and protects manufacturers from design defect liability?

Yes, I read the decision. SCOTUS said their claim for compensation was denied for "various reasons". That's vague.

No way that is true. No way, no how. The Wakefield fraud and the likes of Jenny McCarthy are what has made some irrational parents afraid of vaccines.

No way this true. No way, no how. Fear of vaccines goes way back before McCarthy and Wakefield. The New York Times had a good Op-Ed piece about it recently:

The New York Times said:
That’s because the public’s underlying fear of vaccines goes much deeper than a single paper. Until officials realize that, and learn how to counter such deep-seated concerns, the paranoia — and the public-health risk it poses — will remain.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/21/opinion/21willrich.html

As I mentioned, I'm in an anti-vaccine family and I can tell you from experience that neither Wakefield or McCarthy are taken seriously. Call them crazy and wrong, but unless the concerns of these parents are addressed you can kiss herd immunity goodbye and watch for epidemics of mumps and pertussis in the future.

That's a good thing. It's proof that the law which establishes the no-fault compensation fund (not a "vaccine court" as you keep calling it) and protects manufacturers from design defect liability is working. It is keeping a stable enough market that R & D of new vaccines isn't discouraged.

I see it as big pharma throwing more vaccines at an already suspicious public. The vaccine court only erodes public confidence in childhood vaccines. If assuring that the vaccine supply remains stable is so important then let folks sue in regular court and pay the claims from the compensatation fund.
 
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Do you think silicon breast implants caused all the diseases the courts determined they caused?

Because the court got that case wrong people should be denied their seventh amendment right to sue in a vaccine case? That makes no sense. We haven't dropped the jury system just because juries sometimes get it wrong.

There are alternative drugs to Vioxx, do you have an alternative for the polio vaccine?

No one is suggesting doing away with childhood vaccines, I'm suggesting that they be subject to the same product lialibilty laws as other products.
 

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