Supreme Court: 2nd Amendment NOT about militias

[luchog]

Thanks for pulling up that citation, which I think just strengthens the parallel. Freedom of movement (i.e. driving a motor vehicle) is a right, then, but a potentially dangerous one which we allow government to limit for the sake of public safety. And there's no great outcry over the tyranny of it all.

Nope, still wrong. Freedom of movement is a right. Driving a motorized vehicle on a public road is a privilege which inherently poses a moderate risk of harm to others. If you can't drive a car, you can still walk, ride a bicycle, take the bus, etc. Prohibiting you from driving a car because you haven't passed an arbitrary test does not infringe your freedom of movement, it just means that you have to use a method of transportation that poses a lower risk to others.

Keeping and carrying firearms is a right, there are no alternative forms of exercise of that right that reduce the already low risk of harm to others.

 

[Drudgewire]

Anyone who doesn't obviously has never handled firearms before. Okay, "while cleaning" is probably not entirely accurate; but "while handling" is definitely a situation where accidents occur.

My gun buddy on our board of directors is ex-military, and travels the globe to hunt. He attends gun shows put on by the manufacturers and has his CWP. He keeps them in a locked safe and is fanatical about safety.

A few months ago he went to clean his 1911. In a split second of brain-farting, he assumed it was unloaded and pulled the trigger which you have to do to remove the slide. The gun went off. Thankfully he was well-trained enough with guns that making sure it's never pointed at him is second-nature, but for the next few seconds he said he looked around the different areas of the room as he heard the "ping" of ricochets all around him.

The bullet hole was later found in his pool table... by his wife... after he'd searched the room for hours trying to find it.

So yeah, cleaning accidents are very real. That story always serves to remind me that every second I handle a gun, every rule of safety must always be followed (especially important when I carry my Glock, since there's always one in the chamber and the gun has no external safety).

 

[Ratatosk]

Nope, still wrong. Freedom of movement is a right. Driving a motorized vehicle on a public road is a privilege which inherently poses a moderate risk of harm to others. If you can't drive a car, you can still walk, ride a bicycle, take the bus, etc. Prohibiting you from driving a car because you haven't passed an arbitrary test does not infringe your freedom of movement, it just means that you have to use a method of transportation that poses a lower risk to others.

Keeping and carrying firearms is a right, there are no alternative forms of exercise of that right that reduce the already low risk of harm to others.

I do understand this, and I didn't mean to suggest there was a legal equivalency between the two. My post that led to this back-and-forth was:

"If I could throw out a quick not-at-all formal survey:

If you consider yourself pro-gun rights, would you feel that a training program, similar to driver's licensing, required before a person would be allowed to purchase any firearm, would be unconstitutional?

ETA: Maybe I'll leave constitutionality to the Supreme court and just ask: would you consider it a good idea?"

Where constitutionality is concerned, I understand that the two are not equivalent, but I'm still interested in the "would you consider it a good idea" part.

I also agree that calling keeping and bearing arms a collective rather than an individual right doesn't bear up to scrutiny. However, as regards the question of whether mandatory training courses would be unconstitutional...

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cach..."keep+and+bear+arms"&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us

The author is a certified NRA Instructor on Basic Pistol and Personal Protection, and in this paper he says,

"Here, as can be clearly seen, a well-regulated militia is composed of ordinary citizens who are trained to arms." [bolding mine] (p.8)

and he quotes, with seeming approval, another author's statement that
"The well-regulated clause of the second amendment suggests that the citizen soldier must retain not only the right to keep and bear arms, but must be proficient in their use. (ThatEvery Man Be Armed, 78)" [again, bolding mine] (p.8)

This, to me, suggests that a mandatory training course for any would-be firearm owner would be both constitutional and reasonable. Note: this last part is my opinion, and I'm not attributing it to anyone else but me. Just would like to hear what other people think.

 

[Ratatosk]

I don't think it would either be unconstitutional or a bad idea.

I don't necessarily think that a full proficiency test should be required; but some sort of basic firearm safety certification exam, similar to the written portion of the driver licensing test, would be a very good idea.

My state requires firearm safety training for anyone under 18 who is applying for a hunting license, and I don't see why it shouldn't be extended to anyone seeking to own a firearm. Even if not for all firearm ownership, then at least as part of the requiremnt for a CWP, maybe with exemptions for those who have prior law-enforcement or military training.

Luchog, I didn't read this response before I posted my (long) post above. So you answered my question before I asked it.

 

[rwguinn]

My gun buddy on our board of directors is ex-military, and travels the globe to hunt. He attends gun shows put on by the manufacturers and has his CWP. He keeps them in a locked safe and is fanatical about safety.

A few months ago he went to clean his 1911. In a split second of brain-farting, he assumed it was unloaded and pulled the trigger which you have to do to remove the slide. The gun went off. Thankfully he was well-trained enough with guns that making sure it's never pointed at him is second-nature, but for the next few seconds he said he looked around the different areas of the room as he heard the "ping" of ricochets all around him.

The bullet hole was later found in his pool table... by his wife... after he'd searched the room for hours trying to find it.

So yeah, cleaning accidents are very real. That story always serves to remind me that every second I handle a gun, every rule of safety must always be followed (especially important when I carry my Glock, since there's always one in the chamber and the gun has no external safety).

As I said--neglegence.
When picking up a firearm, the first thing to do is assure yourself it is unloaded. To pull the trigger first is neglegent. "Assume that the damn thing can load itself when you aren't looking"
You cannot clean it with the breech obstructed (Muzzle loaders excepted)
And FYI- I was a certified instructor in Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, and self protection, as well as a Hunter Ed Instructor--for years.