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Suppose reincarnation is a real thing. Now what?

Dr.Sid said:
Define 'materialistic soul' ..
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Well it is going to be hard.

I don’t have the language to do it, but I cannot figure out how one could scientifically prove reincarnation.

If science seriously had overwhelming evidence for reincarnation, there would have to be something measurable that is being reincarnated. If it can be measured with empirical scientific methods, then it is natural (I am assuming by Bubba’s description of “science with overwhelming evidence” we are talking about natural, empirical evidence, and not some kind of mystical Moorcock “Eternal Champion”, Dr, Stranglove evidence).

If it is a natural measurable phenomenon it is material (by the common definition of material at least). So we have a soul of some kind that is measurable by natural means, a materialistic soul.

That is a far more interesting and compelling idea in my imagination that just the notion of reincarnation by itself. If science can measure souls, maybe it has the technology to find fairies, and unicorns.
 
I long ago realized that without some artificial continuity of memory or karma or whatever between or outside of incarnations (for which no known mechanism exists and there is no reliable evidence for), then there is no difference between dying and being reincarnated as someone else, and dying and not being reincarnated and someone else being born.

And the equivalence (being an equivalence) goes both ways: there's no difference between dying and someone else being born, and dying and being reincarnated.

And since people are born all the time whether I'm dying or not, that's the same as me being reincarnated all the time.

So, only my remembered mental narrative distinguishes me from you (or anyone); outside of that individuality is illusory, and the karma we pass to our reincarnated selves is just how we've affected the world.

A fair number of mystics seem to come to the exact same conclusions, from the exact opposite direction.
 
Bubba said:
Screw that. (for the moment) (no offense Dr Sid.)





Right.

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Hi Bubba,

I don't think that this conversation can be held without a discussion of the immortal soul.

Today I would say that people are chemistry. Our behavior is ruled by our emotions far more than our intellect, and our emotions are mostly chemistry. Hate, lust, fear, love, awe, joy, all great emotions are self produced drugs, the involuntary chemistry of our bodies.

However if there is evidence for this immortal maybe we will find that our behavior goes deeper than chemistry. (shrug)

If I am reincarnated and remember my past lives, and my behavior is still just dictated by the pounding of my heart, the surge of endorphins that lead me to anger or love, then I will likely be the same, regardless or my memories. Angry people will be likely to focus on the anger from may lives, kind people will likely focus on the kindness shown to them, and the kindness that they have shown.

But if we have some tempering agent in our soul that has just come into the fore-front, then maybe we will have the strength reign in our emotions, and become more rational.

So I think for us to have this discussion, we need to find more about this soul that is being reincarnated.

Otherwise we are the same set of chemistry, balanced by the accidents of our histories.
 
Bubba said:

"...a thought experiment as the OP!"

Indeed.

Interesting inadvertent disclosure there gentlemen. IMO a thought experiment as an OP is fine fertile ground. So far in this thread, participation indicates some appreciation of the thought experiment OP... some books have been referenced...and yet those two quotes seem to find it remarkable/strange/ unusual or whatever ie 'Well it is Bubba".

That likely indicates disparate minds' views. I notice this in other (thought experiment) threads as well.

Often I will approach a topic as a thought experiment rather than choose a side. In the recent thread on so called False Flag incidents I said "hypothetically" how they might or might not function. Yet some members seemed to ignore "hypothetically" and continue responding as if I were taking a position and making an argument.

Further, I have tried opening other threads along lines of 'thought experiment', and seen limited success. However this reincarnation thread, and the recent UFO related thread, "To disclose or not disclose" have generated more interest.

Regarding success rate factors, in addition to topic quality, a common factor is that speculation is required. I suppose another factor is the way disparate minds see things. I'm not patting myself on the back, nor am I suggesting some others are less open minded.

I just find it interesting how some minds enjoy speculating, while others find a thought experiment to be remarkable/strange or whatever that inspires such remarks, ridicule etc. Some wont touch it other than sneeringly or with a drive-by grenade toss.
I imagine that response to this post may provide more examples of a range of views. That will be interesting and fun.

Is there already a thread about this, yet ?
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Hilited: Unfair characterization. It's not an either/or proposition. Some of us sneer AND toss grenades.
 
I think it would be awful. Enough bad stuff happens to you in one life, nevermind remembering all of the gory details of every life you ever had. I think psychiatry services would be in hot demand.That said, I do have a couple of memories from what I think might be past lives.

In one I'm a small boy in some ancient time and I'm sitting in a kind of an open alcove court yard being taught by the ugliest man I've seen in awhile. The teacher is red headed, bald on top, and he has all of these moles you could see on his bald spot. I find them distracting when he turns around to speak to the other side of the group. He also has an advanced case of Rosacea so his nose is extremely large. I found a picture of a bust of a man that looked just like this teacher in my memory and it was supposedly Socrates. I'm not a happy child in this memory because I don't want to get an education in order to grow up and be a senator to follow in my father's footsteps. I feel a lot of pressure to live up to my father's expectations. I want to be a soldier instead.

My other memory is of being a farmer. I am in town anxiously waiting to hear President Lincoln give a speech. When the speech starts I see him talking but all I can hear is mumbling because Lincoln doesn't project very well. I'm getting frustrated because it means I'll have to buy a newspaper to read the speech the next day. In this memory Lincoln is a lot more gaunt and pale than he looks in pictures or his statue. He doesn't look healthy, however, I'm feeling optimistic in this memory for the future of the country. After the speech is over I walk to a building, a store I think, to buy a paper ahead of time and as I walk up a couple of steps to the door I'm looking down at the top of my shoe and it is covered with dust. This is a happy life.

There is one other memory, but it's very fleeting. I didn't get any impression of whether I was happy/sad but I'm on this old fashioned clipper type of ship. I'm coming up from below deck with a platter of food and a jug for the captain. As I get on deck there is this absolutely beautiful sunset over a calm sea and that's the extent of it, I'm just admiring the sunset as I'm doing a chore.
 
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Bubba said:
If you knew your past experience, wouldn't all of it be of value just as your current life is a learning curve?

Wouldnt we then be building on all of the past experiences cumulatively ?
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Not if this rule of yours is in play:

Bubba said:
You never know how long until next time around.
You do know it can be from 1 year to 100 year intervals.
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If Joan of Arc were only reincarnated today, what use are her experiences to a modern life? She'd have to relearn everything, much like every person already does. At best she'd be a living history book.

Also, when do their memories kick in? Is a reincarnated person aware of their past life from the moment of their birth (or conception)? As an infant, would they be able speak like an adult, given they have potentially many lives worth of vocabulary learned, or do they have to go through all that time-wasting development over and over and over again...?
 
IMO the point of reincarnation would be to experience every single nuance of life, be it good or bad. No one learns anything without a challenge of some sort and no one life is completely one or the other extreme.

In order to buy into reincarnation you would have to believe that some form of consciousness survives. Since memories are laid down in the neural network of the brain then it wouldn't be possible to recall those memories once the person is dead unless there is some kind of mechanism outside of the physical body for recall.

If a person has a memory of a past life then that would also mean that the person must be able to access this mechanism for recall that lies outside of the brain. That's a whole lot of WHAT IF. Not only would you have to factor in the concept of reincarnation as we think of it I.E. as sequential lives that are lived but also entertain the notion of lives lived according to the multiverse where every potential decision in one single life is realized. To my knowledge no one has ever stated that they remember anything about those alternate lives so one has to wonder why if we suppose reincarnation is a real thing.

If time doesn't actually exist the way we perceive it asking the "Now What?" question really doesn't make any sense because the "Now" would be eternal. Everything would be happening all at once.
 
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If people started remembering past lives it wouldn't be long before they started demanding property rights laws be changed so they could get their hands on all their stuff from past lives. Or at least start writing wills leaving part of their estate to their future self. And of course the courts would fill up with bogus claimants.
 
Ever had a look at how the authenticity of the Deli Lama is proven? Makes interesting reading. Here is one mothers account of a dream she had prior to giving birth to one candidate:

Mother's Premonition: She reported in her memoirs that a month before his birth one of her dreams was of two green snow lions flying around a brilliant blue dragon. All three beings smiled at her and greeted her in traditional Tibetan style. She thought her son might become a high Lama. Later, she was told the dragon was Dhondup and the others were showing him the way to his rebirth.
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Well who could argue with that?
 
xterra said:
Why is it that people who believe in reincarnation thinks they were once Cleopatra or Joan of Arc or Napoleon?

How come no one was the barber, or the street sweeper, or the person who cleaned latrines?
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For the same reason that nationalists believe that their nation is the greatest (it's never someone else's), that racists believe it is their race which is the superior one (it's never another one), etc. People like to divide humankind in groups, then assign relative value to those groups, and make sure the result of their mental exercise is that they themselves are in the most-valued group. Cleopatra is in an entirely different group of people than the street sweeper - for people who think in these terms - so if they get to imagine themselves as being member of some group they will take the one with Cleopatra in it.
 
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caveman1917 said:
For the same reason that nationalists believe that their nation is the greatest (it's never someone else's), that racists believe it is their race which is the superior one (it's never another one)
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Usually true, but not always. "The Bell Curve" by Richard J. Herrnstein and Charles Murray assigns intelligence values to different races, and puts Asians on top. Herrnstein and Murray are white, and place their own race in second place.
 
Hungry81 said:
It would make enforcing consecutive life sentences interesting.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
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I can imagine the scene at the maternity wards.

Congratulations you have a healthy baby girl. Officer, here's the evil serial killer, she still has 3 life sentences to go!
 
Lothian said:
This is a very important question but I am too busy at the moment to give it the attention it deserves. Do you mind if I answer it my next life?
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Well I've just wrote to everyone I owe money to and told them I will make full payment and settlement with interest next lifetime when I am reincarnated as Donald Trump Jr the 2nd.
 
Darat said:
Well I've just wrote to everyone I owe money to and told them I will make full payment and settlement with interest next lifetime when I am reincarnated as Donald Trump Jr the 2nd.
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You must have done some nasty **** in this life for that to be your next.
 
Bubba said:
Suppose science with overwhelming evidence determined for certain that you reincarnate after death, would anything change ?

Set aside the karma angle for now. Nothing religious involved. It is simply nature.

Lets just say you know for sure that you will reincarnate. Would you change? Would this affect the world? If so how? If not, why not?

What comes to mind?
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Being sentenced to multiple consecutive live terms would take on a whole new meaning.
 
Bubba said:
If you knew your past experience, wouldn't all of it be of value just as your current life is a learning curve?

Wouldnt we then be building on all of the past experiences cumulatively ? Hopefully in a good way, but....who knows...maybe thats a reason to add the karma thing to it.
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Have you seen the move "The Man from Earth?"



Ultimately I think that movie touches on most the same issues that would arise from universally recognized reincarnation, at least on a personal level.

On a social level, I think we'd see a general societal collapse without a karmic process directing your next incarnation. We'd see self-destructive "I'm coming back anyway" behavior left and right. We'd see the wealthiest trying to get laws passed providing a mechanism to transfer their wealth and power to their next incarnation. All those obsessive stalkers would come back and either spend their lives tracking down their victim(s) from previous lives, or convincing themselves they HAVE found the reincarnation of previous victims and harassing them. If you think life is cheap NOW, wait until there's proof the dead come back. We'd also see the powerful of future generations seeking out revenge for wrongs inflicted on past incarnations.

Without karma playing a role, without consequences that carry over into the next life, then reincarnation would allow all the worst aspects of humanity to run rampant.

It wouldn't be all bad however. We might get better at caring about the condition of the Earth, knowing we'd be living on it until the planet is swallowed by an expanding sun as opposed for a single lifetime. If reincarnation routinely crossed racial lines then racism itself would be softened. It's hard for a white man in the south to hate blacks if he remembers a past life as a black slave, or holding a freedom rider as they died in his arms during a riot in the 1960's. Sexism too would be altered by people remembering past lives as other genders.
 
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