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Superconductivity at room temperature??

Yes, you did.
You are a blatant liar; since I have never in my life said that the equations of quantum mechanics are BS (although I suspect that Dirac's equation is) but only attacked the Copenhagen probability interpretation; which is unadulterated BS just as Einstein has suspected all along!
You have made an extremely simple, extremely basic mistake.
No it is you who have all along made an extremely simple and extremely basic mistake.
It's become quite clear to me that no matter what we say we will not be able convince you of that. So, I'm afraid all the comments on the first page of this thread were spot-on.
It is just the other way around. You will never admit that you are the one who consistently violated energy conservation.

How's that diagram of the barrier coming, Johan?
I have just posted it but it did not come out exactly as a drew it. Nonetheless anybody who knows a smattering of physics should be able to follow what I tried to convey.
 
I have never disputed that and have pointed out over and over and over again that this shift will require the radiation qV when an orbital jumps over the barrier by borrowing and returning energy; which is allowed by quantum mechanics. This will happen even when the electron is not accelerated during the jump.

That would be a violation of conservation of energy. The only way the electron can radiate anything at all is if it is accelerated during the jump. If both sides of the barrier are at the same height, the electron will not and cannot radiate (as in the DC Josephson effect).

My high school text books taught me in no uncertain terms that when you start off with an energy E(0) and accelerate through a potential energy V(p) you energy at the end will be E(0) +V(p). You maintain that it must still be E(0). I think you are in need to reread your elementary physics books!

Your high school texts did not teach you that - you made that mistake all by yourself. When you start with energy E(0) and move through a region with a potential energy gradient, you end with exactly the same energy you started with. That's called conservation of energy. The only effect of the acceleration is that potential energy is exchanged for an exactly equal amount of kinetic energy.

How many times do you need that explained to you, Johan?

I'll try to reproduce your diagram here:

Code:
[FONT="Courier New"]
                                   ....................
                                   |\
                                   |  \
                                   |    \         qV
                                   |      \
                                   |....... \..........        
                                   |         |
                                   |         |
                                   |         | 
                               ____|.........|..........          
                                              |
                                              |   qV
                                              |                                                                                                                          
                                              |......................
[/FONT]

Your diagram (like mine) shows that an electron at rest on the right side of the barrier has an energy that's less than an electron at rest on the left side by qV. Therefore, by conservation of energy, if the initial and final states are an electron at rest on the left and right sides of the barrier, exactly qV of energy must have been radiated away.

The shape of the barrier is totally irrelevant, as I proved in one of the posts you ignored (after you requested the proof).
 
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You are a blatant liar; since I have never in my life said that the equations of quantum mechanics are BS (although I suspect that Dirac's equation is) but only attacked the Copenhagen probability interpretation; which is unadulterated BS just as Einstein has suspected all along!

You've proven conclusively in this thread that you are incapable of understanding even the simplest and most basic equations in physics, so you are obviously not qualified to make any such judgements.
 
That would be a violation of conservation of energy. The only way the electron can radiate anything at all is if it is accelerated during the jump. If both sides of the barrier are at the same height, the electron will not and cannot radiate (as in the DC Josephson effect).
You do not want to understand quantum mechanics. As I have pointed out ad infinitum, an electron wave can borrow an energy (delta)EB and the kinetic energy to move over a barrier with energy height (delta)EB and thus arrive on the other side with the same energy that it started with. If the energy level at which the jumped "electron" has to end up at, is qV lower than from which it started of, it will have to radiate this energy even if it has not been accelerated while moving over the barrier.
Let us assume there is a phase barrier across which the energy of the localized states change by (delta)EPB so that there is no electric field between the electron with the higher energy and the electron with the lower energy. When the higher electron jumps across to the next orbital having a lower energy, it will in addition have to radiate away energy (delta)EPB, even though it did not encounter an electric field while it jumped.
In the case of an electric-field over a Josephson junction one has that (delta)EPB=qV. So that this is the energy that the electron must radiate away even if it is not accelerated. But since it is also accelerated it gains extra energy qV which it must also radiate away. Thus 2qV.
Your high school texts did not teach you that - you made that mistake all by yourself. When you start with energy E(0) and move through a region with a potential energy gradient, you end with exactly the same energy you started with. That's called conservation of energy. The only effect of the acceleration is that potential energy is exchanged for an exactly equal amount of kinetic energy.

How many times do you need that explained to you, Johan?

I'll try to reproduce your diagram here:

Code:
[FONT="Courier New"]
                                   ....................
                                   |\
                                   |  \
                                   |    \         qV
                                   |      \
                                   |....... \..........        
                                   |         |
                                   |         |
                                   |         | 
                               ____|.........|..........          
                                              |
                                              |   qV
                                              |                                                                                                                          
                                              |......................
[/FONT]

Your diagram (like mine) shows that an electron at rest on the right side of the barrier has an energy that's less than an electron at rest on the left side by qV. Therefore, by conservation of energy, if the initial and final states are an electron at rest on the left and right sides of the barrier, exactly qV of energy must have been radiated away.

The shape of the barrier is totally irrelevant, as I proved in one of the posts you ignored (after you requested the proof).[/QUOTE]
 
You are a blatant liar; since I have never in my life said that the equations of quantum mechanics are BS

Really? Because this looks a lot like exactly such a claim:

The postulate that an electron can move "through" an energy barrier, and thus "tunnel" through the barrier is false. It also violates Pauli's exclusion principle since the barrier also consists of matter waves.

First off, tunneling is a necessary result of the Schrodinger equation. Note that I said the Schrodinger equation, and not the Copenhagen interpretation. It's an interpretation-free aspect of quantum mechanics. Either you accept tunneling, or you throw out the Schrodinger equation. There are no other logically consistent choices. Yet you claim to accept the Schrodinger equation, but want to discard a necessary result of it. Sorry, that won't work.

Oh, and as for Pauli exclusion, the tunneling particle is rather obviously in a different quantum state from the particles which make up the barrier, so Pauli exclusion doesn't prohibit such a state.

Consider a "quantum" tennis ball approaching a wall. According to the accepted crackpot interpretation, the tennis ball moves through the wall "having negative energy" and proceeds.

That is an inaccurate description of quantum tunneling. Total energy never changes during a tunneling event. Negative potential energy is acceptable since the zero is set arbitrarily. It's only the kinetic energy which we can't let go negative. And that never does. If you calculate the kinetic energy, it remains positive at all times. What does NOT happen is a borrowing of energy. You will not find that anywhere in the Schrodinger equation.

According to my realistic interpretation

Your interpretation is not realistic. You are borrowing energy from nowhere. What's realistic about that?

Not that it even matters. These details are all irrelevant to total energy conservation. Energy must be conserved regardless of the details. You are not conserving energy.
 
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You do not want to understand quantum mechanics. As I have pointed out ad infinitum, an electron wave can borrow an energy (delta)EB and the kinetic energy to move over a barrier with energy height (delta)EB and thus arrive on the other side with the same energy that it started with. If the energy level at which the jumped "electron" has to end up at, is qV lower than from which it started of, it will have to radiate this energy even if it has not been accelerated while moving over the barrier.

No. The correct statement in that case is that either the electron will end up accelerated, or it will radiate away the energy that would otherwise have accelerated it. In any case, the maximum amount of energy it can radiate is qV.

Let us assume there is a phase barrier across which the energy of the localized states change by (delta)EPB so that there is no electric field between the electron with the higher energy and the electron with the lower energy. When the higher electron jumps across to the next orbital having a lower energy, it will in addition have to radiate away energy (delta)EPB, even though it did not encounter an electric field while it jumped.

If such a gap exists independently of the potential jump qV, then why don't electrons that tunnel through Josephson junctions with V=0 ever radiate, Johan?

In the case of an electric-field over a Josephson junction one has that (delta)EPB=qV. So that this is the energy that the electron must radiate away even if it is not accelerated. But since it is also accelerated it gains extra energy qV which it must also radiate away. Thus 2qV.

Then your diagram is wrong. Your diagram shows that an electron at rest to the left of the barrier has an energy that's qV greater than an electron at rest to the right. If there is an electric field that accelerates charges to qV of energy as they cross the barrier, then (by definition) there is an electric potential jump of V across the barrier. If there is also a "phase barrier" that contributes an additional qV, the diagram should show that the total potential energy of an electron to the left is 2qV relative to one on the right.

But that's not what it shows, so your "theory" isn't even internally self-consistent. It's simply nonsense.
 
As someone who isn't a physicist and doesn't know the maths, can I ask - if the electron "borrows" extra energy to overcome the barrier, from where is that energy borrowed?

As Sol asked before, if the electron starts at one state, gains some energy, radiates some energy and ends up qV lower, does it matter what state it passes through in between as the total energy budget still balances?
 
To put that question in the simplest possible mathematical terms:

(1) Einitial=Efinal (conservation of energy)

(2) Einitial = Eq,initial (energy of the charge q before tunneling)

(3) Efinal = Eq,final + Ephoton (energy of the charge after tunneling plus energy of the emitted photon)

(4) Ephoton = Eq,initial - Eq,final (combine (2) and (3) using (1))

(5) If Ephoton = 2qV, then according to (4), Eq,initial - Eq,final=2qV

(6) But according to Johan's diagram (and everyone else's), Eq,initial - Eq,final=qV.

So Johan - what are Eq,initial and Eq,final? What's the correct diagram?
 
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If such a gap exists independently of the potential jump qV, then why don't electrons that tunnel through Josephson junctions with V=0 ever radiate, Johan?

Question?

Here you are talking about an energy gap due to the potential difference as well as independent of the potential difference.

Reading Marouchkine, it is stated that unconventional super conductors have 2 energy gaps. (Delta)p and (Delta)q.

They also talk of pseudo gaps, coherence gaps and so on. This as far as I understand is the mainstream train of thought. I may be wrong, in that Marouchkine is a crackpot...:rolleyes:

So, are these energy gaps not independent of potential difference?
 
That would be a violation of conservation of energy. The only way the electron can radiate anything at all is if it is accelerated during the jump. If both sides of the barrier are at the same height, the electron will not and cannot radiate (as in the DC Josephson effect).
I have just typed this answer and then lost it when posting it:(. So here we go again: Let us first see if we can agree on quantum mechanics. Do you agree that a localized orbital can through a quantum fluctuation attain an increase in energy which allows it to jump a barrier and arrive at the other side with the same energy. If not, and you think that an electron can only tunnel through a barrier, then we are wasting each other's time since then, according to my opinion you are living in Alice's Wonderland. I will now go ahead by assuming that you agree that such a scaling or "barrier-jumping" as I propose here is what is actually happening during a "tunneling event".

We seem to agree that when a SC charge-carrier moves from one side to the other under the conditions where the initial energy of the charge-carrier is the same as the energy of the charge carrier it has to replace on the other side, there will be no EM-radiation at all. Now consider an interface between two superconductors where the binding energy of the localized charge carriers are lower in one than in the other. A charge-carrier jumping from the the one SC into the other, by borrowing and returning energy, will then end up at a higher energy than the energy of the charge-carrier it has to replace. In order to replace this charge carrier it will have to radiate away this energy even though it experienced no electric-field while it jumped. It is only accelerated by the potential energy difference between its starting energy and the final energy it has to be at, after it has reached the other side.

Now in the case of a Josephson junction with a voltage V across it, the latter energy difference is still responsible for radiating the offset qV between the two energy levels after the electron has jumped across; even if the electron, during its jump, ignored the electric field within the junction. But it cannot ignore this field, so it is in addition accelerated. Thus instead of just ending up at a potential energy qV above its final energy which must be radiated away by acceleration, it also has kinetic energy qV which must also be emitted as EM radiation.

our high school texts did not teach you that - you made that mistake all by yourself. When you start with energy E(0) and move through a region with a potential energy gradient, you end with exactly the same energy you started with. That's called conservation of energy. The only effect of the acceleration is that potential energy is exchanged for an exactly equal amount of kinetic energy.
I agree, in the heat of the moment I wrote nonsense by not distinguishing for the starting energy between energy that can be dissipated and energy that must first be converted into kinetic energy before it can be dissipated. Sorry about that.

But it does not change my logic on this thread by a single iota! The fact is that since the charge carrier borrows the energy to reach the other side it will end up at energy qV above the energy level it has to end up at, after returning the borrowed energy. If however, during this jump it is in addition accelerated during the jump it will still have the potential energy qV it must radiate away by being accelerated PLUS in addition the kinetic energy that it gained during the jump owing to the presence of the electric field within the barrier.

I'll try to reproduce your diagram here:

Code:
[FONT="Courier New"]
                                   ....................
                                   |\
                                   |  \
                                   |    \         qV
                                   |      \
                                   |....... \..........        
                                   |         |
                                   |         |
                                   |         | 
                               ____|.........|..........          
                                              |
                                              |   qV
                                              |                                                                                                                          
                                              |......................
[/FONT]
Thanks you did a sterling job

Your diagram (like mine) shows that an electron at rest on the right side of the barrier has an energy that's less than an electron at rest on the left side by qV.
correct I never had any argument with this.
Therefore, by conservation of energy, if the initial and final states are an electron at rest on the left and right sides of the barrier, exactly qV of energy must have been radiated away.
Only if the movement of the electron across the barrier does not require an extra increase in energy.
The shape of the barrier is totally irrelevant, as I proved in one of the posts you ignored (after you requested the proof).
As far as the borrowed energy is concerned the shape of the barrier is irrelevant since it allows to electron to move across the barrier and ends up at an energy qV above the energy it must end up at after the borrowed energy is returned. From where it is accelerated to release energy qV: However the shape is important as to whether the jumping electron is accelerated or not during the jump. If the junction could be flat topped, only the energy qV would need to be dissipated; but in this case it is not flat topped, so that during the jump the electron gains kinetic energy qV in addition to the energy qV it has to dissipate by further acceleration after it has reached the other side.
 
As someone who isn't a physicist and doesn't know the maths, can I ask - if the electron "borrows" extra energy to overcome the barrier, from where is that energy borrowed?

Good question.

The answer is actually easy enough to understand without any math: the electron doesn't borrow energy. You could still conserve energy even if it did, but you'd have to actually give that energy back.

As Sol asked before, if the electron starts at one state, gains some energy, radiates some energy and ends up qV lower, does it matter what state it passes through in between as the total energy budget still balances?

Nope.
 
As someone who isn't a physicist and doesn't know the maths, can I ask - if the electron "borrows" extra energy to overcome the barrier, from where is that energy borrowed?
Very valid question. According to quantum electrodynamics this comes from the "vacuum" . Unfortunately the "vacuum energy" they calculate is infinitely large so they have to fudge their mathematics by a process called renormalization. This is unnecessary since a Schroedinger wave, owing to its complex wave function, has its kinetic energy stored outside our three-dimensional space.
As Sol asked before, if the electron starts at one state, gains some energy, radiates some energy and ends up qV lower, does it matter what state it passes through in between as the total energy budget still balances?
For normal conductors yes: But in the case of superconductors where the energy to move from one position to another is extracted outside our three-dimensional space and then returned, the rules of the game change.
 
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Very valid question. According to quantum electrodynamics this comes from the "vacuum" . Unfortunately the "vacuum energy" they calculate is infinitely large so they have to fudge their mathematics by a process called renormalization. This is unnecessary since a Schroedinger wave, owing to its complex wave function, has its kinetic energy stored outside our three-dimensional space.

This makes absolutely no sense. The wave function amplitude is stored in three-dimensional space: each point in space has an amplitude, and it's the variations in amplitude with respect to position that tell you about the kinetic energy. Whether the amplitude is complex or not is irrelevant. Even purely real wave functions can have kinetic energy.

For normal conductors yes: But in the case of superconductors where the energy to move from one position to another is extracted outside our three-dimensional space and then returned, the rules of the game change.

The only relevant rule change would be whether or not energy conservation is still enforced.
 
First off, tunneling is a necessary result of the Schrodinger equation. Note that I said the Schrodinger equation, and not the Copenhagen interpretation. It's an interpretation-free aspect of quantum mechanics.
This is not true: Tunneling as interpreted as an electron moving through an energy barrier instead of jumping OVER a barrier is totally based on the probability interpretation of the intensity distribution of a Schroedinger wave.
It's an interpretation-free aspect of quantum mechanics. Either you accept tunneling, or you throw out the Schrodinger equation.
I accept that the process of borrowing energy and jumping over a barrier is consistent with the Schroedinger equation sans the illogical probability interpretation. So why do I have to "throw out" the Schroedinger equation?
Oh, and as for Pauli exclusion, the tunneling particle is rather obviously in a different quantum state from the particles which make up the barrier, so Pauli exclusion doesn't prohibit such a state.
And there is enough space for such a different quantum state?
That is an inaccurate description of quantum tunneling. Total energy never changes during a tunneling event. Negative potential energy is acceptable since the zero is set arbitrarily.
This has been the biggest mistake in quantum mechanics EVER. The energy scale of an electron wave is pinned by its rest mass energy which one cannot choose arbitrarily.
If you calculate the kinetic energy, it remains positive at all times. What does NOT happen is a borrowing of energy. You will not find that anywhere in the Schrodinger equation.
Thus you say that an electron's Schroedinger wave has kinetic energy even when the wave's total energy is less than an electron's rest mass energy. So Einstein is wrong to have derived that an electron can only have kinetic energy when its energy is more than its rest mass energy:boggled:
Your interpretation is not realistic. You are borrowing energy from nowhere. What's realistic about that?
So where do the virtual photons in QED come from, and the virtual phonons in BCS? In these cases energy is borrowed from nowhere not in my case.
Not that it even matters. These details are all irrelevant to total energy conservation. Energy must be conserved regardless of the details. You are not conserving energy.
and in my model it is conserved because the borrowed energy is returned after it has done the work to move the charge-carrier to the next position. This is hwy a super-current around a ring can go on indefinitely since charge-carrier obtains energy from an outside source which performs the work to move it whence it is returned. If this does not happen the second law of thermodynamics would not have allowed such a persistent current to flow
 
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From where it is accelerated to release energy qV: However the shape is important as to whether the jumping electron is accelerated or not during the jump. If the junction could be flat topped, only the energy qV would need to be dissipated; but in this case it is not flat topped, so that during the jump the electron gains kinetic energy qV in addition to the energy qV it has to dissipate by further acceleration after it has reached the other side.

Nope. In your diagram, that ramp is still in the virtual part of the barrier. It has to "borrow" 2qV to get to the peak of the barrier. It "gets back" this borrowed 2qV in two steps, first a ramp (-1qV) and then half of the step (-1qV). Then it's back to zero kinetic energy. And there's only -qV to go to get from there to ground.
 
If the junction could be flat topped, only the energy qV would need to be dissipated

Johan, do you agree with the statement that V = -integral E.dx?

The difference between a sharp potential drop and a sloped potential drop is merely that the sharp drop has V = (large E).(small x), and the gradual slope has a (small E).(large x)?
 
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sol invictus said:
Your diagram (like mine) shows that an electron at rest on the right side of the barrier has an energy that's less than an electron at rest on the left side by qV.
correct I never had any argument with this.

Good. Then please tell me which of the following 6 steps you disagree with.

To put that question in the simplest possible mathematical terms:

(1) Einitial=Efinal (conservation of energy)

(2) Einitial = Eq,initial (energy of the charge q before tunneling)

(3) Efinal = Eq,final + Ephoton (energy of the charge after tunneling plus energy of the emitted photon)

(4) Ephoton = Eq,initial - Eq,final (combine (2) and (3) using (1))

(5) If Ephoton = 2qV, then according to (4), Eq,initial - Eq,final=2qV

(6) But according to Johan's diagram (and everyone else's), Eq,initial - Eq,final=qV.

So Johan - what are Eq,initial and Eq,final? What's the correct diagram?

And while you're at it, please point out the error in the (trivial) mathematics below:

Very well. Work is force integrated over distance. Begin with a charge q on one side of the junction. We want to compute

[latex]$W=\int_{x_i}^{x_f} \vec F \cdot d \vec l$[/latex].

where the limits on the integral are the initial and final points of the path along which we move the charge. Next, use the Lorentz force law

[latex]$\vec F=q \vec E = -q \vec \nabla V$[/latex].

Substituting this the integral and using the fundamental theorem of calculus gives

[latex]$W=-q [V(x_f)-V(x_i)]=\pm qV$[/latex],

where the sign depends whether we move across the junction with or against the electric field (and whether we compute the work done on the charge or by the charge). Notice that the result does not depend on the path, and it is not equal to 2qV.
 
I'll try some more diagrams, since repeating the same arguments over and over does not seem to lead anywhere.

I am not convinced that this is an accurate energy diagram for a Josephson junction in this mode of operation, but that is not very relevant and may also be part of the "new" physics. So I will start with this diagram and add a particle "O". Be that an electron, orbital or what you please. As long as it has the same charge as one electron.

Code:
[FONT="Courier New"]
                  ...................
                  |\
                  |  \
                  |    \         qV
                  |      \
                  |....... \..........        
                  |         |
                  |         |
                  |         | 
              _O__|.........|..........          
                            |
                            |   qV
                            |
                            |......................
[/FONT]
Figure 1. Here it is happily trundling along by unspecified mechanisms in the superconductor.

Code:
[FONT="Courier New"]
                  ...................
                  |\
                  |  \
                  |    \         qV
                  |      \
                  |....... \..........        
                  |         |
                  |         |
                  |         | 
              ____|.........|.....O....          
                            |
                            |   qV
                            |
                            |......................
[/FONT]
Figure 2. Something has happened. Did it tunnel through? Did it borrow energy like it can according to Heisenberg and jump the barrier before returning it? It does not matter much. There it is. Because of the bias over the barrier, or the energy level difference or whatever you want to call it, it is now no longer in the ground state, locally. It is in fact qV over the ground state. What kind of state is that? A state with high kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is part of the diagram. How did it get to this state with high kinetic energy? By being accelerated across the barrier by an electric field. How do we see visually that it has high kinetic energy? It is qV above the ground state. That is the additional kinetic energy it picked up. That is how these diagrams work.

Code:
[FONT="Courier New"]
                  ...................
                  |\
                  |  \
                  |    \         qV
                  |      \
                  |....... \..........        
                  |         |
                  |         |
                  |         | 
              ____|.........|..........          
                            |
                            |   qV
                            |
                            |...........O...........
[/FONT]
Figure 3. The excess energy (that was the extra kinetic energy in figure 2) has been radiated away. The particle has dropped down to the ground state (the funky state where superconducting actually happens). What energy did it radiate? qV, of course. Doing it once is plenty.

There you go, guys. Maybe this can help you get further? Just please try to play nicely.
 
This is not true: Tunneling as interpreted as an electron moving through an energy barrier instead of jumping OVER a barrier is totally based on the probability interpretation of the intensity distribution of a Schroedinger wave.

The distinction you make is purely semantic and of no physical importance. The Schrodinger equation predicts that electrons can pass from one side of a potential barrier to another even when they have less total energy than the potential energy of the barrier. When that happens, it's called tunneling.

I accept that the process of borrowing energy and jumping over a barrier is consistent with the Schroedinger equation sans the illogical probability interpretation.

The Schrodinger equation does not permit any borrowing of energy from unspecified sources. And it predicts transmission without any borrowing of energy.

So why do I have to "throw out" the Schroedinger equation?

Because the Schrodinger equation predicts something you deny happens.

And there is enough space for such a different quantum state?

Why wouldn't there be? Especially since the wave function in question is not even confined to the barrier.

This has been the biggest mistake in quantum mechanics EVER. The energy scale of an electron wave is pinned by its rest mass energy which one cannot choose arbitrarily. Thus you say that an electron's Schroedinger wave has kinetic energy even when the wave's total energy is less than an electron's rest mass energy. So Einstein is wrong to have derived that an electron can only have kinetic energy when its energy is more than its rest mass energy:boggled:

The Schrodinger equation is explicitly non-relativistic. The absolute value of the potential energy used in the Schrodinger equation is completely arbitrary, and "rest mass energy" is completely irrelevant to the Schrodinger equation. Why wasn't this obvious?

and in my model it is conserved because the borrowed energy is returned after it has done the work to move the charge-carrier to the next position.

Um... if the energy was used to do work, it's gone, and you can't get it back unless you do negative work.

But perhaps you don't actually mean work in the technical sense, but are just being sloppy with your language. Even so, it doesn't matter. You're violating conservation of energy. I don't really care where you think you're NOT violating it, the total energy budget shows quite clearly that you are violating it somewhere. It doesn't ultimately matter where that somewhere is.
 

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