Sulfur in the WTC -- sheetrock or thermate?

are they saying there is above expected quantities of sulfur IN the steel, or ON the steel? In the steel would imply the steel was below spec since sulfer is a common impurity. This would've been a huge deal to NIST so I'm assuming it's on the steel.

Isn't supher a common ingredient in diesel fuel? Weren't there at least one large backup generator fuel tank on the upper floors and more on the lower ones? What about deposits from all the exhaust of all the diesel trucks in the removal teams? Remember the pictures of lines of dump trucks in downtown manhattan?
 
Kent1 said:
I have spoken with Jonathan Barnett who worked on this mystery for FEMA. (*He prefers that people speak to him directly because he gets taken out of context quite a bit.)
http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/steel.html

He was very helpful and even refuted some points from Dr. Jones.
The 3 top sources are
Gyp. wallboard dust
Heating oil
Acid Rain

He also explained the "partly evaporated steel members" mentioned in Jones paper was indeed this steel http://www.me.wpi.edu/MTE/People/imsm.html
It wasn't steel that reached 2860C as Jones seems to imply.

There was a good amount of no 6 fuel oil leaking at ground zero.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Kent. Great post.
 
OK, not big on chemistry here. I have a layman's question.

From this link http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/steel.html

"A eutectic compound is a mixture of two or more substances that melts at the lowest temperature of any mixture of its components. Blacksmiths took advantage of this property by welding over fires of sulfur-rich charcoal, which lowers the melting point of iron."

I thought you couldn't lower the melting point of a substance? (unless you changed it's composition in the smelting process?)
 
Gravy said:
Thanks, Kent. Great post.
Click to expand...
I'll add more from some of my own research, its a little bit of an info dump on spills for those who are interested. (I'm still researching)

Number 6 fuel oil spill at the Twin Towers
http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/osw/meeting/pdf02/kahnp.pdf

Here is a link on Corrosion (Hot and cold) and bunker #6 fuel
http://www.liquidminerals.com/fuels.htm

There were many spills at ground zero including
10,000 gallons of No. 2 fuel oil
1,000 gallons of diesel oil from ruptured petroleum storage tanks at 130 Liberty Street.
100,000 gallons of dielectric fluid from transformers and oil-filled electric feeders present in the former Con edison substations located at WTC7

Here's a link to some of the various spills and locations at ground zero
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/capconstr/fstc/documents/deis/appendices/appendixl.pdf
http://www.renewnyc.com/content/pdfs/ea/10_hazardous_materials.pdf
http://www.renewnyc.com/content/pdfs/eis/Appendix_D.pdf
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntn20242.htm
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/WTC Part IIC - WTC 7 Collapse Final.pdf
Some of the reports are a little conflicting.
The more later reports (post clean up) we can find, the better.
 
Last edited:
XXX said:
OK, not big on chemistry here. I have a layman's question.

From this link http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/steel.html

"A eutectic compound is a mixture of two or more substances that melts at the lowest temperature of any mixture of its components. Blacksmiths took advantage of this property by welding over fires of sulfur-rich charcoal, which lowers the melting point of iron."

I thought you couldn't lower the melting point of a substance? (unless you changed it's composition in the smelting process?)
Click to expand...

Two substances can form an alloy or a solution which has a lower melting point than either of the substances by itself. An obvious example is a solution of common salt (sodium chloride) in water, which melts at a temperature lower than that of either pure water or pure salt.

Here's a page that explains this behavior with my favorite example, tin-lead solder:

http://www.chemguide.co.uk/physical/phaseeqia/snpb.html

You can see why the solders used in electronics work are usually either 60/40 or 63/37 Sn/Pb. These alloys are both very close to the eutectic proportions for tin/lead; this gives solder which melts at the lowest possible temperature, which helps to avoid heat damage to components and PC boards during soldering.
 
Thanks for the explination ktesibios. I'll check out that link. Always nice to learn something new.
 
dubfan,

You might try posting a link to this thread in the Science subforum, too. I know there are a lot of super-smart lab geeks over there. They might help us translate some of the more technical stuff.

Great thread, everyone! Thanks for all the reading material (esp. Kent!)
 
Huntsman, do you feel comfortable speculating further on the expected by-products of thermate? I'm putting together a presentation rebutting some of Steven Jones' claims, and I'd like to be able to say, "If thermate were used, you would expect to find barium oxide and elemental iron in specific ratios," etc.

Thanks
 
AbrashTX;

Welcome to the JREF forum. I recognize your name from SLC. Here, unlike other sites, you can freely express your opinion, Debunk or Conspiracy, and be reassured you will not be banned. they debate furiously here though, so watch out for verbal shrapnel when observing and argument.

My advice re: above, is contact huntsman via PM...seems nice enough...doubt he will mind.

TAM
 
Abrash,

Just noticed your question :)

I'm not an expert on thermate, but simply looking at the ingredients list will give you an idea what to look for.

Thermate consists of a mixture of ~69% thermite (aluminum/iron oxide mix), ~29% barium nitrate, and 2% sulphur. Barium nitrate increases the thermal effect.

THe primary effect of thermite is to produce iron slag and aluminum oxide. However, each of these would likely be present anyway (lots of aluminum in the building, and heat would have oxidized the aluminum and possibly melted some iron or steel in the underground fires after the collapse). Sulphur would, IMHO, be the least likely marker as it's such a small percentage of the thermate mix, and it also has many other likely sources. I'd expect to see the barium nitrate undergo oxidation processes, but I'm not 100% sure of what the by-products would be...we'd need a chemist for that. I'd suspect barium oxides, not sure what the nitrate would do.

IN any case, I'd also expect to see all of these compounds in the same area. Sulphur, found outside the presence of the other compunds that would be expected, would not be evidence for thermate. Beyond these statements, I'm not qualified to comment.
 
Huntsman said:
Abrash,

Just noticed your question :)

I'm not an expert on thermate, but simply looking at the ingredients list will give you an idea what to look for.

Thermate consists of a mixture of ~69% thermite (aluminum/iron oxide mix), ~29% barium nitrate, and 2% sulphur. Barium nitrate increases the thermal effect.

THe primary effect of thermite is to produce iron slag and aluminum oxide. However, each of these would likely be present anyway (lots of aluminum in the building, and heat would have oxidized the aluminum and possibly melted some iron or steel in the underground fires after the collapse). Sulphur would, IMHO, be the least likely marker as it's such a small percentage of the thermate mix, and it also has many other likely sources. I'd expect to see the barium nitrate undergo oxidation processes, but I'm not 100% sure of what the by-products would be...we'd need a chemist for that. I'd suspect barium oxides, not sure what the nitrate would do.

IN any case, I'd also expect to see all of these compounds in the same area. Sulphur, found outside the presence of the other compunds that would be expected, would not be evidence for thermate. Beyond these statements, I'm not qualified to comment.
Click to expand...


All doctor Jones found it Sulfur form the buildings, Aluminum, Fluoride, Manganese, and no chromium so he says the sample could not be A36 structural steel because it was not stainless steel that still confuses me.

He basically found trace elements left from the steel making process.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
All doctor Jones found it Sulfur form the buildings, Aluminum, Fluoride, Manganese, and no chromium so he says the sample could not be A36 structural steel because it was not stainless steel that still confuses me.

He basically found trace elements left from the steel making process.
Click to expand...
Yah. A cursory internet search shows A36 structural steel to be a low carbon steel, not stainless.

What he found seems to be the trace elements that give any alloy its specific characteristics.
 
MortFurd said:
Yah. A cursory internet search shows A36 structural steel to be a low carbon steel, not stainless.

What he found seems to be the trace elements that give any alloy its specific characteristics.
Click to expand...

Actually fluoride and Aluminum are used only in the manufacturing process and can be left over as trace elements.
Manganese is used in the steel Alloys, that is what he found.
I know that A 36 is not stainless, that is the problem Dr. Jones says it is.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
I know that A 36 is not stainless, that is the problem Dr. Jones says it is.
Click to expand...
I understood that. Yes, you know that A36 is not stainless. I was just surprised that Dr. Jones couldn't find that out.

I can't locate a copy of Dr. Jones' work. Does anyone have a link?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom