Suicide - Facts and Fiction

[Naive1000]

Suicide has been a subject on my mind recently. In this article "We tell boys not to cry, then wonder about male suicide" they talk about the rate of suicide in men:

One out of every 5,700 men will kill themselves in any given year. The rate is between three and four times higher for men than for women, and highest among men under 35. (Link)

Now that is fact for X period of time. Easily proven with statistical data. But, I wonder about another statement commonly made:

Women attempt suicide three times as often as men. (Link)

But also claim:

No annual national data on attempted suicide are available; reliable scientific research, however, has found that:... More women than men report a history of attempted suicide, with a gender ratio of 3:1 (Link)

This of course led me to look for the source of this research, which pointed me to the CDC. The CDC defines suicide as self-harm which can include things like cutting, alcohol poisoning, and questionable accidents construed as self-harm/with intent. Here is the CDC definition:

Self-harm, confirmed or suspected: Injury or poisoning resulting from a deliberate violent act inflicted on oneself with the intent to take one's own life or with the intent to harm oneself. This category includes suicide, suicide attempt, and other intentional self-harm.

So, guesses based on the numbers provided by the CDC's questionable statistics seems to create this idea, that more women attempt than men. This to me seems like poor logic for basing a commonly cited "fact". What I'm wondering is, is there any actual scientific data or research into the actual numbers for attempted suicides and who is more likely to try, men or women? Because logic would seem to state if women try 3 times as often but men succeed 4 times as often something is fundamentally inconsistent. If women try so much more, statistically it would seem, the numbers would be much closer if not higher for women. Is this a trueism or just dogma that everyone accepts as truth?

ETA: Also, please feel free to comment on anything related to suicide, the articles listed, any hard data you bring in, or just your opinions on the subject. Please, feel free to make it a free for all thread.

 

[Stupefied]

I may be wrong, but I think any statistic relying on what people report about themselves is biased from the start. I hope this isn't sexist, but I think that claim may have to do with women being more open with their emotions than men at least in my experience.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Women are much more likely to use "non-violent" methods to attempt suicide - such as self poisoning. They are therefore much more likely to fail in their attempts. There is plenty of research about this, but I don't have time to look it up just now. I will later if nobody beats me to it.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I think the story is that more women attempt, but they use less violent and less successful means.

Interestingly, this is not cross-cultural:

Results: The rural suicide rate in Beijing for both genders was higher than for their urban counterparts. Further, the elderly had the highest suicide rate followed by women aged 20–29. Also, the male to female ratio in China was less than one. In Australia, the rural male suicide rate was higher than the urban whereas the urban female suicide rate was higher than the rural. The male to female ratio was 4 to 1. The differences in rural to urban and male to female ratios between Australia and Beijing are statistically significant. Conclusions: In contrast to the west, male suicide rates are not higher than female rates in China. Urban rates are not necessarily higher than rural rates – not even in a western setting. Cultural factors and regional differences in socio-economic situation are significant in explaining the low gender ratio and the relatively higher suicide rates in rural China. Limitations: The suicide rate in the Beijing region might not exactly reflect the same for the whole of China.

Linky.

This textbook says it goes back to depression diagnosis:

Male life expectancy in Europe is between 5–15 years lower than that of women. This might, in part, be related to the fact that men in general approach and consume medical services only half as often as females. Between 70–90 per cent of all suicides are committed in a clinical condition of major depression and, paradoxically, men commit suicide 3–10 times more often than women in spite of being only half or less frequently diagnosed as depressive than women. Male depressive symptoms are different from those reported by females, mainly because of men’s alexythymic difficulty in recognizing and reporting depressive symptoms. In addition, male depression can manifest itself as abusive, aggressive or antisocial behaviour. Moreover, in the case of suicidal behaviour, males more frequently use violent or lethal methods. Training of health care workers on earlier and better detection of male depression (including the use of the Gotland male Depression Scale) and increasing public awareness for depression are promising tools in the prevention of suicide in males.

Linky.

Here is a study more focused on intention, but still including the question of means:

Women who commit suicide use less violent methods, such as drugs and carbon monoxide poisoning, than do men, who more often use violent methods such as guns and hanging. Theories that attempt to explain this finding focus on gender differences in suicidal intent, socialization, emotions, interpersonal relationships, orientation and access to methods, and neurobiological factors. Data from a psychological autopsy study were used to test the theory that women who commit suicide use less violent means because they are less intent on dying. Although women were significantly less likely to use a violent method than men, there was no difference in the lethality of their suicidal intent.

Linky.

This one says things are more complex than just method:

There are gender differences in youth suicidal behaviour that are evident in childhood and persist throughout adolescence and young adulthood. In Western countries, young females are twice as likely as males to report suicidal ideation and suicide attempt behaviour. However, despite the fact that females make more suicide attempts, males are three- to fourfold more likely to die by suicide than females. This paper reviews the epidemiological evidence for gender differences in suicidal ideation, attempted suicide and completed suicide among young people and explores possible reasons for the observed differences. These reasons include differences in methods, intent, ascertainment, the cultural acceptability of suicide, psychopathology (including substance abuse, mood disorder, externalizing behaviours and propensity to violence), and psychosocial differences between males and females. While it is often suggested that gender differences in youth suicidal behaviour may be explained solely or predominantly by method choice, careful examination suggests that the issues are much more complex. In fact, females may enjoy more protection from suicide than males in a number of areas.

Linky.

This is a paper too big to quote, but it goes over many different studies on measuring sex differences.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

A lot of suicide attempts are intentionally meant to fail. It is the classic cry for help. It is also still considered a suicide attempt.

People who really want to kill themselves will find a way that is irreversible. My own mother killed herself after she was diagnosed with cancer and was terminal (I estimate that she had less than a week to live when she did it). No drugs (she has access to a liter of liquid morphine at the time of her death). She chose a pistol to the head that she bought without any of us knowing about it after she was diagnosed but well before she was incapacitated. She was always anti-gun to the point that as kids we never were allowed to have toy guns in the house (this was the early 70's when it seemed every other kid but me had a toy gun) so nobody even thought to look for one in her bedroom.

I later found out that she had researched the best and most effective ways to commit suicide through the hemlock society. She even went so far as to make sure that she had a signed DNR on her bedroom door so that even if the paramedics could have saved her they couldn't legally do it.

So yeah. People who really want to die will make sure that it happens.

 

[Naive1000]

@Stupefied: I don't think it's sexist just the way men and women are socialized in western culture at the moment.

@Tsukasa Buddha: Thanks, I'll look through that information.

@Sam.I.Am: Sorry to hear about you mother. Wanted to ask one question what is the hemlock society? I've never heard of it.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

@Sam.I.Am: Sorry to hear about you mother. Wanted to ask one question what is the hemlock society? I've never heard of it.

Thank you for the condolences but I'm over it now. It did mess me up for awhile mostly because I'm the one who heard the gunshot and found her dying. It didn't help that for the first half hour or so the police thought that I had shot her because apparently women don't usually kill themselves that way. They dropped it after they found out that she had bought the gun while I was living over 2,000 miles away.

The Hemlock Society is a right to die organization. I believe the name comes from Socrates drinking the Hemlock tea that he knew was going to kill him. Google has more on them.

In my mothers note she was pretty specific in her belief that in a society where we will kill an animal that was suffering but won't allow or even consider the same for a human when it was very clear that the road would only lead to even worse suffering was inhumane. That she saw a lot of her close family die from various forms of cancer during a time where doctors were loathe to administer pain medication over addiction concerns and losing their license to practice (especially where addiction was the least of their problems) was probably a prime motivator for what she did even though that wasn't the way things were when she died. I think that she had decided to kill herself if that ever happened to her back in the mid 70's, two decades before she died.

 

[ponderingturtle]

A lot of suicide attempts are intentionally meant to fail. It is the classic cry for help. It is also still considered a suicide attempt.

People who really want to kill themselves will find a way that is irreversible. My own mother killed herself after she was diagnosed with cancer and was terminal (I estimate that she had less than a week to live when she did it). No drugs (she has access to a liter of liquid morphine at the time of her death). She chose a pistol to the head that she bought without any of us knowing about it after she was diagnosed but well before she was incapacitated. She was always anti-gun to the point that as kids we never were allowed to have toy guns in the house (this was the early 70's when it seemed every other kid but me had a toy gun) so nobody even thought to look for one in her bedroom.

I later found out that she had researched the best and most effective ways to commit suicide through the hemlock society. She even went so far as to make sure that she had a signed DNR on her bedroom door so that even if the paramedics could have saved her they couldn't legally do it.

So yeah. People who really want to die will make sure that it happens.

Depending on the injury a DNT wouldn't mean anything. If you are trying to resuscitate a trauma patient there is likely very little odds of success. That would have been useful if she had a heart attack first.

 

[Hubert Cumberdale]

Never heard of the Hemlock Society before.

I also find it bizarre that we put down suffering animals and do it for 'humanitarian' reasons, yet refuse to do the same for suffering people.

I have heard that nitrogen asphyxiation is a good way to go.

 

[sgtbaker]

Suicide has been a subject on my mind recently. In this article "We tell boys not to cry, then wonder about male suicide" they talk about the rate of suicide in men:
Now that is fact for X period of time. Easily proven with statistical data. But, I wonder about another statement commonly made: But also claim: This of course led me to look for the source of this research, which pointed me to the CDC. The CDC defines suicide as self-harm which can include things like cutting, alcohol poisoning, and questionable accidents construed as self-harm/with intent. Here is the CDC definition: So, guesses based on the numbers provided by the CDC's questionable statistics seems to create this idea, that more women attempt than men. This to me seems like poor logic for basing a commonly cited "fact". What I'm wondering is, is there any actual scientific data or research into the actual numbers for attempted suicides and who is more likely to try, men or women? Because logic would seem to state if women try 3 times as often but men succeed 4 times as often something is fundamentally inconsistent. If women try so much more, statistically it would seem, the numbers would be much closer if not higher for women. Is this a trueism or just dogma that everyone accepts as truth?

ETA: Also, please feel free to comment on anything related to suicide, the articles listed, any hard data you bring in, or just your opinions on the subject. Please, feel free to make it a free for all thread.

I think you are misunderstanding what they are saying. They can make no factual claims on how many men/women attempt suicide because there is no national database. The best they can say is that more women report attempting suicide, than men. Given societies expectation of men to be "tough," there is a good chance that more men have attempted to commit suicide, than. However, based on the information available to the CDC, they can't make that claim. They are not looking to prove a point, just provide access to information.

 

[The Dark Lord]

I had an aunt who killed herself via a plasic bag and helium. She was going to spend a long time in prison, maybe the rest of her life, and figured it would be better to die.

 

[Naive1000]

I think you are misunderstanding what they are saying. They can make no factual claims on how many men/women attempt suicide because there is no national database. The best they can say is that more women report attempting suicide, than men. Given societies expectation of men to be "tough," there is a good chance that more men have attempted to commit suicide, than. However, based on the information available to the CDC, they can't make that claim. They are not looking to prove a point, just provide access to information.

My problem with it is that they state it constantly as fact without any real data or research into the subject.

 

[sgtbaker]

My problem with it is that they state it constantly as fact without any real data or research into the subject.

At the bottom of the article, they cited NIMH as their source for that information. Did you check to find out what they have to say? They are not repeating anything as fact other than the data that they have, the number of men and women who report attempts at suicide.
Can you provide a link to the CDC info? Also, that article was written in 2008 based on 1999 data. If you were to go to the CDC and find different results, it's likely because newer data is available.

I keep reading your OP, trying to figure out what you're getting at. Do you think CDC or NIMH are trying to skew numbers to present something that isn't true? I will try to explain the numbers; I've made four actual attempts to kill myself (pills twice, and two rather comical attempts at strangulation), in my teens. Obviously none were successful so my numbers would go into attempts. A male is more likely to use more lethal attempts, such as my friend who shot himself in the head. That would go into the suicide statistics. So while he would only count for one suicide, I account for four attempts. Obviously, if these are self reported attempts, they were failed attempts. If a male is more likely to acutally kill himself, he would not be self reporting attempts because he is dead.

 

[Naive1000]

CDC Definitions Link.

...[snip]... I keep reading your OP, trying to figure out what you're getting at. Do you think CDC or NIMH are trying to skew numbers to present something that isn't true? ...[snip]...

Well, I guess I'll get to the point since you asked so directly: I'm wondering if someone is influencing the numbers to make it seem a gendered problem. The more articles I see recently and the way they're framed is that this is a major women's problem, even though men die from suicide much more often. And, I want to know why it's not seen a problem for everyone and society.

Since you've related your experience I should probably reciprocate. I've tried to kill myself six times, and no, none of them were a cry for help they were all real attempts. Four led to the ICU. The last left me in a coma and on dialysis for over a month. I have the scars from cutting my wrist, but mostly I used pills. Not much like a guy I guess; but I didn't have access to any guns my first time and after then I wasn't allowed to own them. Guess I screw up the statistics, but I think only three would have been counted.

 

[sgtbaker]

CDC Definitions Link.


Well, I guess I'll get to the point since you asked so directly: I'm wondering if someone is influencing the numbers to make it seem a gendered problem. The more articles I see recently and the way they're framed is that this is a major women's problem, even though men die from suicide much more often. And, I want to know why it's not seen a problem for everyone and society.

I was looking for the link to see who was repeating what, over and over again, as if it were fact. What I saw was them stating the numbers they have. If more men are attempting suicide, they are not reporting and I've stated that it was possible and why I think it would be the case. With all due respect, I think you started your search looking to prove something and when the numbers don't match your prediction, they must be misrepresenting. I am not trying to be insulting or name calling, but if memory serves, all your threads have something to do with society's favorable treatment of females and dismissal of males. Creating the premise, googling to find the numbers to prove it, and then dismissing all counter claims as "conspiracy" is not proper research.

I will say this and this is predominantly opinion, based on what I know. The gender issue is in our culture, not in the numbers. I repeat, again, the attempted suicide is based on reported attempts. 1) In any research I've done, a female is more likely to seek help (in physical medicine as well as psychological). This probably has something to do with the fact that typically, females excel in communication and self awareness.

For a male, on top of the difficulty identifying and communicating problems, he has the social expectation of being strong and unemotional. A male annoucing he is suffering, emotionally, is more likely to be met with mockery, by both men and women; where-as a woman making the same announcement, is more likely to be met with comfort and support.

Since you've related your experience I should probably reciprocate. I've tried to kill myself six times, and no, none of them were a cry for help they were all real attempts. Four led to the ICU. The last left me in a coma and on dialysis for over a month. I have the scars from cutting my wrist, but mostly I used pills. Not much like a guy I guess; but I didn't have access to any guns my first time and after then I wasn't allowed to own them. Guess I screw up the statistics, but I think only three would have been counted.

I never understood why people feel compelled to make that distinction. It's not like there are two seperate columns dividing incidents between those who "really mean it" and those who are "just crying for help." Most attempts at suicide, with the obvious exception of physical pain beyond bearability and terminal illness, are cries for help, whether they are successful (I hate using successful with suicide terminalogy) or not. I hardly see a situation where an individual is willing to risk permanent harm to their body and/or death, to get someone to hear/help them as a cast off problem of an attention seeker.

The statistics, though, are not black and white. They are not saying that a male will, in every case, use a more lethal method, they are just saying that a male is more likely to use more lethal methods, whether it be based on availability, timing, or the nature of the individual. Your situation is, perhaps, the exception.

 

[Naive1000]

...[snip]... I am not trying to be insulting or name calling, but if memory serves, all your threads have something to do with society's favorable treatment of females and dismissal of males. Creating the premise, googling to find the numbers to prove it, and then dismissing all counter claims as "conspiracy" is not proper research.

Your right gender issues are my interest at the moment, so that's what I talk about. I focus on one issue, so I don't think about other things. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but thanks for distilling me down to that. To be honest my premise has more to do with greed than any conspiracy, but it doesn't matter to you I'm sure.

...[snip]... I never understood why people feel compelled to make that distinction. It's not like there are two seperate columns dividing incidents between those who "really mean it" and those who are "just crying for help." Most attempts at suicide, with the obvious exception of physical pain beyond bearability and terminal illness, are cries for help, whether they are successful (I hate using successful with suicide terminalogy) or not. I hardly see a situation where an individual is willing to risk permanent harm to their body and/or death, to get someone to hear/help them as a cast off problem of an attention seeker.
...[snip]...

Because when you survive people don't think you were really trying to kill yourself. You were really just looking for attention. So, I specified.

While the gender bias kept my interest up for a little bit, it's not really doing it for me anymore. Nothing is, so I think I'm out. Thanks for the conversation.

 

[sgtbaker]

Your right gender issues are my interest at the moment, so that's what I talk about. I focus on one issue, so I don't think about other things. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but thanks for distilling me down to that. To be honest my premise has more to do with greed than any conspiracy, but it doesn't matter to you I'm sure.

I didn't call you a conspiracy theorist and I am sorry if I am not communicating my point very well. I just selected the word conspiracy because I couldn't think of another word to represent the idea that data collectors are manipulating numbers to present false facts. I am honestly interested in the greed motive. I don't understand who stands to gain from it, if that were the case.

Because when you survive people don't think you were really trying to kill yourself. You were really just looking for attention. So, I specified.

I said "people make that distinction" meaning society not you. I get why you feel you have to say it, I just don't get the idea that unsuccessful attempts at suicide should be taken any lighter.

While the gender bias kept my interest up for a little bit, it's not really doing it for me anymore. Nothing is, so I think I'm out. Thanks for the conversation

I am sorry it ended on a sour note.