suicide bombers

[Mycroft]

Re: Pointless? Hardly.

The IDF has records of cases in which family members turned in their sons before they went on an attack, explaining that they worried their house would be demolished if their son committed a terrorist act. There were around 20 such cases.[/list]

And those who decided not to become suicide-bombers out of concern for their families can't be counted.

 

[webfusion]

"It is collective punishment, it could be used as a definition for collective punishment...."

WTF.

The drafters of the Geneva Conventions had in mind the reprisal killings of World Wars I and II. In the First World War, Germans executed Belgian villagers in mass retribution for resistance activity. In World War II, Nazis carried out a form of collective punishment to suppress resistance. Entire villages or towns or districts were held responsible for any resistance activity that took place there.

In any case, Israel does not subscribe to the 4th Geneva Convention as applying to the territories. I refuse to consider fanatics blowing themselves up at shopping malls (or in subway trains) as a legitimate form of 'resistance'.

 

[The Fool]

"It is collective punishment, it could be used as a definition for collective punishment...."

WTF.

The drafters of the Geneva Conventions had in mind the reprisal killings of World Wars I and II. In the First World War, Germans executed Belgian villagers in mass retribution for resistance activity. In World War II, Nazis carried out a form of collective punishment to suppress resistance. Entire villages or towns or districts were held responsible for any resistance activity that took place there.

In any case, Israel does not subscribe to the 4th Geneva Convention as applying to the territories. I refuse to consider fanatics blowing themselves up at shopping malls (or in subway trains) as a legitimate form of 'resistance'.

It is still collective punishment...both before, during and still is after you get upset about it.... Wise men in Israel have realised this and put an end to it.

While we are on the subject of WTF..... WTF difference does it make if you think the crime is legitimate resistance or not? I don't think bombing civilians is justifiable either... The punishment of the family is what makes it collective punishment...nothing to do with the nature of the crime.

 

[webfusion]

"collective"

'The punishment of the family is what makes it collective punishment"

No. The punishment is directed at the home of the suicide bomber. Specifically his home, while all other nearby homes and in some cases, even other apartments in the same building, are left untouched and unscathed.

I think it is similar to the policy of the Drug Enforcement Agency in the USA, where they confiscate your home if you are involved in dealing drugs there. Too freakin' bad if your family is now homeless... you shoulda thought of that before bringing a few kilos of crack into the place!

The wise men in Israel have left open the option of resuming the policy of demolitions of the homes of suicide bombers, and the halt of that methodology is not set in stone.
Israel's Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz indicated that should circumstances change dramatically, it is possible that Israel would reconsider its policy on house demolitions. -- reported Feb. 2005

 

[Mycroft]

Re: "collective"

I think it is similar to the policy of the Drug Enforcement Agency in the USA, where they confiscate your home if you are involved in dealing drugs there. Too freakin' bad if your family is now homeless... you shoulda thought of that before bringing a few kilos of crack into the place!

In fact I dealt with this once.

Several years ago, I had a sweet little old lady call me up and ask if I could refinance her home in order to prefent forclosure. At first everything looked great, but when I got her title commitment back, the impending "forclosure" turned out not to be from her mortgage company, but from the state drug enforcement agency. When I did a little investigating to find out what was going on, I spoke to a federal officer who explained to me the woman's grandson had been dealing drugs out of the house for years, and after much warnings and trying to get him to stop, they were taking her house away.

It's a sad story and I wish the state could have put this kid in prison rather than take away his grandmother's home. At the same time, he was a hard-core gangster who brought crime into the neighborhood, and lesser measures the state tried had failed.

The truth is Grandma knew what was going on, she knew her grandson was a drug dealer, and even though she seemed nice when she first called me, she lied when she told me the forcelosure was an ordinary one. While I can understand and sympathize with the forces that led her to deny the problem, she was a participant in the loss of her home, she made the choices that put her in that position.

 

[CBL4]

Blowing up a suicide bomber is not an ideal solution but is there a better one? What else can you do to discourage murderous actions by someone who intends to die? Our laws always make the assumption that criminals have their own best interests at heart. If the criminal has a death wish, they are no longer effective.

Right now, these murderers are treated as heroes and their families are rewarded both monetarily and with prestige. It would be great if we could prevent the families from being given money by terrorist/charitable organizations but that is pretty much impossible.

It's a bad policy but is there a better one?

CBL

 

[webfusion]

Faith-Based Method Against Muslim Terrorists

I hesitate to even offer this here on JREF, but in the spirit of education and revealing all information to let people decide for themselves about a topic --- CBL4 asked about another solution, so here ya go....

http://www.conservativetruth.org/article.php?id=164

On October 31, 2002, the very practical Russian authorities announced that the bodies of the Chechen suicide-murderers who had taken hostages in the Moscow Theater last week would be buried - wrapped in pigskins. Muslim Shahidi (Jihad martyrs) believe that their terrorist acts done in Allah’s name will grant them immediate access to heaven. But they also believe that if they are buried in contact with swine – pigs – they will be barred from heaven for eternity.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.htm
Goes into detail about the entire 'pigskin deterrance' issue and even specifically mentions the myth of Gen. Black Jack Pershing in Moro, Philippines(1911):

• It was actually Colonel Alexander Rodgers of the 6th Cavalry who took advantage of religious prejudice and accomplished what the bayonets and Krags had been unable to. Rodgers inaugurated a system of burying all dead juramentados (Islamic terrorists of that era) in a common grave with the carcasses of slaughtered pigs. The Mohammedan religion forbids contact with pork; and this relatively simple device resulted in the withdrawal of juramentados to sections not under the jusrisdiction of Col. Rodgers. Other officers took up the principle, adding new refinements to make it additionally unattractive to the Moros. In some sections the Moro juramentado was beheaded after death and the head sewn inside the carcass of a pig. And so the rite of running juramentado, at least semi-religious in character, ceased to be in Sulu. The last cases of this religious mania occurred in the early decades of the century. The juramentados were replaced by the amucks. .. who were simply homicidal maniacs with no religious significance attaching to their acts.

And there is the source for the expression "running amuck"

FWIW.

 

[Psi Baba]

Re: Faith-Based Method Against Muslim Terrorists

I hesitate to even offer this here on JREF, but in the spirit of education and revealing all information to let people decide for themselves about a topic --- CBL4 asked about another solution, so here ya go....

http://www.conservativetruth.org/article.php?id=164

On October 31, 2002, the very practical Russian authorities announced that the bodies of the Chechen suicide-murderers who had taken hostages in the Moscow Theater last week would be buried - wrapped in pigskins. Muslim Shahidi (Jihad martyrs) believe that their terrorist acts done in Allah’s name will grant them immediate access to heaven. But they also believe that if they are buried in contact with swine – pigs – they will be barred from heaven for eternity.

I think that's an excellent idea. If nothing else, it could end the debate over whether Islamic terrorists are truly motivated by religion or by politics alone.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Blowing up a suicide bomber is not an ideal solution but is there a better one? What else can you do to discourage murderous actions by someone who intends to die?

Israel on Cutting Edge of Stopping Bombers - July 14, 2005


JERUSALEM - (Associated Press) - on the forefront of nations fighting terrorist bombings, has decreased the number of suicide attacks by using methods ranging from employing Palestinian informants to asking guards to look each passenger directly in the eye.

One bus company even developed a sensor to detect explosives.

But experts say good intelligence, relentless military pursuit and a vigilant public — not technological innovation — is behind most of Israel's success in stopping bombers.

"Psychologically," Manor said, "the guards are more effective and aggressive. People can see them."

Additionally, mall entrances have walkthrough metal detectors, and bus stations have X-ray machines for bags.

Accurate real-time intelligence is the most important factor, he said.

Israel employs a vast array of informers among the Palestinians and often has stopped bombers at checkpoints before they cross into Israel.

 

[CBL4]

I doubt the pig thing would work but it is worth a try. Since you cannot harm dead people, all you can do is to make them think that they will suffer in their (imaginary) after life. I imagine it is against some international law however.

In any case, the Russians did not stop suicide bombers.

In any case, OBL would probably rationalize a reason it is not harmful to the murderers (imaginary) souls.

CBL

 

[webfusion]

Imagine the outcry!

"I doubt the pig thing would work but it is worth a try."

To begin with, we jews have our own sensibilities about the "pig thing" so I'm sure it wouldn't be such a great idea to sanction officially in Israel.

Also, can you envision the outrage throughout the 'arab world' if such a plan was implemented by the USA or Britain?
We saw the reaction with the alleged Koran abuses, so I would think that the "pig thing" isn't going to be very well-received by the Muslim masses in general.

Against some international law?
I wonder...

 

[brodski]

Re: Imagine the outcry!

"I doubt the pig thing would work but it is worth a try."

To begin with, we jews have our own sensibilities about the "pig thing" so I'm sure it wouldn't be such a great idea to sanction officially in Israel.

Also, can you envision the outrage throughout the 'arab world' if such a plan was implemented by the USA or Britain?
We saw the reaction with the alleged Koran abuses, so I would think that the "pig thing" isn't going to be very well-received by the Muslim masses in general.

Against some international law?
I wonder...

I am unsure how I feel about deliberately desecrating the bodies of terrorists, my liberal side screams out against it on some levels, but my atheist beliefs kind of make me think " so what, if it prevented further attacks"

However I do see one practical problem with it (in the UK at least), namely there is no appropriate mechanism to implement the policy. In the UK criminals (whether petty thieves or murderous psychopaths) cannot be punished until they have been convicted of a crime, suicide bombers don't tend to go to trial, it is never fully legally established that the suspected perpetrators of a suicide bombing are actually guilty, therefore the government cannot pass sanction on them. I also think they may be some statutes somewhere about not "desiccating corpses", which would have to be overturned.

 

[The Fool]

Re: "collective"

'The punishment of the family is what makes it collective punishment"

No. The punishment is directed at the home of the suicide bomber. Specifically his home, while all other nearby homes and in some cases, even other apartments in the same building, are left untouched and unscathed.

you punish the house? Sorry web but thats just too silly... You are punishing the family...its collective punishment, its stupid and pointless and counter-productive but you love it because its great revenge.


I think it is similar to the policy of the Drug Enforcement Agency in the USA, where they confiscate your home if you are involved in dealing drugs there. Too freakin' bad if your family is now homeless... you shoulda thought of that before bringing a few kilos of crack into the place!

That is confiscating the assets of the offender because those assets are presumed to have been purchased out of the proceeds. Do your children own your home? If one of them was arrested for drug offences would the DEA confiscate your home? No, the comparison is not very strong is it.

The wise men in Israel have left open the option of resuming the policy of demolitions of the homes of suicide bombers, and the halt of that methodology is not set in stone.
Israel's Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz indicated that should circumstances change dramatically, it is possible that Israel would reconsider its policy on house demolitions. -- reported Feb. 2005
My opinion is that this statement was made simply to placate those that like collective punishment and yearn for its return. It was, and still is, a stupid idea and a miserably failed policy, no politician with half a brain is going to get bitten twice.