Suggestions for Ouija Board experiments

[Ladewig]

This seems to sum it up and is the part that interests me so much: parts of the brain that seem to operate somewhat independently, can hold somewhat surprising and contrary opinions,

And Tversky and Kahneman showed that the conscious part of a healthy brain can hold somewhat surprising and contrary opinions. My point is surprisingness and contrariness is not conclusive evidence of the participation of the subconscious. It may very well be a direct result of communication with the unconscious (and for all I know the majority of the time it is communication with the unconsciousness), but the appearance of these two traits is not proof of communication with the subconscious.

 

[Mooncalf]

I love the dice idea. That's way more simple than my idea of getting a foreign language Ouija board, with only English-speaking operators. And translate as needed.

 

[Montag451]

The only experiment I can think of is to drop it off a tall tower, measure time and calculate the acceleration due to gravity.

Is it not as simple as having questions that know body knows the answer to? The dice would work easily. The question is "what is the number" and repeat a number of times. Easy to double blind.or do the players need to know the answer?

 

[ExMinister]

Probably they would say the spirits can't see the dice either without the use of human eyes since they usually claim the spirits have to use their eyes to see the board. So maybe you could have someone in the next room write down a number or maybe a name pulled randomly from a phone book and have that person staring at it. The spirit should be able to see through their eyes, too, right?

ETA: Or to stay with the dice idea, have the person in the next room roll the dice and stare at the dice instead.

 

[ExMinister]

Experiment tried

So I tried my own suggestion last night. Dusted off the board and sat down with it alone. I had a magazine that I hadn't read, opened it randomly and set it on top of a tall dresser, open to whatever was on that page.

From where I was sitting I couldn't see the page. The planchette moved around freely as always, once again giving me the sensation that I was in communication with someone else. I am going to call it Voice 2.

Voice 2 claimed to be able to see the magazine and the picture and willing to participate in my experiment. When asked to actually identify the picture, though, it hemmed and hawed a little. It then spelled out TEB. It was then adamant that TEB was related to the magazine page. I asked if it wanted to elaborate or change it's answer, last chance, and it said no. I got up and went across the room to check and the picture was a SlimFast advertisement. Model, SlimFast products, some writing about SlimFast. No TEB.

My husband came home with the kids then. Being a bit skeptical, he wanted to try it for himself, so I showed him how to hold his arms and hands, etc. Nothing happened, which has always been the case with him. When I put my hands on the planchette it moved within just a few minutes and my husband said, "You're doing that!" I said, "I know that! But I'm not moving it intentionally. If I was, do you think I would be sitting here wasting my time?"

So we decided we'd try another experiment. This time we had him sit across the room and open the magazine randomly and stare at something. Voice 2 claimed it needed my eyes to see, so I asked if it could just as easily use my husband's eyes to see, and it said yes. So we had him focus on one particular picture. We allowed about 3 minutes for this.

It messed around and then it spelled out RED. I asked my husband, "Red?" No. It was a piece of celery.

There was a woman's face in the background but in fact her lipstick was pale and there was not even a tiny speck of red on the page. I suggested maybe he could find a simpler picture.

Voice 2 then spelled out: CANNOT BE TESTED.

Of course. What else would it say? My husband chose a different picture and we decided to do one more round. Voice 2 again spelled out: DO NOT TEST.

We said we were testing anyway, that the voice had no credibility if it couldn't be tested this way. It hemmed and hawed and said SHOULD TRUST. Finally it spelled out: DRESS.

I looked at my husband. Dress? He showed me a picture of a bowl of soup that pretty much took up the entire page. At this point my husband was exasperated and threw down the magazine. "Even a moron spirit could see a giant bowl of soup," he said.

That was the end of my experiment.

I still maintain that Voice 2 did not feel like it was controlled by me or even coming from me. I suppose it is the same with James Randi's dowsers, a group he has said in the past that tends to be very sincere.

Critics say that the planchette responds to your expectations. So if you ask a question and you think, "I bet it's going to say blue," the planchette will spell out blue. But that's not what happens at all. The planchette (Voice 2) seems to have a mind of its own. That really is what makes it seem so odd. That's the part that I find interesting.

One thing I did realize last night is that the ideomotor effect motion must be coming from the forearms or even higher up in the upper arms or back. So if you move the mouse on your desk, you feel it in the muscles of your fingers, hand, and wrist but when you move the planchette it is more like someone is pushing your whole arm around. Your fingers will start to feel cold and heavy from lack of use as the planchette moves. We're not used to moving our fingers that way, so that also could partly account for the sensation that something mysterious is happening.

Even my own mind, as Voice 2, came up with lame woo excuses, saying DO NOT TEST, CANNOT TEST and SHOULD TRUST. It would eventually resort to guessing, though, and it seemed at first to think it could somehow succeed.

I consider myself practical and pragmatic, and in hindsight I am a little disappointed that I have this area of my brain that feels like interacting with a 5-year-old. I would feel a lot better if Voice 2 had come up with a more believable excuse or at least had the dignity to refuse to guess.

Better yet, I would like to think I am so intellectually honest that this other part of my brain would have come right out and said, right from the start: "I am a part of your own brain and therefore cannot possibly see that magazine over there." And spelled it correctly, too.

 

[Cainkane1]

After reading some of the replies to my threads dealing with this paranormal issue, I came across the following from Cuddles:



Good point.

Since the blindfold thing doesn't work, for the reason mentioned above, what we could use is a new wave of different experiments to test this game. This is going to be a brain storming thread so I'll start out with some suggestions. If anyone can suggest any improvements, I would greatly appreciate it if you would do it in the following order:

I start out with Experiment #1:

Place a Bible on top of the Ouija Board and leave them in a locked room overnight. Analyze the results in the morning.

Then you come along with another one:

Experiment #2:

Write down a series of numbers on a piece of paper and ask the players, who are going to ask the game, what you have written down.

Then, Experiment #3...#4...#8 etc.


For any improvements, reminders, suggestions say:

Suggestions/improvements/reminders etc. for Experiment #2:

Make sure to exclude yourself out of the next session. Do not give out any hints as to what you have written down to the other players (I know that's obvious, but it's just an example).

Then Suggestions/improvements/Reminders etc for Experiment #X

I want a consistent format so that we can easily refer back to any Experiment number.


Lets begin.

P.S: I know that I have made quite a few threads about this topic, but I think that this might be much more effective than writing some essay on some blog that might get less than 100 views within 3 months.

I'd place pornography on the board and see what happened the next morning.

 

[CORed]

Why would the spirits be confused at being asked to add up some dice in a different part of the room?

They're bad at math.

 

[Ladewig]

So I tried my own suggestion last night. Dusted off the board and sat down with it alone. I had a magazine that I hadn't read, opened it randomly and set it on top of a tall dresser, open to whatever was on that page.

From where I was sitting I couldn't see the page. The planchette moved around freely as always, once again giving me the sensation that I was in communication with someone else. I am going to call it Voice 2.

Voice 2 claimed to be able to see the magazine and the picture and willing to participate in my experiment. When asked to actually identify the picture, though, it hemmed and hawed a little. It then spelled out TEB. It was then adamant that TEB was related to the magazine page. I asked if it wanted to elaborate or change it's answer, last chance, and it said no. I got up and went across the room to check and the picture was a SlimFast advertisement. Model, SlimFast products, some writing about SlimFast. No TEB.

My husband came home with the kids then. Being a bit skeptical, he wanted to try it for himself, so I showed him how to hold his arms and hands, etc. Nothing happened, which has always been the case with him. When I put my hands on the planchette it moved within just a few minutes and my husband said, "You're doing that!" I said, "I know that! But I'm not moving it intentionally. If I was, do you think I would be sitting here wasting my time?"

So we decided we'd try another experiment. This time we had him sit across the room and open the magazine randomly and stare at something. Voice 2 claimed it needed my eyes to see, so I asked if it could just as easily use my husband's eyes to see, and it said yes. So we had him focus on one particular picture. We allowed about 3 minutes for this.

It messed around and then it spelled out RED. I asked my husband, "Red?" No. It was a piece of celery.

There was a woman's face in the background but in fact her lipstick was pale and there was not even a tiny speck of red on the page. I suggested maybe he could find a simpler picture.

Voice 2 then spelled out: CANNOT BE TESTED.

Of course. What else would it say? My husband chose a different picture and we decided to do one more round. Voice 2 again spelled out: DO NOT TEST.

We said we were testing anyway, that the voice had no credibility if it couldn't be tested this way. It hemmed and hawed and said SHOULD TRUST. Finally it spelled out: DRESS.

I looked at my husband. Dress? He showed me a picture of a bowl of soup that pretty much took up the entire page. At this point my husband was exasperated and threw down the magazine. "Even a moron spirit could see a giant bowl of soup," he said.

That was the end of my experiment.

I still maintain that Voice 2 did not feel like it was controlled by me or even coming from me. I suppose it is the same with James Randi's dowsers, a group he has said in the past that tends to be very sincere.

Critics say that the planchette responds to your expectations. So if you ask a question and you think, "I bet it's going to say blue," the planchette will spell out blue. But that's not what happens at all. The planchette (Voice 2) seems to have a mind of its own. That really is what makes it seem so odd. That's the part that I find interesting.

One thing I did realize last night is that the ideomotor effect motion must be coming from the forearms or even higher up in the upper arms or back. So if you move the mouse on your desk, you feel it in the muscles of your fingers, hand, and wrist but when you move the planchette it is more like someone is pushing your whole arm around. Your fingers will start to feel cold and heavy from lack of use as the planchette moves. We're not used to moving our fingers that way, so that also could partly account for the sensation that something mysterious is happening.

Even my own mind, as Voice 2, came up with lame woo excuses, saying DO NOT TEST, CANNOT TEST and SHOULD TRUST. It would eventually resort to guessing, though, and it seemed at first to think it could somehow succeed.

I consider myself practical and pragmatic, and in hindsight I am a little disappointed that I have this area of my brain that feels like interacting with a 5-year-old. I would feel a lot better if Voice 2 had come up with a more believable excuse or at least had the dignity to refuse to guess.

Better yet, I would like to think I am so intellectually honest that this other part of my brain would have come right out and said, right from the start: "I am a part of your own brain and therefore cannot possibly see that magazine over there." And spelled it correctly, too.

I can empathize with you and while it is probably correct to say that the experiment was a failure related to how knowledgeable the spirits (or one's own unconscious) might be, I do consider the experiment to be a success in a very specific way.

I have always been fascinated on how well the human mind can compartmentalize itself. I first noticed it several years ago when I was trying to break a bad habit. I found myself driving to a place to engage in this habit, but I was able to keep a running dialogue in my mind convincing myself that I was not driving to this particular location. I was doing something and was successfully convincing myself that I was not doing it. I think something similar is happening in your experiment. Part of your mind is saying that you are not consciously moving the planchette, but part of your conscious mind is moving the planchette.

Another way of looking at it is to consider the line between conscious and unconscious to be very blurry. Thus, a semi-conscious part of your mind might be moving the planchette.

The sincere dowsers are a perfect examples of the effect.

The human mind and its quirks are fascinating topics.

 

[Explorer]

Critics say that the planchette responds to your expectations. So if you ask a question and you think, "I bet it's going to say blue," the planchette will spell out blue. But that's not what happens at all. The planchette (Voice 2) seems to have a mind of its own. That really is what makes it seem so odd. That's the part that I find interesting.

In my experience, I have found that subject matter of particular interest or importance to the experimeter, usually comes across, not specific words. On the contrary, if I predict a word before the spelling out is complete, the board has corrected errors in my predictions very rapidly and forcefully (a rush to the option "NO", then the correction). Mis-interpretations of messages have also been clarified, which I find interesting.

It does indeed seem to have a mind of its own, and seems to place importance on certain issues and meanings which apparently, have no specific personal significance for me.

In one experiment, I tried to test my equivalent of Voice 2, in the following way. Voice 2. was claiming to have lived in the mid-seventeenth century, and had a local friend called MARGARET TRENTHAM. I was conducting the experiment when living in Nottinghamshire, and TRENTHAM was a probably a good bet for a surname in that county (TRENTHAM interpreted as a hamlet on the River Trent). Following my question, Voice 2 said that her friend was buried in the local churchyard across the the road from my house, and that the grave was still visible today.

The next day I walked the churchyard visiting and examining all the gravestones, something I had never done before. There were plenty of eighteenth and nineteenth century graves, but only two or three of the seventeenth century. They were there with a discernible date but sadly, the name inscriptions had been eroded so badly that they were unreadable. Perhaps I should have checked the Parish records as a follow up, but in those days I wasn't perhaps so thorough and determined as I would be now.

 

[Ladewig]

In one experiment, I tried to test my equivalent of Voice 2, in the following way. Voice 2. was claiming to have lived in the mid-seventeenth century, and had a local friend called MARGARET TRENTHAM. I was conducting the experiment when living in Nottinghamshire, and TRENTHAM was a probably a good bet for a surname in that county (TRENTHAM interpreted as a hamlet on the River Trent). Following my question, Voice 2 said that her friend was buried in the local churchyard across the the road from my house, and that the grave was still visible today.

Channeling the old seventeenth-century spirit. A very popular time for dead spirits.

Q1) when did Voice 2 learn to spell? I ask because not that many folks in the 1600's knew how to read and write. Not only does Voice 2 have a vocabulary surprisingly equal to your own, Voice 2 even spells using 21st century conventions. Remarkable.

Q2) have you ever asked V2 things that you would not know but someone in the seventeenth century would know? What was the typical diet? How did people wipe their asses? How was the local government set up? How were thieves punished? What superstitions were popular?

 

[dafydd]

Channeling the old seventeenth-century spirit. A very popular time for dead spirits.

Q1) when did Voice 2 learn to spell? I ask because not that many folks in the 1600's knew how to read and write. Not only does Voice 2 have a vocabulary surprisingly equal to your own, Voice 2 even spells using 21st century conventions. Remarkable.

Q2) have you ever asked V2 things that you would not know but someone in the seventeenth century would know? What was the typical diet? How did people wipe their asses? How was the local government set up? How were thieves punished? What superstitions were popular?

When I was a teenager I had a friend who liked messing around with a Ouija board. We got in touch with Hitler once, and he spoke English with some Welsh slang thrown in. Amazing.

 

[ExMinister]

Channeling the old seventeenth-century spirit. A very popular time for dead spirits.

Q1) when did Voice 2 learn to spell? I ask because not that many folks in the 1600's knew how to read and write. Not only does Voice 2 have a vocabulary surprisingly equal to your own, Voice 2 even spells using 21st century conventions. Remarkable.

Q2) have you ever asked V2 things that you would not know but someone in the seventeenth century would know? What was the typical diet? How did people wipe their asses? How was the local government set up? How were thieves punished? What superstitions were popular?

At least with these the answers are verifiably right or wrong and not easily guessed.

Even so, it's possible to have picked up this information in a historical book or movie and forgotten it.

Explorer, it's probably best that the names were unreadable. If the name was a common one the odds are good you might have stumbled on it by coincidence.

 

[ExMinister]

I can empathize with you and while it is probably correct to say that the experiment was a failure related to how knowledgeable the spirits (or one's own unconscious) might be, I do consider the experiment to be a success in a very specific way.

I have always been fascinated on how well the human mind can compartmentalize itself. I first noticed it several years ago when I was trying to break a bad habit. I found myself driving to a place to engage in this habit, but I was able to keep a running dialogue in my mind convincing myself that I was not driving to this particular location. I was doing something and was successfully convincing myself that I was not doing it. I think something similar is happening in your experiment. Part of your mind is saying that you are not consciously moving the planchette, but part of your conscious mind is moving the planchette.

Another way of looking at it is to consider the line between conscious and unconscious to be very blurry. Thus, a semi-conscious part of your mind might be moving the planchette.

The sincere dowsers are a perfect examples of the effect.

The human mind and its quirks are fascinating topics.

Reading a book this morning by neurologist Kevin Nelson and thought of your comments on the blurring of the line between conscious and unconscious.

He is saying that consciousness is not only blind to most brain activity, it's even blind to its own brain process, and then later he says: "Neurology can coolly discount the 'realer than real' of any experience. And what makes it easy is the brain's seemingly limitless ability to create convincing illusions and confabulations that appear to be fact."

 

[Ladewig]

Purely as an academic exercise from this point on.

At least with these the answers are verifiably right or wrong and not easily guessed.

Even so, it's possible to have picked up this information in a historical book or movie and forgotten it [although the sub-conscious may remember it]..

Yes. That is possible. But it is more than likely you didn't pick up the correct answers to those questions (especially from movies (which are notoriously inaccurate when portraying olden days)). The point is that I am doubtful that V2 really did live 350 years ago.

And, as you emphasized in your last post, that doesn't mean the Ouija board cannot produce very interesting results.

 

[Explorer]

Channeling the old seventeenth-century spirit. A very popular time for dead spirits.

Q1) when did Voice 2 learn to spell? I ask because not that many folks in the 1600's knew how to read and write. Not only does Voice 2 have a vocabulary surprisingly equal to your own, Voice 2 even spells using 21st century conventions. Remarkable.

Q2) have you ever asked V2 things that you would not know but someone in the seventeenth century would know? What was the typical diet? How did people wipe their asses? How was the local government set up? How were thieves punished? What superstitions were popular?

Answers to your questions:

When did Voice 2 learn to spell? When I did, at the age of six.

What was the typical diet? Porridge and/or boiled egg with bread soldiers.

How did people wipe their asses? With a grooming cloth, but you had to tether them to a post first and give them a carrot to distract.

How were thieves punished? They were forced to groom asses.

What superstitions were popular? Communicating with people from the future using an oak barrel and an upturned pewter tankard.

No seriously, I would have thought that by reading all my previous posts, you would know by now that I believe, like Exminister, the effect is derived from one's own brain, and that nothing supernatural is going on.

 

[Ladewig]

Answers to your questions:

When did Voice 2 learn to spell? When I did, at the age of six.

What was the typical diet? Porridge and/or boiled egg with bread soldiers.

How did people wipe their asses? With a grooming cloth, but you had to tether them to a post first and give them a carrot to distract.

How were thieves punished? They were forced to groom asses.

What superstitions were popular? Communicating with people from the future using an oak barrel and an upturned pewter tankard.

No seriously, I would have thought that by reading all my previous posts, you would know by now that I believe, like Exminister, the effect is derived from one's own brain, and that nothing supernatural is going on.

Yes! That is why I labeled the post as merely an academic exercise rather than a serious concern that needed to be addressed.

 

[Explorer]

Yes! That is why I labeled the post as merely an academic exercise rather than a serious concern that needed to be addressed.

Oops! My apologies Ladewig, I am a bit slow on the uptake these days, sorry I missed that. Did you like my jokes though? Sort of mid-Atlantic banter on words.

 

[Learjet]

And what makes it easy is the brain's seemingly limitless ability to create convincing illusions and confabulations that appear to be fact."

In other words, our subconscious lies.

That was an interesting experiment with the newspaper. I'm not sure where to go from here.

I face the same problem talking to dream characters in lucid dreams. Any answers are untrustworthy at best.

This may sound rather silly, but I actually feel hurt that I may lie to myself. Or even give myself unpleasant dreams.

Funny story. One night I dreamed that thieves came and stole the wheels off my car. I then became lucid while still asleep. Knowing that my subconscious gave me that dream, I asked why it would torment me so. (My subconscious appeared as a dream person) My subconscious, perhaps as an act of remorse, then ordered the dream character thieves to put the wheels back, which they did. Not that they needed to as at this time I was fully lucid and aware that it was just a dream and that whatever happened didn't really matter. Perhaps it was the thought that counts.

I can just imagine getting into a fight with myself using a Ouija board!

 

[Ladewig]

Oops! My apologies Ladewig, I am a bit slow on the uptake these days, sorry I missed that. Did you like my jokes though? Sort of mid-Atlantic banter on words.

I will also apologize for not making my meaning clearer in my opening line. I can see how it was too short to accurately convey what I meant.

yes on jokes.

 

[Ladewig]

In other words, our subconscious lies.

My take on it [and I have no actual evidence] is that
part of the subconscious lies,
part of the conscious lies, and
part of the subconscious does not even understand the difference between truth and falsehood.