Suddenly, A Flat Earther Appears!

[Tolls]

Fairytale Gravity?

Well, this thread was entertaining but now it's just too silly.

Definitely jumped the shark.

I see he's galloped away from both the bullet dropping part and the air pressure part as well.

Brave Sir Daniel ran away
Bravely ran away away
When gravity reared its ugly head
He bravely turned his tail and fled
Yes, brave Sir Daniel turned about
And gallantly he chickened out

Bravely taking to his feet
He beat a very brave retreat
Bravest of the brave, Sir Daniel!

(Apologies to the Pythons)

And for his previous disbelief in a flat earth (and heliocentrism for that matter):
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11160607#post11160607

 

[Andy_Ross]

 

[MikeG]

Definitely jumped the shark.........
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11160607#post11160607

Let me just bring that here, for all to see:

Do you believe that the earth is flat?

......No, but Daniel Shenton ("evolutionist")...Head of the Flat Earth Society does. ........

So all the way back in March this year, the earth wasn't flat in Danielscience. In the intervening 4 months, Danielscience has reversed its position. I wonder what experiments (remember, that's the only thing that Danilescience recognises as science) have been done in that time which have informed this immense volte face?

 

[Craig4]

What if a Plane with a typical cruising speed of 500 mph flying from LA to New York took off in a Westerly Direction then turned East; on a "Spinning Ball" 'allegedly' rotating 1000 mph... would the plane reach New York before it got Bum Rushed by New York?

regards

What would happen if that same plane, say it could be refueled in air, took off from LA, and kept going west. Assuming no maintenance issues, if it traveled west for as long as it could where would it end up?

 

[Erock]

Oh brother

Not True, eh? So a "Na'ahh" is basically your position... along with a 'cherry on top' mind numbing commentary?

As pointed out to you, simply going out on a summer day shows this

This is tantamount to saying Peanut Butter and Jelly Sandwiches made from Peanut Butter and Jelly are NOT TRUE.

You cannot answer the simple but obvious question.

It's very simple, if the Sun is at zenith 2,500 miles up and 6,000 miles away it should be setting, it cannot possibly be a flat Earth. Your inability to understand this is not my problem. Answer properly!

Well let's take a look (42:00-46:30)...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxtKlZihEB4

Sunlight shrinks? Is that your explanation for how the Sun goes the entire distance of the sky without ever changing size and disappears when according to the figures you quoted it should be at 21 odd degrees? There was nothing in that video that explained why the Sun sets.

Thanks for that WaterMelon sized Hang'n Curve Ball . Got any more I can Jack YARD!!!

This isn't a "who can post the dumbest video contest"

In your own words, explain why the Sun does not change size at all as it "disappears". Then explain why it disappears at all. Dumb one word answers like "perspective" don't wash.

Scientific Observations, eh? How do they differ from just ole run-o-the-mill observations...? These...

You dodged another issue Answer properly please.

Perspective.

Elaborate please - that is another dodge. Why do people in Australia see the Moon phases inverted to those in England. Please do not draw me some infantile diagram of the Moon on a ceiling, because I will just draw one slamdunk diagram of the Moon rising and an observer following it all around the "flat earth" at the same speed.

Ahh no, that was a response to another mind numbing claim; here's what I worked out...

Yeah, once the applause dies down, show WHY it loses x amount per year. That would be where you identify the density of atmosphere at that altitude, the drag and how that effects its speed. People will be stunned when you answer this. They will not be stunned when you draw figures from your backside without showing why

No, gravity according to me is a Demonstrable Fairytale ....oh brother

According to us, gravity, according to you density and electric dipoles. Now elaborate and explain why a man up a mountain where it is significantly less dense cannot jump significantly higher. Say Mexico City and "oh brother" isn't an answer but is in fact yet another dodge.

What causes tightly packed atoms/molecules ?? Can you please stop wasting my time?

And yet another dodge.

Gravity causes the pressure which is related to the density. Kindly furnish your captivated audience with your scientific explanation for how density and electrickery/dipole flabberjabbery keeps everything on the surface and makes everything fall at 9.8m s^2.

regards

When I said "We both know why" you cannot answer any of this properly, it is because there is no explanation for any of it that fits in with flat earth theory.

Stars rotate opposite directions in each hemisphere - explain.
Brazil facing south and Australia facing south both see the Southern cross at the same time, yet the flatmap^TM says that would be impossible - explain.


I look forward to less hyperbole, zero "oh brothers", significantly less indignant piffle and avoidance and concise full sensible answers. As if.

Regards

 

[smartcooky]

I bet you can't weave aphids into your Theory of Wrong Everything.

Much practice you still need.

What about barnacles then?

Perhaps he could weave barnacles into his fairy story?

 

[thedopefishlives]

Failed to answer what??

Can you please Explain.... let's say someone in California @ High Noon has the Sun pretty close to directly overhead but someone let's say on the East Coast 3100 miles away (3hr time difference) has an Elevation Angle to the Sun of 45 Degrees (ROTFLOL) ??

Can you put that into a² + b² = c² scenario and solve...?

Can't wait to see this....?

regards

You're assuming a flat Earth again. The geometry changes for a curved Earth. Try working out the circular geometry for your problem - as you should, if you are testing the theory of a circular Earth - and you'll get a much different result. I actually started working on this because I'm bored at work, but I bet you'll either ignore this post entirely, or respond with some twaddle about it "being as simple as Pythagoras".

 

[Foster Zygote]

Mathematics are the Kryptonite of conspiracy theories.

If the sun is 2500 miles above the earth's surface, then from 6000 miles away from the point directly beneath the sun it will appear at 22.62° above the horizon and be 6500 miles distant from the observer. So how big is the sun? The angular size of the sun varies between 0.545° and 0.5267°. Let's take the average of 0.53585° and round it to 0.536°. Now if we are at a position to observe the sun at the local zenith, directly under it, and we have the values of 0.536° for angular size and 2500 for distance, then we can determine that its actual size is 23.4 miles in diameter. But someone standing 6000 miles from the point directly under the sun should see the sun's angular size shrink to 0.206°, a 61% reduction. But, of course, everyone on earth sees the same angular size for the sun at the same time. (Sure, technically someone at the point closest to the sun sees it slightly larger than someone standing at the terminator, but the difference in distance is only about 0.004%.) For the observer 6500 miles from the sun to see it with an angular size of 0.536°, it would have to be 60.8 miles in diameter. The zetetic model just doesn't work.

Then there's the problem of the moon. Everyone on earth sees virtually the same face of the moon at the same time. Two people seeing the moon from opposite sides of the earth at the same time will only see a rotational difference of 1.9° between them. But for the moon to be closer to the earth's surface than 2500 miles, let's say 2490 miles, Then the difference in angle for two observers standing 6000 miles apart would be a whopping 67.5°! From the earth, we'd be able to see most of the moon's surface, rather than slightly over half of it. And the moon would still have the same problems as the sun in regard to angular size.

And there's still the problem of what compass heading people see the sun at from various locations, and the apparent motion of the stars from the southern hemisphere.

Sorry, but the zetetic cosmology is just a gnostic cult for people who can't do basic geometry, but want to think they're among the world's cleverest thinkers.

 

[Hans]

Mathematics are the Kryptonite of conspiracy theories.

If the sun is 2500 miles above the earth's surface, then from 6000 miles away from the point directly beneath the sun it will appear at 22.62° above the horizon and be 6500 miles distant from the observer. So how big is the sun? The angular size of the sun varies between 0.545° and 0.5267°. Let's take the average of 0.53585° and round it to 0.536°. Now if we are at a position to observe the sun at the local zenith, directly under it, and we have the values of 0.536° for angular size and 2500 for distance, then we can determine that its actual size is 23.4 miles in diameter. But someone standing 6000 miles from the point directly under the sun should see the sun's angular size shrink to 0.206°, a 61% reduction. But, of course, everyone on earth sees the same angular size for the sun at the same time. (Sure, technically someone at the point closest to the sun sees it slightly larger than someone standing at the terminator, but the difference in distance is only about 0.004%.) For the observer 6500 miles from the sun to see it with an angular size of 0.536°, it would have to be 60.8 miles in diameter. The zetetic model just doesn't work.

Then there's the problem of the moon. Everyone on earth sees virtually the same face of the moon at the same time. Two people seeing the moon from opposite sides of the earth at the same time will only see a rotational difference of 1.9° between them. But for the moon to be closer to the earth's surface than 2500 miles, let's say 2490 miles, Then the difference in angle for two observers standing 6000 miles apart would be a whopping 67.5°! From the earth, we'd be able to see most of the moon's surface, rather than slightly over half of it. And the moon would still have the same problems as the sun in regard to angular size.

And there's still the problem of what compass heading people see the sun at from various locations, and the apparent motion of the stars from the southern hemisphere.

Sorry, but the zetetic cosmology is just a gnostic cult for people who can't do basic geometry, but want to think they're among the world's cleverest thinkers.

Thanks for including the moon it was that contradiction/error I was going to point out to our FE but he refused to state where the moon was- and conceded the point.

Well done!

 

[Daniel]

Because he fails to understand that the "spinning ball" is taking the atmosphere with it.

Yet a Mosquito with very little effort can fly contrary to the 'alleged' fairytale SPIN.

What is the mechanism for dragging the atmosphere...Velcro?


So 'according to you', we live on a "Spinning Ball" rotating @ 1,000 mph, revolving around the sun @ 66,600 mph (axis 66.6 degrees from the ecliptic), with the sun traveling @ 500,000 mph around the Milky Way---which is itself moving @ 670,000,000 mph .....?

That's a grand total of 670,568,000 miles per hour in several different directions, simultaneously eek. In one year, the Earth traverses over 5.8 TRILLION MILES!!! All this without a microscopic remnant of Empirical Evidence with nobody ONCE EVER seeing, feeling, measuring any such nonsense.

Furthermore Polaris (not moving a cm in the sky for thousands of years) would have to be MIRRORING EXACTLY the Earth's several different Paths and Speeds /Perfectly.

This is so moronic, I could barely write this!

If you believe this buffoonery, I have a Bridge made out of GOLD beside Pristine beach-front properties I have to get rid of quick!!


regards

 

[Daniel]

What would happen if that same plane, say it could be refueled in air, took off from LA, and kept going west. Assuming no maintenance issues, if it traveled west for as long as it could where would it end up?

Right back where it started.

regards

 

[thedopefishlives]

Alright, I was bored, so here's my scenario: Near noon on September 30, 2016, the sun will be almost literally directly overhead in Manaus, Brazil. Meanwhile, in Lagos, Nigeria, which is 7126.455 km away, the sun is at an angle of 25.98 degrees above the horizon. By doing the computations using these sets of figures, I arrived at a geometric distance to the Sun of 149,478,571.81 km. Daniel will probably laugh and say I made that up just to arrive at a "correct" result, but the calculation is pretty straightforward, albeit non-trivial. Here's a hint: Take into account that on a spherical Earth, the distance between two points is not a straight line.

 

[frenat]

Alright, I was bored, so here's my scenario: Near noon on September 30, 2016, the sun will be almost literally directly overhead in Manaus, Brazil. Meanwhile, in Lagos, Nigeria, which is 7126.455 km away, the sun is at an angle of 25.98 degrees above the horizon. By doing the computations using these sets of figures, I arrived at a geometric distance to the Sun of 149,478,571.81 km. Daniel will probably laugh and say I made that up just to arrive at a "correct" result, but the calculation is pretty straightforward, albeit non-trivial. Here's a hint: Take into account that on a spherical Earth, the distance between two points is not a straight line.

the significance of this is that if you choose any two points and do the math as on a sphere then you get the same answer each time. If you do the math as if flat then you get different answers for the distance to the Sun when you choose different locations. Flat doesn't work.

 

[Daniel]

As pointed out to you, simply going out on a summer day shows this

Sure, go ahead...?

It's very simple, if the Sun is at zenith 2,500 miles up and 6,000 miles away it should be setting, it cannot possibly be a flat Earth.

And ahhh, why not....?

Sunlight shrinks?

Sunlight @ Sunset...if on a "Spinning Ball" should uniformly disappear across the Horizon. Look up "Terminator".

If the Earth is Flat and the Sun is small (Diameter ~ 32 Miles) and rotates around the Flat Earth, THEN...Sunlight @ Sunset WILL NOT uniformly disappear.

It does not uniformly disappear; Ergo the Earth is Flat and the Sun is small and rotates around the Flat Earth. Simple.

Is that your explanation for how the Sun goes the entire distance of the sky without ever changing size

Factually Incorrect...

From 21:08 - 26:500: www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICPqawyQSwA

There was nothing in that video that explained why the Sun sets.

What on Earth?

In your own words, explain why the Sun does not change size at all

In my own words, eh?

It does change size (SEE: Above). It changes size because of "Perspective".

In 'your' own words, please explain...

If there is no physical barrier between Earth's Atmosphere and Space, which there isn't...

"There's no clear boundary between Earth's atmosphere and space, says Dr Kevin Pimbblet, lecturer in astrophysics at the University of Queensland."
www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2010/01/13/2791372.htm

"There is no definite boundary between the atmosphere and outer space."
www.cs.mcgill.ca/~rwest/link-suggestion/wpcd_2008-09_augmented/wp/e/Earth%2527s_atmosphere.htm

"Some experts believe a definition of the boundary of space is impossible to create. Hans Haubold, senior program office at the UN Office for Outer Space Affairs (OOSA), noted that the atmosphere is too “fuzzy for a physics-based definition to ever be established” (Kois 2004)."
commons.erau.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1052&context=stm


Ergo...

How can you have a Vacuum (Space) attached to a Non-Vacuum (Earth) and still retain the Properties of a Vacuum and a Non-Vacuum in the same system, simultaneously....?

Can you explain this in a Law of Entropy context?

If there's a "Non Perfect" Vacuum surrounding the Earth's Atmospheric layers as we are 'TOLD', then there should be a colossal cascading chain of envelopment from the Exosphere to Thermosphere to Mesosphere down to your feet like dominoes faster than you can say "ENTROPY" until equilibrium is reached. Hard Stop!

So @ a minimum, How are you still breathing...?

Dumb one word answers like "perspective" don't wash.

It's dumb, eh? Go to Vegas and look down a 150 yard hallway, does the: ceiling, floor, walls all converge to a point @ eye level where you can't see beyond.
Next up: How to make a sandwich.

Moon rising

Does the Moon Reflect the Sun's Light...?

According to us, gravity

You could have substituted 'duccolslopelgerts' here it would have had the same result. You must have "DODGED" this: www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11365069&postcount=203

What is 'gravity'....? What is the CAUSE of 'gravity'....?

Gravity causes the pressure which is related to the density.

Sure. Begging The Question (Fallacy): What is 'gravity'....? What is the CAUSE of 'gravity'....?

Kindly furnish your captivated audience with your scientific explanation for...

Kindly furnish your Scientific Explanation for fairytale 'gravity'...?

...everything fall at 9.8m s^2.

So Feathers and Helium fall @ 9.8m s², eh?

Stars rotate opposite directions in each hemisphere - explain.

Begging The Question (Fallacy). Really?? Says who?

Brazil facing south and Australia facing south both see the Southern cross at the same time, yet the flatmap^TM says that would be impossible - explain.

Straw Man Fallacy: Ahhh, I never posted "A Map". Please Explain ?


regards

 

[Tale]

Furthermore Polaris (not moving a cm in the sky for thousands of years)

Polaris does move in the sky.

 

[AcesHigh]

Yet a Mosquito with very little effort can fly contrary to the 'alleged' fairytale SPIN.

obviously, exactly because the atmosphere is spinning together with the planet.

gee, how thick can people be? If the atmosphere is rotating with the planet, every airborne creature is too.


do you want to use your mosquito example? Imagine a high-speed train... 300 km/h. And a mosquito inside. Can the mosquito fly around inside the train in a normal way, as if it was inside a house? Or will the mosquito fly at 300 km/h against the back of the train and be smashed against the back of the train?

btw, for an observer outside the train, the mosquito will be travelling at 300 km/h + a few km/h if the mosquito is flying inside the train towards the front, - a few km/h if the mosquito is flying inside the train towards the back.


gee Daniel. This is so simple. I can´t believe you NEVER saw a flying insect (mosquito, a fly, whatever) inside a car!!!!

What is the mechanism for dragging the atmosphere...Velcro?

what's the mechanism to drag the atmosphere inside a car and thus the mosquito alongside? On the Earth it's gravity that keeps atmosphere being pulled towards the center of the planet and thus yes, creates friction with the air and land.

I mean, you know air has friction right? Did you ever saw a tornado?


Now... the problem with your (lack of) logic is that you imagine that if the Earth starts moving and spinning right now, from a stationary position, there would be HUGE HURRICANES, because air is not attached to Earth by velcro.

Yes, you are right. If the Earth was stopped and SUDDENLY started moving, there would indeed be MASSIVE hurricanes of thousands of km per hour.

More than that, Earth's structure itself would break apart depending on the acceleration with which it started moving and spinning. Earth's crust would probably break apart, the mantle sprouting out, the shape of the planet would get deformed for centuries before gravity re-established hidrostatic equilibrium.



The problem here is that Earth did NOT suddenly started moving.

It has been moving and spinning for 4 billion years. And before that, in the proto gas cloud that formed the Solar System, the gas was also already spinning on the same direction as the planets are today. When planets started forming, all that gas and peebles were getting together and mostly spinning around a central gravitational axis that is the same it´s today.


So the atmosphere has been spinning with everything else since the beginnings of the planet. And it never stopped because of friction caused by gravity pulling it towards solid and liquid masses as well as because of the huge inertia of trillions of kilograms of all that atmosphere.

That's a grand total of 670,568,000 miles per hour in several different directions, simultaneously eek. In one year, the Earth traverses over 5.8 TRILLION MILES!!! All this without a microscopic remnant of Empirical Evidence with nobody ONCE EVER seeing, feeling, measuring any such nonsense.

there are tons of evidence. All of which you deny because of your religious dogma.

Furthermore Polaris (not moving a cm in the sky for thousands of years) would have to be MIRRORING EXACTLY the Earth's several different Paths and Speeds /Perfectly.

furthermore the Southern Cross can´t be seen from Australia and Brazil, on a Flat Earth, at the SAME TIME while looking South from each country.

And yet, it can be seen looking south from both countries at the same time. Proof the Earth is a sphere.






now, you should try to explain why you were denying the Earth was flat just 4 months ago.

 

[AcesHigh]

Begging The Question (Fallacy). Really?? Says who?

I say it. When looking south, the stars appear to rotate clockwise here in Southern Brazil around a central point somewhere around Sigma Octantis (our equivalent of the Northern Star)

Straw Man Fallacy: Ahhh, I never posted "A Map". Please Explain ?


regards

you can´t post a map because any map would easily be debunked.

you don´t need to post a map. Any Flat Earth model fails in several different levels, no matter how you arrange a map.

 

[Elagabalus]

I think it's pretty obvious what Daniel is doing when he pops up in a thread. The whole argument from ignorance stance, rejection of evidence through misapplication of logical fallacies, selective blindness, plus a sprinkling of Walter Mitty.

Needs more polish, though: "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight".

Actually, don't bring a knife or a gun to the campfire if I have a propane tank at the ready ....

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308258

 

[Hans]

Polaris does move in the sky.

Now, now don't confuse him with important details like that. Certainly don't mention precession!

lol

 

[jimbob]

Why are you arguing with someone who is either trolling or is trying hard to be stupid.

I am vaguely intrigued as to how a Flat Earther explains the apparent Sunwise movement of the Sun in the Northern Hemisphere and the apparent Widdershins movement of the Sun in the Southern Hemisphere (outside the Tropics, where this can change during a, and where it will be going overhead at some time).


I am also intrigued about the different constellations that one can see from Britain and New Zealand, to pick two countries where I have looked up and seen the night sky.