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Stupid Christian Article on Evolution

'We' are not dogs. Humans have very few behavioral patterns that are genetic. Dogs do. Avicenna was not speaking about behavioral patterns in other species, but in us. And by 'us', I mean 'humans'.

I thought she was referring to all creatures, hence my reference to dogs and animal instincts.

It's an interesting question for humans. Our minds are advanced and so we are a little different (evidence for special creation....:p).

But I think some do think some behavior is hard-wired. Is sexual preference hard-wired genetically, for example, is emerges through culture. That's actually not so clear cut as some would suggest.
 
There's no reason why it shouldn't have happened many times and in different ways - we still can't assess the probabilities, and the chemistry is still uncertain; but if it did happen in different ways, all but the form we know today probably died out very early - because we see no trace of others. It's possible that it happened almost exactly the same way more than once (e.g. the same DNA base pairs, etc.), but if so, one version soon outcompeted the others, because as far back as we can tell, common chemistry is used for many basic functions, and it is astronomically unlikely that the complexity of chemistry in those functions and the unique developmental sequences giving rise to them could occur identically in separate lineages.

Really for all we know based on evolution, aliens planted life here.
 
No, they were surprised to find genetic sequences corresponding to gene products that regulate the early development of neural systems in vertebrates. These genetic sequences are found in humans, but only because humans are vertebrates themselves.

The gene sequences have nothing to do with the specifically human nervous system, nor with anything corresponding to specifically human nerve function.

For example, one of the vertebrate sequences found was Tumorhead. The Tumorhead sequence is generally studied by examining the genome of the model organism Xenopus laevis, which is a species of sub-Saharan frog, to the point where the Tumorhead sequence is usually cited in papers as a specifically Xenopus sequence. And, if you look at the full citations of genes that were identified in the paper, you'll see that the paper's authors do the same thing, labeling the Tumorhead gene sequence as a Xenopus sequence.

Would you describe the sub-Saharan frog Xenopus laevis as having a human nervous system or a human nerve function, randman?

And, in any case, while the Tumorhead sequence found in Xenopus generally governs the differentiation of neural cells into specialized nervous system functions in a vertebrate organism during embryonic development, an overexpression of Tumorhead proteins can actually suppress neural differentiation without affecting neural development as a whole (see this study).

So, the presence of Tumorhead in the genome of Acropora millepora does not in any way mean that the neural net of the coral should thus be complex and differentiated, as it is in a vertebrate's nervous system. And while I'm no expert on neural development, it makes sense to me that an organism with both a motile life stage (requiring a more complicated nervous system) and a sessile life stage (which doesn't require a complicated nervous system) would have genes which allow it to develop either a more complex or a less complex neural system as needed, during the various stages of the organism's development.

ANT, I used the word, human, because that's what they do. It doesn't matter if it's also the same genetic sequences as other vertebrates. That's not germane to the discussion.

If you actually understand what's being said, you'd know that. I have never claimed, nor suggested, the genetic sequences were exclusive to human beings.
 
If we are discussing common descent, then it most certainly is germane to the discussion.

Please explain. We're not primarily discussing the validity of common descent but looking at evidence assuming common descent, though some comments and so forth to get into in a cursory manner the idea of special creation over common descent.
 
ANT, I used the word, human, because that's what they do. It doesn't matter if it's also the same genetic sequences as other vertebrates. That's not germane to the discussion.
Bull. The discussion is about the importance of finding a certain gene in coral. The only reason this is a question is because a similar gene is found in humans, and is associated with a process corals aren't known to have. The paper's conclusion is that yes, in fact, they DO have that process, just at an unexpected stage in the life cycle. You (and, in my opinion, the authors to some extent) over-stretch this finding to make statements about evolution. Well, if you want to discuss the evolution of this trait a logical question to ask is "Who else has it?" In this case, all vertebrates seem to have it. So does this coral. This means that A) it's NOT a "human" gene, but a "vertebrate" gene (meaning that it evolved well before humans and is a homology between humans and other vertebrates, not a unique traite in humans), and B) it evolved prior to when we expected it did. C'est simple.

The way your argument is stated it sounds like (please note the copious use of caveats) you're arguine that any gene found in humans should be unique to humans. This is what Creationism, not evolution, proposes. From an evolutionary perspective all this paper did was push back when one trait evolved--something that happens CONSTANTLY in paleontology. Seriously, look up the journal Paleontology and read the latest issue. I haven't seen it, but I'd bet my house that there's an article discussing a new first appearance of some trait.
 
ANT, I used the word, human, because that's what they do. It doesn't matter if it's also the same genetic sequences as other vertebrates. That's not germane to the discussion.

It is absolutely germane to the discussion, because it completely ignores why the paper makes reference to humans at all (hint: it's the same reason the paper talks about "coral", "fly", and "worm" genes). And why none of the paper's "surprises" have anything to do with humans.

If you actually understand what's being said, you'd know that. I have never claimed, nor suggested, the genetic sequences were exclusive to human beings.

You are absolutely suggesting that there's something special about these genes being found in humans by your constant harping on the fact and using phrases like "human nervous system" and "human nerve function" (posting things like "What are genes for complex and even human nerve function doing in this simple coral?").

And you didn't answer my question. Would you describe the sub-Saharan frog Xenopus laevis as having a human nervous system or a human nerve function, randman?
 
I thought the drunkard's walk involved a threshold. The idea being, the drunkard is walking randomly on a sidewalk bounded on either one or both sides by a gutter. Eventually the drunk always winds up in the gutter, and the interesting stuff involves how he gets there. The left-hand wall model applies to things with no threshhold condition, and one hard boundary (for example, random motion with a wall to the left). The drunkad's walk is more applicable to conditions such as "You can only be X efficient, and if you're less than Y efficient you die". The left-hand wall rule is more applicable when you can only be a minimum of Y, but can be as much higher than that as you want.

I'm not saying this to say "You're wrong I'm right hahaha", and please forgive me if it sounds like I am. I'm just presenting how I understand the statistics so you can see where I'm cominig from. I'll gladly admit that my knowledge of the statistics isn't great--geologists are noteable in their ability to visualize complex processes while considering math a necessary chore. :)

I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. But this paper talks about a drunkard's walk on the nonnegative integers i.e. only bounded at zero. My google fu seems to be too weak to find a proper definition.
 
ANT, are you that dense? Of course, it's the same point of my argument whether it's vertebrates or exclusive to humans? If the genes were conserved across the board, my argument would be the same but the paper wouldn't talk of massive loss of genes in some animal lineages.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I have argued the genetic sequences were exclusive to humans and somehow this is relevant to my argument. It's not germane because I never made those points and did not argue them. However the paper does mention human genetic sequences and yes does so in part to distinquish how some animal lineages don't have those sequences.

ironically, the paper does suggest some sort of exclusivity, some lineages with these sequences and others without. But no one has mistaken the idea that the genetic sequences are exclusive to human beings.

It would be interesting to try to determine if these seguences disappeared and reemerged (DNA skipping), but that's not the point the paper makes, nor me here.

You are absolutely suggesting that there's something special about these genes being found in humans by your constant harping on the fact and using phrases like "human nervous system" and "human nerve function" (posting things like "What are genes for complex and even human nerve function doing in this simple coral?").

Um, in case you haven't noticed, that's the terminology of the paper itself. How else would you have me describe it?

And you didn't answer my question. Would you describe the sub-Saharan frog Xenopus laevis as having a human nervous system or a human nerve function, randman?

I didn't answer the question because it's just plain stupid.

1. No one said the coral has a human nervous system. This has been explained you ad nauseum.

2. As far as human genes, if I were writing a paper, it would depend on the research being done. The language I have used is reflective of the peer-reviewed paper and not of mine own. I would think accurately repeating their language would be commendable, but evidently not for you.
 
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It is absolutely germane to the discussion, because it completely ignores why the paper makes reference to humans at all (hint: it's the same reason the paper talks about "coral", "fly", and "worm" genes). And why none of the paper's "surprises" have anything to do with humans.



You are absolutely suggesting that there's something special about these genes being found in humans by your constant harping on the fact and using phrases like "human nervous system" and "human nerve function" (posting things like "What are genes for complex and even human nerve function doing in this simple coral?").

And you didn't answer my question. Would you describe the sub-Saharan frog Xenopus laevis as having a human nervous system or a human nerve function, randman?

For eight years....I've seen this italicized. For the first time when NOT seeing it so, I actually had to cringe...

This has NOTHING to add to this thread at this time =P
 
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The discussion is about the importance of finding a certain gene in coral. The only reason this is a question is because a similar gene is found in humans, and is associated with a process corals aren't known to have.

That part is right. The following isn't.

The paper's conclusion is that yes, in fact, they DO have that process, just at an unexpected stage in the life cycle.

Wrong. The paper does not make that claim; nor is it's purpose; nor does the coral have the processes of complex nerve function.
 
You (and, in my opinion, the authors to some extent) over-stretch this finding to make statements about evolution.

Here we go finally. How do you think the authors over-stretch their findings? Let's just lay aside my arguments for a minute so we can talk about the author's findings and how you disagree with them.
 
Rand you have to understand how ridiculous this paper plays in your favor against NeoDarwinism or evolution.

By the logic you're using playing the semantics game with this paper, it may shock you to learn that cephalopods have eyesight and the genes needed for those and yet the physiology for their eye is absolutely exclusive FROM mammalian eyes, and yet they share common genes.

This should absolutely floor you, but it probably won't because we already know and understand this. You don't question it (I hope; if you do, you're far gone. You said 20 years+ right?).

This whole thread is a testament to your limited unsophisticated understanding of biology on the whole, coupled with your unreasonable stance on new data which actually EXPLAINS the problem you're running into, you just don't seem to care.
 
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In this case, all vertebrates seem to have it.
How many were tested?

So does this coral. This means that A) it's NOT a "human" gene, but a "vertebrate" gene (meaning that it evolved well before humans and is a homology between humans and other vertebrates, not a unique traite in humans)...

If coral has it then it's just as wrong to call it a vertebrate gene as it is to all it a human one. By the same argument you use.

The way your argument is stated it sounds like (please note the copious use of caveats) you're arguine that any gene found in humans should be unique to humans.
Not that I've read. Where does he say this?
 

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