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Stupid Christian Article on Evolution

Answer: it wasn't. Despite your claims that "evos" didn't see this coming while IDers did, the paper linked at the very creationist website you linked to says exactly the opposite.

In fact, the ENCODE findings actually make the integration of your vaunted epigenetic heritability into the Synthetic Model even less problematic than it was before, since it's easier to find and understand the noncoding genes that regulate epigenetic gene expression.
here.).

First off, who said anything about "vaunted epigenetics." That's just one example of what I am talking of.

Secondly, you err in not looking back further at the history of evolutionary thought. Sure, evos are coming around and abandoning some things others had long told them were wrong.

Your pretense that's not the case is quite absurd.

Do you really think evos had not used the argument of pseudogenes as very strong evidence for common descent?

Is that what you are saying?

This kind of reminds of the Haeckel fiasco. I learned Haeckel forged his drawings from a botany professor at NC State back in the 80s when he gave a talk on another campus. For years, every evo I ran into said there was no way, that this is tantamount to accusing evos of a conspiracy. With the advent of the internet, it became so widely known, it was an embarrassment and so Richardson did his study in the late 90s and came out saying it was "one of the biggest fakes in all biology." He also stated in his paper that embrylogists relied on Haeckel as their principal data-set and assumed his stuff was accurate.

Now how could they do that. There had been sustained criticism and debunking of Haeckel for well over 100 years. I even knew as a student, not a biology student, that they were fakes. How is it the working scientists in the field did not?

Answer: they don't listen to criticism and data if it's not from an evolutionist.

Now, as I predicted, I said just wait. I bet there is so much outcry over this in a few years evos will be back to touting Haeckel in some way and not mentioning the "fake" and "fraud" remarks so much. This wasn't the first expose of recapitulation being based on faked data. The process has repeated itself for over 100 years.

Well, by 2005, Richardson lent his name or wrote in a peer-reviewed paper that what he formerly derided as "one of the biggest fakes in all biology" and as "fraud" were now actually "good teaching aides."
 
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To elaborate a little more on how evos use or misuse data. Why would evos need faked data as "teaching aides" and why would this be considered "good"?

Is it not because the effort is not to inform students to look at the data closely, but to convince them their theory is true?

When you take the lens cap of NeoDarwinism and just look at the data, a very different picture emerges. Front loading, ID, special creation or ideas on the universe "doing it" such as Hawking's idea for fine-tuning where the universe existed in superposition and selected "past histories" in order to conform to bringing forth life and conciousness (he says without God) could all potentially work as scientific models.

But what doesn't work is NeoDarwinism, the idea of small changes adding up to big ones and so originating the higher taxa. We don't see any examples of that in living biota, nor the fossil record. What we know of microevolutionary processes is that they involve generally a decrease in genetic variability over time and are so are wholly unsuited for originating the higher taxa. It's evolution in the wrong direction or as some famous scientists put it, dead ends.

If you don't believe me, show me a parent species that evolves new species in living biota among sexually reproducing organisms resulting in a new genus, and then look at what happens genetically.

Show me an example of the fossil record doing the same thing. Keep in mind showing so-called intermediates without showing NeoDarwinian evolution means nothing.

On recapitulation, it was often considered first (though not initally) to be of adult stages, then repeats of evolutionary development in embryonic stages, that was thrown out, and then the idea was a phylotypic stage. All these were called recapitulation and all shown to be wrong. Now, we have the same word being used to make very small claims such as pharingeal pouches in human embryos being fish gills or the backbone being a tail and other such nonsense. The fact they'd changed the theory 4-5 times but kept the same word, as if they were right all along, never occurs to them they are employing propaganda; that just perhaps they are obscuring the data with their doctrine.

It's Ok to use faked data as "good teaching aides" in their world.
 
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To elaborate a little more on how evos use or misuse data. Why would evos need faked data as "teaching aides" and why would this be considered "good"?
We do not. You have not demonstrated any use of fraud. Either back up the allegations or appologize--some of us are among those you accuse of fraud.

As for conceptual models, they all have flaws. Hardy/Weinburg Equilibrium is impossible, for example. No population can fit the assumptions. That said, they are USEFUL. We can figure out how a population diverges from HWE, and that tells us useful information about the population. Or, we can engage in thought experiments which illustrate one or two aspects of the concept in question. Sure, it's wrong for other aspects--but misaplication of a model is the fault of the person who misapplied it, not the person who created the model.

We don't see any examples of that in living biota, nor the fossil record.
The arthropod, gastropod, and microfossil record prove this wrong. I've provided ample evidence, in the form of links to several books on the subject written by respected researchers.

The fact they'd changed the theory 4-5 times but kept the same word, as if they were right all along, never occurs to them they are employing propaganda; that just perhaps they are obscuring the data with their doctrine.
Typical Creationist logic: Science changes, therefore it's wrong, therefore the fairy tale de jure.
 
No, not if you go back further. This is just evidence of biologists, though many won't admit it, beginning to come around to ideas initially promoted in ID and others such as men like Pierre Grasse. Biology is likely undergoing a paradigm shift and part of that is a deemphasis on NeoDarwinian mechanisms and arguments.

That, of course, does not mean mainstream biologists are abandoning common descent.

Ah, so you're moving the goalposts. Instead of saying that "evos" never predicted the ENCODE findings, they were predicted...but only by biologists who are "coming around" to ID.

Except that's not the case at all. Because the article in Genome Research names those scientists who predicted what you said they didn't predict: Piero Carninci and Jan-Fang Cheng. And as even a brief search in Pub Med shows, in the more than half a decade since their initial "predictions" were published, they've continued to author paper after paper, all of which continue to confirm and add to the pile of evidence behind the Synthetic Model. Neither of them are any closer to the bogus idea of ID than they were before.

And look, they're still making predictions.

(EDIT:And, uh, you are aware that even if "front loading" were, by some impossible happenstance, true...that there would still have to be "common descent", with all modern living things descending from a single ancestor, in order for it to explain what it's purporting to explain. Right?)

First off, who said anything about "vaunted epigenetics." That's just one example of what I am talking of.

Actually, it's not, because you didn't actually use it as an example of anything. You didn't say anything at all about it, least of all why you think epigenetics is in any way problematic or challenging for the Synthetic Model, even when asked directly.

Because epigenetics is actually helping our view of evolution become far more accurate than ever before, and not by contradicting and replacing what we knew before, but by enhancing it and filling in the gaps in our knowledge.

For instance, since Susumo Ohno first postulated the 2R hypothesis of genome duplication back in 1970, every time it was probed and explored and examined during the controversy regarding it during the decades since, it's held up. However, despite the firm base it rests on, there were still questions regarding the specifics of how it happened, even with all the other experimental verification, because of the problem of gene loss rate. The paper I previously cited for you was one step towards solving that mystery, with its discovery that the rate of gene duplication that leads to functional divergence instead of being dropped from the genome being far higher than anyone had previously thought.

What sealed the deal, though, was the discovery of the role epigenetics played in increasing this rate. This is what all those papers by Rodin et al were about (Rodin even dedicated a number of these papers to the memory of Ohno, who passed away in 2000 before the breakthrough was published).

So, whereas before we knew that Ohno was right, but we weren't quite sure why, now we know why he was right as well.

Thanks to epigenetics.

Secondly, you err in not looking back further at the history of evolutionary thought. Sure, evos are coming around and abandoning some things others had long told them were wrong.

No, they're asking themselves questions and finding out the answers for themselves, adding to an ever-increasing, increasingly-accurate pool of knowledge regarding the evolution of life on Earth.

This is the way science works, you know.

Do you really think evos had not used the argument of pseudogenes as very strong evidence for common descent?

Is that what you are saying?

You're doing it again, throwing out vague and meaningless statements. This is the same thing you did by throwing epigenetics into the discussion without giving any details whatsoever about why you think it matters.

If you want to discuss the history of knowledge and hypotheses regarding pseudogenes in the Synthetic Model, start by giving the specific argument that was advanced, who advanced it, where they said it, and what you think is wrong with it.

Then we can talk about it.

This kind of reminds of the Haeckel fiasco. I learned Haeckel forged his drawings from a botany professor at NC State back in the 80s when he gave a talk on another campus. For years, every evo I ran into said there was no way, that this is tantamount to accusing evos of a conspiracy.

I find that very surprising, since Haeckel was accused of fraud as far back as the mid-1870's (and there is a persistent, though false, Creationist claim that he was actually convicted of such back then). Michael Richardson even repeated this claim in the 1998 paper you cite below, though when called on it in a letter to the journal Science, where his paper was first published, he retracted it after confessing he only read about that claim in a newspaper and didn't follow up to locate a primary source.

In any case, Haeckel himself changed some of his drawings in later editions of his book, in response to criticisms like these.

With the advent of the internet, it became so widely known, it was an embarrassment and so Richardson did his study in the late 90s and came out saying it was "one of the biggest fakes in all biology." He also stated in his paper that embrylogists relied on Haeckel as their principal data-set and assumed his stuff was accurate.

Except that the embryologist Michael Richardson only said that Haeckel had falsified some of his drawings, not all, and still thought Haeckel's basic idea, though not the specific conclusions he drew (or the drawings he made) were both accurate and important.

In 2001, Richardson was even more direct about Haeckel's contributions to embryology despite the controversy over his drawings:

One of the central, unresolved controversies in biology concerns the distribution of primitive versus advanced characters at different stages of vertebrate development. This controversy has major implications for evolutionary developmental biology and phylogenetics. Ernst Haeckel addressed the issue with his Biogenetic Law, and his embryo drawings functioned as supporting data. We re-examine Haeckel's work and its significance for modern efforts to develop a rigorous comparative framework for developmental studies. Haeckel's comparative embryology was evolutionary but non-quantitative. It was based on developmental sequences, and treated heterochrony as a sequence change. It is not always clear whether he believed in recapitulation of single characters or entire stages. The Biogenetic Law is supported by several recent studies – if applied to single characters only. Haeckel's important but overlooked alphabetical analogy of evolution and development is an advance on von Baer. Haeckel recognized the evolutionary diversity in early embryonic stages, in line with modern thinking. He did not necessarily advocate the strict form of recapitulation and terminal addition commonly attributed to him. Haeckel's much-criticized embryo drawings are important as phylogenetic hypotheses, teaching aids, and evidence for evolution. While some criticisms of the drawings are legitimate, others are more tendentious. In opposition to Haeckel and his embryo drawings, Wilhelm His made major advances towards developing a quantitative comparative embryology based on morphometrics. Unfortunately His's work in this area is largely forgotten. Despite his obvious flaws, Haeckel can be seen as the father of a sequence-based phylogenetic embryology.

Richardson himself, by the way, had some things to say regarding people like you who took his criticism of Haeckel as evidence against evolution.

In a letter to the journal Science written the same year his criticism of Haeckel was published, he wrote:

Our work has been used in a nationally televised debate to attack evolutionary theory, and to suggest that evolution cannot explain embryology. We strongly disagree with this viewpoint. Data from embryology are fully consistent with Darwinian evolution. Haeckel's famous drawings are a Creationist cause celebre. Early versions show young embryos looking virtually identical in different vertebrate species. On a fundamental level, Haeckel was correct: All vertebrates develop a similar body plan (consisting of notochord, body segments, pharyngeal pouches, and so forth). This shared developmental program reflects shared evolutionary history. It also fits with overwhelming recent evidence that development in different animals is controlled by common genetic mechanisms.

Unfortunately, Haeckel was overzealous. When we compared his drawings with real embryos, we found that he showed many details incorrectly. He did not show significant differences between species, even though his theories allowed for embryonic variation. For example, we found variations in embryonic size, external form, and segment number which he did not show. This does not negate Darwinian evolution. On the contrary, the mixture of similarities and differences among vertebrate embryos reflects evolutionary change in developmental mechanisms inherited from a common ancestor.

...

These conclusions are supported in part by comparisons of developmental timing in different vertebrates . This work indicates a strong correlation between embryonic developmental sequences in humans and other eutherian mammals, but weak correlation between humans and some "lower" vertebrates. Haeckel's inaccuracies damage his credibility, but they do not invalidate the mass of published evidence for Darwinian evolution. Ironically, had Haeckel drawn the embryos accurately, his first two valid points in favor of evolution would have been better demonstrated.

So you might want to try a different tack. This one's a dead end for you.

Now how could they do that. There had been sustained criticism and debunking of Haeckel for well over 100 years. I even knew as a student, not a biology student, that they were fakes. How is it the working scientists in the field did not?

They did know about it. That's why Haeckel's drawings haven't been used as positive evidence since...well, Haeckel's own day.

Answer: they don't listen to criticism and data if it's not from an evolutionist.

No, they did. They not only listened to Richardson, but to all the others who wrote about Haeckel and his drawings (PubMed gives sixteen pages of results when you search for "Haeckel").

Now, as I predicted, I said just wait. I bet there is so much outcry over this in a few years evos will be back to touting Haeckel in some way and not mentioning the "fake" and "fraud" remarks so much. This wasn't the first expose of recapitulation being based on faked data. The process has repeated itself for over 100 years.

As shown above, your shocking expose of recapitulation not only leaves something to be desired, it entirely misses the point of the controversy regarding Haeckel's drawings and what the entire view of recapitulation really was (and is).

Well, by 2005, Richardson lent his name or wrote in a peer-reviewed paper that what he formerly derided as "one of the biggest fakes in all biology" and as "fraud" were now actually "good teaching aides."

No, not "by 2005". As I showed you above, he didn't say what you think he said about Haeckel, and he thought the same way all the way back when he first wrote his criticism that you're so grossly misusing.

I'd like to see what 2005 paper you're specifically referring to here, though, to see where that three word sentence fragment is in context. Here's a list of Richardson's papers. If you could, please let me know which of those papers is the one in question.
 
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Here's another example of IDers and others being more judicious in their approach to data and evos resorting to simplistic thinking and overstate (as they did defining evolution as merely a change in the frequency of alleles but in a less egregious example than Haeckel..

Michael Denton, an Intelligent Design theorist that is religiously agnostic, wrote this in 1985:

Back in 1985 Denton wrote of the Molecular Clock Hypothesis which was concocted by Schlemiel Zuckerkandl:

…the idea of uniform rates of evolution [molecular clocks] is presented in the literature as if it were an empirical discovery. The hold of every evolutionary paradigm is so powerful that an idea [molecular clocks] which is more like a principle of medieval astrology than a serious twentieth-century scientific theory has become a reality for evolutionary biologists…the biological community seems content to offer explanations which are no more than apologetic tautologies.

Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (1985)

http://www.uncommondescent.com/inte...ks-michael-denton-continues-to-be-vindicated/

You may ask, well, so what. Of course, assuming a constant rate of mutation and so the molecular clock was a stupid idea, and it was being reflective of NeoDarwinian simplistic thinking.

But evos roundly and severely derided Denton as wrong.

Reviews by parties within the scientific community were vehemently negative, with several attacking flaws in Denton's arguments. Biologist and philosopher Michael Ghiselin described A Theory in Crisis as "a book by an author who is obviously incompetent, dishonest, or both — and it may be very hard to decide which is the case" and that his "arguments turn out to be flagrant instances of the fallacy of irrelevant conclusion."[7]

.....
The fallacy in Denton's argument was that there is really no such thing as a "living fossil", all modern species are cousins.[14] A carp is not an ancestor to a frog; frogs are not ancestors to turtles; turtles are not ancestors to rabbits. The variations in cytochrome c structure were all relative to the common ancestor of these different organisms and it was not surprising that they showed a similar level of divergence.

Denton did understand this reply, but claimed that it was implausible to assume that such a molecular clock could keep such constant time over different lineages.[15] Those familiar with molecular clocks did not agree, since calibration with fossil records shows the cytochrome clock to be surprisingly reliable, and also found his suggestion that molecular equidistance was instead evidence of some sort of evolutionary "direction" to be a more implausible assumption than the one to which he was objecting. Critics found it difficult to accept a "directed" mechanism for changes in cytochrome C that were neutral, producing different proteins whose action was the same.
Denton's conclusions have been called "erroneous" and "spurious"[14] and marine biologist Wesley R. Elsberry states that all the observations in question can be explained within the modern framework of evolutionary theory.[16]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution:_A_Theory_in_Crisis

But Denton was right on the molecular clock. For example, this one paper mentions:
Large discrepancies have been found in dates of evolutionary events obtained using the molecular clock. Twofold differences have been reported between the dates estimated from molecular data and those from the fossil record; furthermore, different molecular methods can give dates that differ 20-fold. N

http://www.uncommondescent.com/inte...ks-michael-denton-continues-to-be-vindicated/

If evos had honestly and objectively considered Denton's arguments, they might have seen that their ideas on the molecular clock were premature, but typically evos maintain a dogmatic orthodox approach in order to silence their critics and so continued in their error when the ID theorist, in this matter, was correct.

This process has repeated itself over and over again on small and large issues. NeoDarwinists continually overstate the significance of data in light of ND and vehemently attack those that offer more plausible or equally plausible explanations.

So even on something where you'd think most evos (and there were some) would be more cautious than insisting the molecular clock was valid because it was part of a defense of evolutionism, they plunged ahead just as they did with Haeckel, recapitulation, evolution only through a change in allele frequency, depicting a fully terrestrial animal as a swimming whale, insisting years ago the fossil record detailed gradual change, claiming pseudogenes, etc, etc,.....

That's why Pierre Grasse warned of "the myth of evolution" of believing ND explains it and encouraged biologists to think more deeply and comprehensively of the matter.
 
(Not meant to derail)

I see a large parallel here between Randman and John Hampden of the Flat Earth Society.

If evos had honestly and objectively considered Denton's arguments, they might have seen that their ideas on the molecular clock were premature, but typically evos maintain a dogmatic orthodox approach in order to silence their critics and so continued in their error when the ID theorist, in this matter, was correct.

I bet you've worn out your DVD copy of Expelled
 
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No, not "by 2005". As I showed you above, he didn't say what you think he said about Haeckel, and he thought the same way all the way back when he first wrote his criticism that you're so grossly misusing.

I'd like to see what 2005 paper you're specifically referring to here, though, to see where that three word sentence fragment is in context. Here's a list of Richardson's papers. If you could, please let me know which of those papers is the one in question.

Ok, here ya go:

From the Science article in 1997 (note using another source to quote it but you can look up the original article).

Science explained that, in order to be able to show the embryos as similar, Haeckel deliberately removed some organs from his drawings or else added imaginary ones. Later in this same article, the following information was revealed:

Not only did Haeckel add or omit features, Richardson and his colleagues report, but he also fudged the scale to exaggerate similarities among species, even when there were 10-fold differences in size. Haeckel further blurred differences by neglecting to name the species in most cases, as if one representative was accurate for an entire group of animals. In reality, Richardson and his colleagues note, even closely related embryos such as those of fish vary quite a bit in their appearance and developmental pathway. "It (Haeckel's drawings) looks like it's turning out to be one of the most famous fakes in biology," Richardson concludes.324

http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/embryology_04.html

Then in section 4 of the conclusion of a paper in March of 2002 (not 2005 as I mistakenly recalled)

Haeckel's much-criticized embryo drawings are important as phylogenetic hypotheses, teaching aids, and evidence for evolution.

http://wwworm.biology.uh.edu/evodevo/lecture2/richardson02.pdf

So in a matter of 5 short years he goes from saying the drawings were fakes, fraudulent, mistakenly relied on, etc,....to lauding them as teaching aides and incredibly as "evidence for evolution."

There ya go. Fakes are still "evidence for evolution."
 
Over 98% of our dna is junk, or filler. The Creator must not be very intelligent at all.

Let me see what you can create with the 2%.

You assume your own perfect and complete knowledge from where you judge.

I have no problem in believing in an infinite superior to your very finite inferior.

I like that.

One of the reasons that I am a theist is how most plausible it seems to me that there is an infinite superior omnipotent Creator to brush aside the arrogant inanity and finite inferiority of impotent and impudent atheists that happen to be other mere men, despite their self-exalted self-opinion.
 
Let me see what you can create with the 2%.

You assume your own perfect and complete knowledge from where you judge.

I have no problem in believing in an infinite superior to your very finite inferior.

I like that.

One of the reasons that I am a theist is how most plausible it seems to me that there is an infinite superior omnipotent Creator to brush aside the arrogant inanity and finite inferiority of impotent and impudent atheists that happen to be other mere men, despite their self-exalted self-opinion.

Without referring to evolution, can you give me scientific reason to accept Creation/ID?
 
Just for the record, why don't you read his findings before he reacted to creationist criticism.

He demonstrates with data and says Haeckel's drawings were faked and moreover that there is no phylotypic stage, no highly conserved stage. The fact he reverses himself when deciding to defend evolutionism against creationist criticism is just more evidence of what I am talking about.
 
I doubt it.

Really?

How often do you atheists think you might be wrong and that there might be a God?

Point me to such threads please.

Maybe you do individually and personally, in fact I'm sure many do, but none of you "skeptical" and "critical-thinking" atheists will openly admit and allow for this among yourselves in your posturing.


The most any of you can show me in this regard is a belligerant "Yeah, well show me the evidence and then I'll believe, but there is no evidence you can show me, is there? Is there? But you can't comprehend that in your little fear-based mentality, so there." or something really similar.
 
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Really?

How often do you atheists think you might be wrong and that there might be a God?

Point me to such threads please.

Many atheists think that there may be a god. Not actually believing that there is is what makes us atheists.
 
Here are some other quotes from Richardson's earlier paper.

One puzzling feature of the debate in this field is that
while many authors have written of a conserved embryonic
stage, no one has cited any comparative data in support
of the idea. It is almost as though the phylotypic
stage is regarded as a biological concept for which no
proof is needed.

So is this true when an evo says it but not when an IDer or creationist does?

Haeckel’s drawings of the external morphology
of various vertebrates remain the most comprehensive
comparative data purporting to show a conserved stage.

He then shows how Haeckel's data was wrong, faked, and there is no highly conserved stage. My old link to the paper doesn't work so will try to dig it up elsewhere.

He later complains of creationists saying the exact same thing he did, and then goes on to say in 2002 that the faked drawings are "evidence for evolution."
 
a 1997 paper by Richardson titled.

There is no highly conserved embryonic stage in the vertebrates: implications for current theories of evolution and development.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9278154

from the paper

Our survey seriously undermines the credibility of Haeckel's drawings, which depict not a conserved stage for vertebrates, but a stylised amniote embryo. In fact, the taxonomic level of greatest resemblance among vertebrate embryos is below the subphylum. The wide variation in morphology among vertebrate embryos is difficult to reconcile with the idea of a phyogenetically-conserved tailbud stage, and suggests that at least some developmental mechanisms are not highly constrained by the zootype.
 
But, in the case of natural selection, it is the environment that is doing the selection. Therefore the 'information desired' can be considered as encoded in the environment...
The desired traits are selected for by nature. You might even call it, oh, I don't know, selective naturalism or something.
 
You have not answered this. All you have done is argue that dissent should be acceptable. What IS creationism, as a scientific perspective?

Is it merely dissent against evolution? If so, what value does that add, if there is no new empirical knowledge to be gained from that?

The missing ingredient in this sentence is evidence. Real science welcomes dissent based on quality of evidential support.

Do you have good, solid, positive evidence for an Intelligent Agent intervening with the origins of life? Can you even, in principle, develop a testable hypothesis for acquiring such knowledge?

You are not addressing issues of quality in arguments.

Creationists and evolutions see the same data, they just interpret it differently. And, this leads to battles of "my pile of evidence is bigger than yours" and "No, my pile is bigger than yours", which can seem hopeless to resolve for many folks.

But, there is a way to resolve it! There is a way by which we can tell which idea is more likely on the right track than its competing idea: We can test ideas.

The ideas behind Evolution are very testable. I argue that those of Creationism are not. Each side can interpret the data any way they want to. But, one of them is ultimately going to generate more and better science, and the other will simply sit there and react to the discoveries.

As a consequence of this, Evolution already has a solid reputation as a tool for solving problems in the field of biology, and other ideas. Creationism cannot be applied to any problems, with any sense of reliability, yet.

Science is the discipline of acquiring new empirical knowledge. If what you are doing is not productive in the acquisition of new knowledge, you are not doing science. No matter how confident you are in your interpretation of the evidence.

I actually have no doubt that informed IDers understand evolution very well: If they didn't they would not be able to adapt their ideas to match the evidence uncovered by evolutionists.

But, the arguments of IDers cannot be applied to anything. They cannot be used to gain further knowledge about life, nor resolve problems in scientific fields.

Evolution has always had the power to change the course of creationism and ID proponents. But, ID has never discovered anything that would change the course of evolutionists.

Can you demonstrate that I am wrong about my assessment? Can you show us some of the great things we can discover about life, that Darwinists are completely missing out on?

Can you answer any of the other questions I gave you?

If ID or Creationism was a truly superior science, it should be easy for you.


Well said, sir. I am going to save this argument.
 

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