Study shows acupuncture doesn't work

[Rolfe]

The body does tend to notice when you stick needles into it, nobody disputes that. And some effects will vary depending on where the needles are stuck, usually according to whether the needle literally "hit a nerve".

However, this goes absolutely nowhere towards proving the therapeutic effects claimed for it.

Anyone who can prove the existence of "qi" or the vital force or energy is elegible for the Challenge. Physics can measure the angular momentum of a single electron. Biochemistry can accurately demonstrate exactly how many joules are consumed or liberated by any metabolic reaction. Physology can demonstrate the nerve potential and muscle contractions and so on.

Nobody has ever measured anything describable as "qi".

"Vitalisation of the body"? What on earth do you mean by this? The mechanisms involved in the "runner's high" and similar euphoric states are very well understood, and they have nothing at all to do with this unmeasurable and undemonstrable (and frankly non-existent) "qi".

Rolfe.

 

[Kilik]

Well, I still say 5 minutes of qigong is going to effectively vitalise the body and induce a long "runner's high" , much more than 30 minutes running.

It's the activation and awareness of the sensation of qi which is the major difference IME.

 

[Rolfe]

And you can prove that this isn't just your active imagination, exactly how? Come on, a million bucks awaits you.

Rolfe.

 

[Kilik]

Well, I don't know.

But I bet it is connected to, the "runner's high" idea, but greater. Electrical sensations similar to some machines is also produced.

 

[Jas]

Yes! Thank you. I'm taking this down to my Vet who has a set of cards on their front desk that I saw today, for cat acupuncture.

That's upsetting. When I see something like that in a veterinary office (or homeopathic drops, or whatnot), it always makes me wonder where else their knowledge is deficient. While my vet is wonderful, the emergency vet is into all of that crap (so I try to keep my pets from getting sick outside office hours- ).

 

[Rolfe]

Well, I don't know.

But I bet it is connected to, the "runner's high" idea, but greater. Electrical sensations similar to some machines is also produced.

True, you don't know.

Did you not understand what I was saying earlier? The angular momentum on a single electron, can be measured and shown to exist. The energy that fuels our bodies can be measured and tracked and shown to exist. The electrical potentials that fire nerves and contract muscles can be measured and shown to exist. The chemicals that produce euphoric feelings in the brain can be measured and shown to exist.

"Qi" cannot be measured, absolutely nothing at all is going on in the body that corresponds with what you say you're feeling. It's purely a feeling in your brain. It's psychological. Brought on by belief.

Electricity and electrical sensations in the body are extremely well understood, and measured and charted and can be induced. If there was any possible truth at all in what you "bet", it would be possible to measure it. It isn't.

Rolfe.

 

[Kilik]

The electrical aspects are part of what is understood as effects in the body, but not fully understood.

 

[Rolfe]

The electrical aspects are part of what is understood as effects in the body, but not fully understood.

"God of the Gaps" now, is it?

Explain what is not fully understood. (Bet you can't.) Explain how come an entire "energy" system in the body can not only have gone unnoticed by all of physiology, but failed to show up even when actively looked for, by a science that can measure the angular momentum on a single electron.

Just imagining you feel something, and then declaring that this is some unknown and unmeasurable energy, and then declaring that this proves that acupuncture is valid medicine, is one of the silliest trains of argument I have come across outside of Kumar's posts.

Rolfe.

 

[tkingdoll]

My sister went to her doctor last year with recurring back pain. After several visits and ineffective prescriptions, her doctor personally administered acupuncture and her symptoms disappeared. Obviously, this alarmed me, I had no idea that ordinary GPs ever used acupuncture. I wasn't surprised it had worked, her back pain was one of a list of 'mysterious' ailments that she has suffered from over the years during particulary stressful periods of her life. An imaginary cure for imaginary symptoms, indeed.

Anyway, my point is, does anyone else think that the doctor administered the acupuncture as a placebo?

Or is it likely that a medical GP would actually genuinely believe and utilise such quackery?

I'd like to think it's the former, but as this same doctor failed to diagnose a slipped disc this year, I'm not so sure.

 

[Loon]

PS. There are only two "c"s in acupuncture, and they don't come together.

Ah, ha! The evidence for acupuncture is from non-existent to pathetic, but the evidence for accupuncture is much closer to tenuous.

 

[Physiotherapist]

Anyway, my point is, does anyone else think that the doctor administered the acupuncture as a placebo? Or is it likely that a medical GP would actually genuinely believe and utilise such quackery?

To answer your question, there are a lot of GP's that do utilize acupuncture. However, they normally train in medical acupuncture, which is called trigger point acupuncture. They are then normally registered with BMAS, which is the British Medical Acupuncture Society.

Basically, they are using the acupuncture points as a form of pain relief and cutting the TCM aspect out of it.

It can be quite effective for low back pain and other kinds of musculoskeletal complaints and there is some research around to demonstrate this.

 

[steenkh]

My wife was given "pain relief" by one of such doctor. Without asking, the doctor suddenly started jabbing my wife with needles, and and she got such pain that she nearly fainted (but I bet she forgot her original pain for a moment). It took close to a month before the pain from the needles was gone.

My wife believes that one of the needles hit a nerve, and next time someone brandishes a needle in front of her, she is going to react violently!

 

[tkingdoll]

To answer your question, there are a lot of GP's that do utilize acupuncture. However, they normally train in medical acupuncture, which is called trigger point acupuncture. They are then normally registered with BMAS, which is the British Medical Acupuncture Society.

Basically, they are using the acupuncture points as a form of pain relief and cutting the TCM aspect out of it.

It can be quite effective for low back pain and other kinds of musculoskeletal complaints and there is some research around to demonstrate this.

Now I'm really confused! So are you saying there's good acupuncture, and bad acupuncture?

I thought it was the whole 'trigger point' thing that was the issue of debate, i.e. that in reality there are no trigger points and you could stick the needles any old where.

So where is the line between the BMAS-approved acupuncture and the woo acupuncture?

 

[supercorgi]

*surpresses visions of daft acupuncturist practicing on cats and having cats claw and beat the living @&#^%@*&#^% out of them..... ...maybe I should just leave the cards there and let the simulus / response do the work for me.....*

And I hope the poor cats bite the damn quack too! Having recently been bitten by my cat, and having to go through two intravenous antibiotic treatments for it, I can tell you that is a great incentive not to stick sharp, pointy objects into cats. I never had any idea how bad cat bites were!

 

[Rolfe]

To answer your question, there are a lot of GP's that do utilize acupuncture. However, they normally train in medical acupuncture, which is called trigger point acupuncture. They are then normally registered with BMAS, which is the British Medical Acupuncture Society.

Basically, they are using the acupuncture points as a form of pain relief and cutting the TCM aspect out of it.

It can be quite effective for low back pain and other kinds of musculoskeletal complaints and there is some research around to demonstrate this.

Not really. Acupuncture has managed to get a fair measure of (undeserved) legitimacy within the real medical establishment. Like I said, I think a lot of it is people not wanting to seem closed-minded, and being relieved to agree that at least one SCAM modality might have some validity. But the actual evidence is that it's just placebo effect, and it doesn't matter where the needles are placed.

Doing something almost always seems to be better than doing nothing. And the more "something" you do, or the more invasive the "something" is, the more marked the effect often is. So, when you actually stick needles in the patient, and maybe even hurt them, hey, heap powerful medicine that!

No doubt the doctors who are using this method don't think it's placebo, they're just believing what they've been told. But there's no evidence of any specific effect from acupuncture needling of particular places (apart form the obviousl consequence of hitting a particular anatomical structure).

Anyway, this whole pain relief part is pretty much a modern invention. Acupuncture as she was originally marketed was a cure-all medical system, needle in the ear would cure your sick liver, needle in the big toe would be the answer to your kidney failure (not real examples) and so on. This is such blatant nonsense, but somehow the (apparently intuitive) idea that it might provide pain relief sort of caught on.

Rolfe.

 

[patnray]

Having recently been bitten by my cat, and having to go through two intravenous antibiotic treatments for it, I can tell you that is a great incentive not to stick sharp, pointy objects into cats. I never had any idea how bad cat bites were!

Happened to me, too, a few years back. Nasty. Thank science for the antibiotics.

 

[Bronze Dog]

Scratches are pretty bad, too. Brother has a black cat named Kafka. He's got extra sharp claws (spends half of his waking time sharpening them), and lots of muscle. (Advantage when he's in a good mood: You can treat him like a dog. He loves hard, vigorous tummy rubs.)

Oh, and since acupuncture's the same regardless of where you stick the needles, does that mean I can have a nail gun war?

 

[Physiotherapist]

Now I'm really confused! So are you saying there's good acupuncture, and bad acupuncture?

No need to be confused.

There are two different types of acupuncture that are practiced. One is by practitioners who are registered with the British Acupuncture Council and who mostly train for 3 years and use Traditional Chinese Medicine as their diagnostic tool.

The other type of medical acupuncture can be practiced by doctors, physiotherapists and other registered health care practitioners. This training is limited to a few weekends though and as I said, the doctors are then registered with BMAS and the others are registered with a healthcare acupuncture society of some kind.

That is the distinction and is not intrinsictly good or bad. Some of my physio colleagues have undertaken acupuncture courses.

 

[neutrino_cannon]

Buchwald said acupuncturists generally tailor treatment for each patient and often combine it with other forms of therapy, which cannot be done in a clinical trial.

Wouldn't that make this study unrepresentative of acupuncture as a whole then?

And I didn't see it stated whether or not the study was performed double blind.

 

[Rolfe]

And I didn't see it stated whether or not the study was performed double blind.

We went into this on another thread. Although it might be possible to blind the patient, with enough care, it is impossible in practical terms to blind an acupuncturist as to whether he is performing real acupuncture or sham acupuncture.

Rolfe.