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Study: Many Blacks Cite AIDS Conspiracy

Luke T. said:
I think it is far more likely that AIDS is not artificial and that the only exploitation going on is on the part of certain black community leaders who take advantage of their people's cultural paranoia and thereby increase and nurture it.

Wasn't that what I just said? ;)

I had an afterthought about my comments on the validity of the comparison you made between this and Jewish people keeping a weather-eye on the skinheads.

The big difference between the two situations is that the neo-nazi's embrace racism as a part of their charter. The USA embraces equality for all as a part of our charter... however poorly we may do at achieving it. :)

(Edited to add quote, since a new message got between us.)
 
jmercer said:
Wasn't that what I just said? ;)

Upon re-reading, it appears so. :)

The big difference between the two situations is that the neo-nazi's embrace racism as a part of their charter. The USA embraces equality for all as a part of our charter... however poorly we may do at achieving it. :)

By the USA charter which embraces equality, you mean the one that has the 3/5 rule, right? :p
 
Luke T. said:
By the USA charter which embraces equality, you mean the one that has the 3/5 rule, right? :p

<chuckle>

No, I'm referring to that obscure, rather quaint document called the "Declaration of Independence", that states:


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

;)
 
jmercer said:
<chuckle>

No, I'm referring to that obscure, rather quaint document called the "Declaration of Independence", that states:
;)

At which time of its writing, there were half a million slaves in the colonies, some of which were owned by the man who penned those words.
 
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CFLarsen said:
The problem is that there is no evidence of this AIDS conspiracy.


Irrelevant. There was no evidence that all atheists were communists in the 1950's, either.


"My" people? Who are "my" people?


Not my comment, not a clue.


Again, there is evidence of the Holocaust. There is no evidence of this conspiracy.

I agree that there is no evidence of this conspiracy. On the other hand, both the public and the government have done many things with no evidence. I think evidence is a red herring, and what we see is malicious politics in action.

We could, if we wanted, discuss many things, from WMD in Iraq to the humanity of slaves. In all cases, evidence is somewhere between lacking and nonexistant. None the less policies emerge.

Now, I suspect that there is a reason this malicious rumour is spread, though, simply because it creates political tension and increases racial hatred. I'd guess that whoever made it up did so in a deliberate attempt to cause harm.

The fact that I think there is a reason that this is spread, of course, in no way should be taken as approval. Such spreading of hate has a long, evil historical record.
 
Luke T. said:
At which time of its writing, there were half a million slaves in the colonies, some of which were owned by the man who penned those words.

Well, you can't count the female slaves - no one was claiming women were created equal.
 
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Sorry, Claus. I did not see your post in response to me until just now.

CFLarsen said:
The problem is that there is no evidence of this AIDS conspiracy.

No, there isn't. But my point was that there is plenty of evidence of past conspiracies against blacks in America, the deliberate infection of the Tuskegee airmen being one and therefore relevant as to why blacks would be susceptible to believing another conspiracy was afoot.

"My" people? Who are "my" people?

Skeptics? :)
 
Luke T. said:
At which time of its writing, there were half a million slaves in the colonies, some of which were owned by the man who penned those words.

Absolutely correct. :) And you hit a hot button with me, so - BANG! ;)

If the words (when penned) were meant to include slaves, then there was apparently a kind of hypocrisy going on. I say apparently, because we're discussing this without historical context. Without trying to determine if GW, et. al., meant that slavery should be abolished or not when they wrote the Declaration, the context of the situation (often overlooked) may give us some reasons for why the intention may not have matched the actions.

The thirteen colonies were fractious, independently-minded groups of people that didn't really get along. They were ultimately unified - not by a dream, or shared belief - but by a percieved common enemy and economic need brought on by the oppression of King George. Even if the intention to free the slaves was there, any effort made to abolish slavery would have dissolved this fragile union almost immediately. No revolution would have been fought. (In fact, things of far lesser significance - like personality conflicts - almost destroyed the alliance anyway.)

Post-revolution, the United States was still a very fragile and vulnerable entity whose primary focus was on simple survival. The economic engine was still greatly dependent on cheap labor (slavery), so subsequent leaders were not about to rock that particular boat.

This doesn't excuse or justify slavery in any way; all it hopefully does is help put into perspective why the possible intentions of the founding fathers didn't match their actions.

Ultimately, it was these specific words in that document which Lincoln used to justify launching a civil war and freeing the slaves later on... So even if the charter wasn't enforced from the beginning, it was eventually.

The price paid for beginning to correct that injustice was very, very high indeed.

But however high the price was, it was both appropriate and necessary. While I'm ashamed that we ever had slaves, I'm very proud that we stepped up to the injustice, acknowledged it, and then literally tore ourselves apart and reinvented ourselves to fix it. What was done doesn't necessarily make things "right" - you can't change the past - but it certainly put us on the right path for the future.

Heck, injustices performed by the USA abound. Just look at the native Americans, for example. But however imperfectly we execute the charter, it's still the basis for the US government, and is almost diametrically opposed to the charter for the skinheads. :)

(Edited to clarify some sentences.)
 
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Luke T. said:
Skeptics? :)

I'd look at the evidence, and so would other skeptics.
 
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CFLarsen said:
I'd look at the evidence, and so would other skeptics.

But are there not skeptics who believe or disbelieve things simply out of a dogmatic reflex and not evidence?
 
jmercer said:
Absolutely correct. :) And you hit a hot button with me, so - BANG! ;)

If the words (when penned) were meant to include slaves, then there was apparently a kind of hypocrisy going on. I say apparently, because we're discussing this without historical context. Without trying to determine if GW, et. al., meant that slavery should be abolished or not when they wrote the Declaration, the context of the situation (often overlooked) may give us some reasons for why the intention may not have matched the actions.

The thirteen colonies were fractious, independently-minded groups of people that didn't really get along. They were ultimately unified - not by a dream, or shared belief - but by a percieved common enemy and economic need brought on by the oppression of King George. Even if the intention to free the slaves was there, any effort made to abolish slavery would have dissolved this fragile union almost immediately. No revolution would have been fought. (In fact, things of far lesser significance - like personality conflicts - almost destroyed the alliance anyway.)

Post-revolution, the United States was still a very fragile and vulnerable entity whose primary focus was on simple survival. The economic engine was still greatly dependent on cheap labor (slavery), so subsequent leaders were not about to rock that particular boat.

This doesn't excuse or justify slavery in any way; all it hopefully does is help put into perspective why the possible intentions of the founding fathers didn't match their actions.

Ultimately, it was these specific words in that document which Lincoln used to justify launching a civil war and freeing the slaves later on... So even if the charter wasn't enforced from the beginning, it was eventually.

The price paid for beginning to correct that injustice was very, very high indeed.

But however high the price was, it was both appropriate and necessary. While I'm ashamed that we ever had slaves, I'm very proud that we stepped up to the injustice, acknowledged it, and then literally tore ourselves apart and reinvented ourselves to fix it. What was done doesn't necessarily make things "right" - you can't change the past - but it certainly put us on the right path for the future.

Heck, injustices performed by the USA abound. Just look at the native Americans, for example. But however imperfectly we execute the charter, it's still the basis for the US government, and is almost diametrically opposed to the charter for the skinheads. :)

(Edited to clarify some sentences.)

You strike me as someone who would very much enjoy Alexis de Tocqueville's Democracy in America.

I'm trying to infect the American population with it. :D
 
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Luke T. said:
But are there not skeptics who believe or disbelieve things simply out of a dogmatic reflex and not evidence?

It would depend on what they believed in.
 
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Luke T. said:
The atom bomb was dropped on an enemy waging war against the United States. The black airmen infected with syphillis were not combatants against the U.S.

I think if you ask any black person, Tuskegee is most certainly relevant. If it were your people who had been the subject of such experiments, you would certainly understand the mindset of "if they did it before..."

I'm sure the Jewish people keep a weather eye on neo-nazis for the same reasons.

I just couldn't let this inaccurate post go by. The Tuskegee Syphilis Study has nothing to do with the Tuskegee Airmen, and no one was infected with syphilis in the experiment. The experiment involved withholding treatment from black persons in the area of Tuskegee who were already infected. Not that this makes it any less horrible.


Tuskegee Syphilis Study
 
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HarryKeogh said:
gubmint? is that little racist jab really necessary, CF?

Actually, I usuallly see the word 'gubmint' or 'gub'mint' whent he writer is trying to imply a redneck dialect, not a black one. As in "Them gubmint black helicopters from the UN have been mutilatin' my cows"

I don't think racism was intended or implies there.
 
Luke T. said:
You strike me as someone who would very much enjoy Alexis de Tocqueville's Democracy in America.

I'm trying to infect the American population with it. :D

I'll have to try and get a copy. :)
 
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IXP said:
I just couldn't let this inaccurate post go by. The Tuskegee Syphilis Study has nothing to do with the Tuskegee Airmen, and no one was infected with syphilis in the experiment. The experiment involved withholding treatment from black persons in the area of Tuskegee who were already infected. Not that this makes it any less horrible.


Tuskegee Syphilis Study

I appreciate the correction. Thanks!
 
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IXP said:
I just couldn't let this inaccurate post go by. The Tuskegee Syphilis Study has nothing to do with the Tuskegee Airmen, and no one was infected with syphilis in the experiment. The experiment involved withholding treatment from black persons in the area of Tuskegee who were already infected. Not that this makes it any less horrible.


Tuskegee Syphilis Study

You know, I was wondering about that - I though that I remembered it that way, but I didn't have time to do the research and I didn't trust my memory. All I remembered for certain was that it was specifically done to study the long-term effects on blacks. Thanks.
 
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Luke T. said:
The atom bomb was dropped on an enemy waging war against the United States.


The Japanese civillians were? That's news to me.
 
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jzs said:


The Japanese civillians were? That's news to me. [/B]

Sounds like you need to do a little research on the state of the Japanese populace at that point in the war. Similar to what the Germans did at the end, the Japanese civilian populace was being prepared to fight to the death. Old men and boys were being trained to carry firearms, etc. There was no intention on the Japanese government's part to surrender to the Allies in the event of a landing on Japanese soil, and there were precious little choice that the civilian populace had about the whole thing.

You also need to consider that the US had informed the Japanese government of it's intentions several days prior to bombing the site; had dropped leaflets in Japan warning the populace to leave ALL targeted cities; and had made practice runs over Japan, proving that they could intrude on Japanese airspace at will.

Documents found after the surrender indicated that the Japanese government didn't believe the Americans had such a weapon - and after Hiroshima, they believed that we'd used the only such weapon we had. Tragically, Nagasaki proved them wrong, and they declined to find out if we had more of these ready to use.

I am certainly not condoning the bombing of civilians, but - without going into a history lesson - the allies were firmly convinced that the Japanese would not surrender, and would deal treacherously if given the slightest opening. After all, Japan had already issued a surrender offer to the Allies prior to the bombing. Unfortunately, it amounted to an ultimatum that can be paraphrased as "Leave us alone and we promise to leave you alone - no reparations, no war crime trials, and no disbanding of our military. Keep coming and we'll bleed you to death every step of the way."

Under the circumstances, the Allies decided to proceed with the bombing. I should also point out that the Axis powers (including the Japanese) killed more civilians in WWII than the Allies did, even including Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Holocaust alone ensured that.
 
By the USA charter which embraces equality, you mean the one that has the 3/5 rule, right?

I believe that provision was put in place because the south wanted to count slaves as full persons for census purposes. This would have padded the south's congressional delegation with a huge number of reps based on a population without a vote.

The 3/5 rule, while on its face a racist one, actually worked to protect the rest of the country from the ideas which made the slave states' policies repugnant.

Jeff
 

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