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Studies supporting homeopathy ?

El Greco

Summer worshipper
Joined
Nov 11, 2003
Messages
17,606
Are there any studies in support of homeopathy ? (I think there was such a review in Lancet ?) Is there any page dealing with such studies and pointing out their methodological faults or any other inconsistencies ?

I'm getting ready for a debate with a few "believers" and I want to be prepared for everything they might dig out...
 
From the post of mine that Geni linked to
I do have this information and I was going to put it all together to make a post to counter Xanta's spam "Kleijnen, Boissel and Linde!" posts, but I haven't got it organised.
I did in fact get it organised, and I was quite surprised to see that the post didn't come up when I did a search for it. I think it must have been dumped in the forum crash a few weeks ago.

However, it just so happens that I have my own computer in here at work just now (long story), and I just ran a search, and yes, the post is saved there as a text file. So when I get back home and connect the trusty notebook into the net, I'll be able to copy it over and re-post it. (The idea of burning it on a CD to move to this computer to post, or finding some dial-up connector from somewhere and trying to hack into a dial-up from work just doesn't appeal right this minute.)

See you later.

Rolfe.
 
El Greco said:

I'm getting ready for a debate with a few "believers" and I want to be prepared for everything they might dig out...

I am bit afraid of 'Summer worshipper'. Looks to become quite hot. ;)
 
Here is the re-post of the review of the homoeopathy meta-analyses. This pretty much covers it for positive evidence in mainstream journals, though if you get into the homoeopaths' own fanzines there's no end to the stuff you can find. Not blinded and controlled, usually, though - their idea of proof tends to the single-patient anecdote.

Maybe we need to look at the actual clinical evidence regarding homoeopathy. After all, if the remedies don't have any effect on the likelihood of patients recovering from disease, there's not much point speculating about mechanisms of action.

There have been quite a few meta-analyses and literature reviews over the years. The first one was totally negative.

Hill, C. and F. Doyon (1990) Review of Randomized Trials of Homoeopathy. Review D'Epidemilogie et de Sante Publique 38: 139-147.
In our opinion, the results do not provide acceptable evidence that homoeopathic treatments are effective.
The next believed that there might be something there, but couldn't really say because of the poor quality of most of the papers they'd reviewed. Remember, this is an entire system of medicine, but they couldn't be sure whether there was any effect there at all.

Kleijnen, J., P. Knipschild and G. ter Riet (1991) Clinical Trials of Homoeopathy. British Medical Journal 302: 316-23.
At the moment the evidence of clinical trials is positive but not sufficient to draw definitive conclusions because most trials are of low methodological quality and because of the unknown role of publication bias. This indicates that there is a legitimate case for further evaluation of homoeopathy, but only by means of well performed trials.
The homoeopathic community has three papers it regularly trots out in support of its case. This Kleijnen paper is the first, and the interesting point about that is that they usually claim that the authors state that the better the quality of the study design, the higher the chance of a positive result. In fact the paper says nothing of the sort. I suspect there is a homoeopathic resource page somewhere which makes this claim, and the proponents we encounted are merely copying information from that, with no concern whether it's right or wrong - Xanta virtually admitted as much. So, virtual Mars Bar to the first person to find this page and link to it!

The next paper to appear is never mentioned by the homoeopaths, and perhaps one can see why.

PRESCRIRE INTERNATIONAL (unattributed articles) (1996) Homeopathy update. Prescrire International 5:21.
Despite the large number of comparative trials carried out to date there is no evidence that homeopathy is any more effective than placebo therapy given in identical conditions.
The next paper is the one the homoeopaths like to boast about most. It's certainly the most positive mainstream publication they've ever had in their favour. But even this can't say for sure that there's any effect at all!

Linde, Klaus, Nicola Clausius, Gilbert Ramirez, Dieter Melchart, Florian Eitel et al. (1997) Are the Clinical Effects of Homoeopathy Placebo Effects? A Meta-Analysis of Placebo-Controlled Trials. Lancet 350: 834-43.
The results of our meta-analysis are not compatible with the hypothesis that the clinical effects of homeopathy are completely due to placebo. However, we found insufficient evidence from these studies that homeopathy is clearly efficacious for any single clinical condition. Further research on homeopathy is warranted provided it is rigorous and systematic.
However, several people found the first part of that statement a bit surprising, and had a closer look at the data, with the Bandolier article presenting a detailed analysis. The main point at issue was whether indeed there was no decline in the probability of a positive result with increasing quality of study design. Finally, goaded by the volume of critical comment, the original authors published what virtually amounted to a retraction.

Linde et al. (1999) Impact of Study Quality on Outcome in Placebo-Controlled Trials of Homeopathy. J. Clin. Epidemiol. 52: 7, 631-636.
We conclude that in the study set investigated, there was clear evidence that studies with better methodological quality tended to yield less positive results.
It's striking that when homoeopaths boast about the earlier Linde paper, they never get round to mentioning this one!

The third paper they present refers to a 1996 report to the European Commission on homoeopathy. This is usually represented as positive, however the 1996 document is not accessible online so I haven't been able to verify the quotes. They may be no more accurate than the representation of the Kleijnen study, for all I know. What is available is the peer-reviewed version which was published in 2000.

Cucherat M., Haugh, M. C., Gooch, M. & Boissel, J. P. (2000) Evidence of clinical efficacy of homeopathy. A meta-analysis of clinical trials. Eur. J. Clin. Pharmacol. 56(1): 27-33.
There is some evidence that homeopathic treatments are more effective than placebo; however, the strength of this evidence is low because of the low methodological quality of the trials. Studies of high methodological quality were more likely to be negative than the lower quality studies. Further high quality studies are needed to confirm these results.
A couple of years later another meta-analysis specifically collated the findings of these earlier papers, with paticular reference to the plethora of re-analyses of Linde's original data. Although the author of this review trained as a homoeopath, his opinion is not respected by the homoeopathic community!

ERNST, E. (2002) A systematic review of systematic reviews of homeopathy. Br. J. Clin. Pharmacol. 54, 577-582.
Collectively [the reviews] failed to provide strong evidence in favour of homeopathy. In particular, there was no condition which responds convincingly better to homeopathic treatment than to placebo or other control interventions. Similarly, there was no homeopathic remedy that was demonstrated to yield clinical effects that are convincingly different from placebo.
A sixth meta-analysis was published more recently.

ALMEIDA, R. M. (2003) A critical review of the possible benefits associated with homeopathic medicine. Rev. Hosp. Clin. Fac. Med. Sao Paulo, 58, 324-331.

This is very up-to-date, very penetrating, and the homoeopaths don't really seem to want to add it to their favourites list either.
As a result of the recent scientific research on homeopathy, it can be concluded that ample evidence exists to show that the homeopathic therapy is not scientifically justifiable.
It's worth repeating that these are reviews not of a single drug, or even a single class of drugs or treatment approach. Homoeopathy is represented as a complete system of medicine, and the best it can manage in the entire canon of scientific literature is the opinion (much disputed) that it's possible there might be something there, but nobody can say for sure, and better quality research is needed. More recently, some better-quality research has been done, and I'll reference some of that in a subsequent installment. (I intend to cover, in order, well-controlled individual clinical trials from the past 10 years; evidence for the existence of "proving" effects, and controlled trials in animals. Anyone who'd like to submit a likely candidate paper in any of these categories, please feel free.)

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
So, virtual Mars Bar to the first person to find this page and link to it!

can't remebr who found this:

http://www.trusthomeopathy.org/case/cas_met.html

- summaries of the three main studies

Kleijnen 1991
British Medical Journal. 107 trials. Criteria-based meta-analysis.
77% are positive
The higher the scientific merit of the study, the more likely it is to show homoeopathy as superior to placebo.
The evidence presented in this review would probably be sufficient for establishing homoeopathy as a regular treatment for certain conditions.
 
I have a quick question regarding one of the conclusions that Rolfe reported:

Collectively [the reviews] failed to provide strong evidence in favour of homeopathy. In particular, there was no condition which responds convincingly better to homeopathic treatment than to placebo or other control interventions. Similarly, there was no homeopathic remedy that was demonstrated to yield clinical effects that are convincingly different from placebo.

So we have

1) No condition responds convincingly better to homeopathic treatment than to placebo, and

2) No homeopathic remedy was demonstrated to yield clinical effects that are different from placebo.

Given that, why the qualifier in the conclusion that they "failed to provide _strong_ evidence in favour of homeopathy" (emphasis added)?

As far as I can see, from the other statements by the authors, the reviews have failed any evidence in favour of homeopathy! The best they have is unconvincing evidence that some conditions may respond better than with placebo. However, that evidence is not convincing, they say. Moreover, they also say that no homeopathic remedy examined is anything but placebo.

This is not an absence of _strong_ evidence. This is the absence of any evidence.
 
pgwenthold said:


This is not an absence of _strong_ evidence. This is the absence of any evidence.

There are a few papaers around that produce posertive results for homeoapthy. They just have this tendacy to be badly designed.
 
geni said:
That's certainly the page that Xanta keeps spamming the threads with. Including the bullet points which may or may not come out in her posts depending on the software she copies it into. So, consider yourself the recipient of said virtual Mars Bar.

Note the absence of links so nobody can see what they really said.

I'm not sure if that was the source of John Hoare's argument or not. He certainly has more citations than Xanta. This is from some way into the Veterinary Times thread. He'd quoted these references before, and Niall had debunked them in relatively veiled terms. Then Mark Goodman came in, presumably not having seen the first round of citations, and said that the homoeopaths' absence of references wasn't helping their argument. This provoked the predictable response.

And I'm grateful to Niall Taylor for his second, more explicit debunking, as he raised points I hadn't previously picked up on. Like Hill & Doyon. These two letters are worth a read, as they are good examples of a typical homoeopathic apologia, and an expert demolition of same.

Rolfe.
 
pgwenthold said:
This is not an absence of _strong_ evidence. This is the absence of any evidence.
This raises an interesting point. There are two questions regarding homoeopathy, and they are to a certain extent separate.

The one we often focus on is, is there any effect whatsoever. Because that's the interesting thing from a scientific point of view. Given that there's no content in the remedies, do they do anything at all? Because if they do, they have just driven the proverbial coach and horses through "science as we know it". The homoeopaths realise this, and hype like mad any suggestion of any effect that looks as if it might be statistically significant, so they can trumpet, look, it's true, there is something there.

The thing is, it's not that hard to make it look as if there might be something somewhere, if you do a large enough number of trials, particularly if you're not too fussy about rigorous control, clear-cut design and even strict veracity. (The tendency of homoeopaths to lie is really quite a shock whan you first come across it, and people who review scientific papers are extraordinarily reluctant to suggest that an author might be lying, but the track record of the homoeopaths does suggest this cannot be discounted.) So, there will always be these fuzzy "maybes", effects that fade into the borders of statistical noise when anyone attempts to replicate them. And these are what the homoeopaths cling to in order to refute the assertion that the remedies can do nothing, because they're content-free. And then they extrapolate this to assume that, if they can somehow create a basis to stand on that the method isn't completely imaginary/paranormal, then of course all their claims must be true.

Rubbish.

Because the main claims of homoeopathy aren't for tiny statistical effects that show there's something in shaken-up hyper-dilute water, so look out conventional physics and chemistry, they're for dramatic, self-evident clinical effects, in fact for repeated miracle cures.

Now if there was the slightest truth to these claims, there would be no rouble at all in demonstrating an effect in a controlled trial. If the ambivalent meta-analyses do anything at all, they knock any such claims bang on the head. If homoeopathy can cure cancer, or epilepsy, or Pasteurella pneumonia, or any of the other conditions involved in the single-case anecdotes the homoeopaths trot out, then it should be a piece of cake to show an effect. These claims aren't subtle. They're either true or they're not. And obviously, the verdict is "not".

As Bandolier has pointed out, "Much of the argument about homeopathy ends up being about trivial differences of little or no clinical relevance", and "If this is the best they can do, why bother?" The argument about whether or not there is a tiny effect there of interest to theoretical physicists may rage forever. But regarding whether there is an effect which can provide a clinically significant benefit - forget it.

(Funny thing. Yesterday evening I was the guest of the author who wrote up the case of the alleged homoeopathically-cured epileptic dog. He is the senior partner and general head honcho of one of our best client practices, and I went to his surgery with a colleague to give his staff an educational evening about laboratory investigations in dogs and cats. He's a lovely chap, and doesn't seem to have the slightest woo tendency. The letter was published all of 20 years ago. I've often had more than a tiny suspicion that the tongue might have been in the cheek all along, saying in a way, look what a coincidence. But I've never quite had the nerve to raise the subject with him!)

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
The argument about whether or not there is a tiny effect there of interest to theoretical physicists may rage forever.
I doubt it. There's no physics debate raging at all. What we've got is a couple of kooks who are waving their hands and shouting "quantum mechanics" in an entirely content-free manner. Besides us, nobody's noticed them, and if they were all abducted by aliens tomorrow, I doubt even most homeopaths would notice they were gone.

To the extent that physicists address kookery at all, it's mostly dealing with free energy, cold fusion, and age-of-universe questions...

Hmm.... homeopathy and free energy... maybe those cars that supposedly run on water are actually running on homeopathic dilutions of gasoline...
 
This;

www.york.ac.uk/inst/crd/ehc73.pdf

seems to be missng of the reference lists. Yet another failure to show any evidence for homeopathy tha really stands up to scrutiny. The funny thing is that they had woos on the advisory board. I don't suppose it has stopped the hypocrites from continuing to practice their crminal-decpetions-disguised-as-medicine.

Ooh, look. I'd not noticed this before;

"This bulletin is based on an
overview of systematic reviews
conducted by Susan O'Meara,
Paul Wilson, Chris Bridle,
Jos Kleijnen and Kath Wright at
the NHS Centre for Reviews and
Dissemination, University of York."

Those woos have kept that quiet!
 
Zombified said:
I doubt it. There's no physics debate raging at all. What we've got is a couple of kooks who are waving their hands and shouting "quantum mechanics" in an entirely content-free manner.
Well, that's what I meant, really. The physicists aren't interested because they know there's nothing there. However, there's always some kook like Benveniste coming along with some artefact or statistical fluke or simple massaged figures, and publishing a paper alleging a tiny "effect" for the homoeos to get stuck into. For example, look at these references, quoted by a homoeopath. Gosh, there's a tiny effect reported in these (dubious-looking) papers, so all my magic sugar pills must be effective!

Rolfe.
 
Badly Shaved Monkey said:
This;

www.york.ac.uk/inst/crd/ehc73.pdf

seems to be missng of the reference lists.
Thank you, BSM, I'd forgotten about that one. I'm not sure it's refereed, nevertheless it's a reputable publication.

The funny bit is, when I first posted the (lost) version of that list, QXanta jumped on the last one (Almeida) with glee, denouncing him as a homoeopath-hater, which of course meant that everything he said could be safely ignored.

It's true that Almeida was briefly suspended from his job some time last year until he apologised for saying something a bit intemperate about homoeopaths and their beliefs. I'm not sure if Xanta knew that though. However, if they can dismiss all evidence coming from people who are anti-homoeopathy, then by the same token we dismiss everything coming from the pro-homoeopaths - like all these tedious "patient benefit surveys" which merely report that about 70% of people treated homoeopathically are at least too polite to tell their "physicians" that they didn't experience even the slightest benefit - and so there is no evidence left.

Anyway, Xanta got stuck into Almeida's very comprehensive reference list, decided that some of the wackier entries supported her point of view, and we were treated to a completely new stream of spam, which made a change at least.

I wonder where she's gone?

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
Thank you, BSM, I'd forgotten about that one. I'm not sure it's refereed, nevertheless it's a reputable publication.

IAs far as I can tell it's kind of outside the refereed journal world, but its being prduced by a committee of notables provides it wit a pretty good defence


Anyway, Xanta got stuck into Almeida's very comprehensive reference list, decided that some of the wackier entries supported her point of view, and we were treated to a completely new stream of spam, which made a change at least.

I wonder where she's gone?

I would hate to wish illness on her, but do you suppose she might be ill again and slinked away like all their other failed patients, of whom you and I know examples, who disappear to follow-up but are blithely assumed by the hom to be cured.
 

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