StopSylvia: Finally!

[RSLancastr]

They are sir thank you! I very much hope things are going well for you!

Thank you! I've had better years, but I've had much worse. 2008 comes to mind...

I hope you are kicking that stroke in the butt and hard!

Probably not as hard as I should, but I can only kick with my right leg yet. My Better Half keeps me kicking, though!

 

[RSLancastr]

Well I agree with you that ExMinister is a wonderful lady.
I disagree however that I bullied her in anyway.
I hope she does not think this! I have a lot respect for Ex as I do for you!

My post in this thread was not meant to bully anyone.
But rather to help that poster see that Sylvia Browne held no power over them or controlled their actions in any way.

Well. perhaps "bullying" isn't quite the right word. My vocabulary isn't as...something...as it once was. Once, in the hospital after the stroke, I was struggling to remember the word for something. when I finally remembered the word was "vocabulary" I couldn't stop laughing. later I joked with my doctor that I couldn't ever remember the name for a condition he had diagnosed me as having. The condition was anomia, a difficulty in recalling words - especially names of people and things. after he told me I suffered from anomia, I decided that if I ever wrote an autobiography, I might title it The Anomic Anosmic Agnostic. the entire first three chapters would be devoted to explaining the title.

But, are you "bullying"? there is a word or phrase which describes what I see as your behavior here. Something like "ungracious in victory", or perhaps simply "sore winner." You aren't satisfied with the fact that ExMinister, TruthSeeker and now, Francine, are now on what you and I see as "the right side of the fence" on this issue. No, you insist that they totally agree with you on precisely how they got on "the wrong side of the fence" to begin with!

Your behavior has been described in this thread as Bullying, Arrogant and self-righteous. whether you agree with those adjectives or not, perhaps you would do well to consider the fact that you are being perceived that way. And, in at least two of the cases, perceived that way by people you say you respect. Perhaps that should give you pause.

By doing this they can get out of the victim mindset and move on with their lives.
Hopefully with a new world view that is very hard to come by. Ex is living proof of this.

I assume you mean by this the way ExM has come to apply skepticism to other things in her life. This is obviously the ideal outcome, but ExM did not get where she is today because some skeptic harrassed her into accepting that she was to blame for her belief in Browne. No, I think she got there (here) because she, for whatever reason, became genuinely interested in skepticism and critical thinking. She asked me to recommend some books on the subject. I did, then she read Sagan, and his book made so much sense to her that she could not get enough of books on the subject, and never looked back. It was Sagan's calm, thoughtful approach (the opposite of bullying), and, just maybe, something in my approach, that made skepticism and critical thinking attractive to her. But, had Mr. sagan and I insisted that she confess her blame in What made her Wooish, and especially had we done so in a public forum, ExM may not have continued down the path she is now on. And we would all be the poorer for it. I don't think that public humiliation is a good way to change someone's mind about anything. And that is precisely the approach you seem to be using.

Lurkers will do what ever they will do I hold no responsibility for their actions.
People on the fence are there for a reason.
That reason has nothing to do with me. You give me far to much credit.

Like it or not Brattus, Fair or not, when any of us here engage in a conversation with a "believer", we become, to them, and to some onlookers, The Face of Skepticism. How they perceive us can (and often, does) lead them to decide whether or not skepticism is something they want to embrace.

Sorry about the homepage. It's an old dead link I forgot about.

I figured.

Thank you for reminding me of it! Very nice of you!

I followed it from your profile, hoping to learn more about you, and just thought you might appreciate a reminder that it needed fixing. That's all! I probably should have done so in a PM, sorry.

 

[Mojo]

But, are you "bullying"? there is a word or phrase which describes what I see as your behavior here. Something like "ungracious in victory", or perhaps simply "sore winner."

Or, as Phil Plait might put it, "being a dick".

 

[RSLancastr]

Well that is great! I'm glad you see that you caused the Sylvia Browne problem in your life and not Sylvia Browne.

There you go again! Francine admitted that her belief in Browne was her fault. Rather than graciously accepting that she was agr'eeing with you, you had to rub her nose in it by amplifying it, saying that she had seen that she had "caused the problem" when that was not quite what she said.

You have taken the first steps to a much more fulfilling life.
I am happy for you! No, I am not being sarcastic. I am happy for you.

whether you MEANT it sarcastically or not, that is PRECISELY how it READS, disclaimer notwithstanding.

Now lets get one thing very clear. I don't care if Sylvia Browne lived next door to me I would never and could never fall for any of that stupid crap she or any of her like pimps off.

I'd like to think that my skeptical studies and endeavors have "innoculated" me so that I would not turn to a psychic no matter how dire my circumstances. But I can't know that for a fact. There was a time when one of my adult children was missing, and the evidence strongly suggested that she had attempted, or was going to attempt suicide. during that horrific (but mercifully short) time she was missing, I spoke with the police who were searching for her. I watched the police helicopter circling overhead looking for her, shining its searchlight down on us. I followed a police dog and its handler through a wooded area, wondering what I would do if we came upon her body. At no moment during all of this did I even consider the possibility of consulting a psychic. But, with only that brief taste of what families of missing people go through, sometimes for years on end, I can't even imagine what years and years of that might lead me, in desperation to do. I have no idea what events in Francine's life led her to a point where Browne's nonsense seemed feasible, mayb'e even attractive to her. I don't know, and neither do you. Nor can you know with certainty what you would do if Browne "lived next door to you at just the right/wrong time in your life.

Is that because I am smarter than you? No. Is it because I am stronger willed than you? No. Is it because a part of my brain is working where a part of yours is not? No.

It is because I have no need for it but you do. There lies the problem.
That is what SB and her like prey on.

Brattus, even if you are right, francine DID have the need for it. past tense. And, again, even if you are right, you have no idea what led to that need. And I think that your rubbing her nose in that need has a high probability of being counterproductive. Just a thought.

There are no short cuts in life. No one can see the future because if one could then we would all be able to.

How does THAT follow? If one person has an ability doesn't mean that we ALL should have it.

You want to know why your persona on this forum turns me the wrong way? Fine, I'll tell you.
All these post from these posters telling me how mean I am and how I don't understand. How uncaring I am and how I need to embrace these poor victims needs or not post at all.

But I do understand. It's you who doesn't get it. You don't get it at all.

Brattus, if you "get" what we are saying to you, you show no sign of "getting it" at all.

People have been really hurt by this crooked con artist and you helped her do it. You cheered her on. You more than likely profited from it. Now you come on here and say she's a crook and you might be able to help out by giving inside information.

How you do this is by giving yourself the name Francine and prance around the SB threads
calling yourself her spirit guide like it's some kind of game or a joke.

And taking on the name and persona of "Francine" obviously was a bit of a joke, as well as a "thumbing his/her nose" at Browne.

Sorry but that is just pathetic and you should be ashamed of yourself!

I disagree with you STRONGLY on both counts. And I think you might agree that I am in this a bit deeper than you.

I have the up most respect for Mr. Lancaster IMO he is the best internet writer I have ever read.[/QUOTE]
Well, thanks!

That being said when it comes to Sylvia Browne and her like Mr. Lancaster's view is not the only one out there.

True, but when it comes to Browne, I have much more knowledge and experience than most here, including you. And I would greatly appreciate it if you would just follow my lead on this. If Francine does indeed have "inside information" (and I am convinced that he/she does), there is great potential advantage to his/her posting here, and your behavior towards him/her might well drive him/her off. A great potential loss to the cause of shining a light into Browne's dark corner.
If you indeed have the utmost respect for me in regards to my writings on Browne, PLEASE let Francine post without your badgering her as you have been doing. PLEASE.

The SB threads on this forum are not extensions of his website.

I have my own view on it and have every much the right to raise my voice and speak them on this forum as Mr. Lancaster does.

I don't think that I, or anyone here, has said nor implied that you don't have the RIGHT to do and say what you have been doing and saying. But having the right to do or say something does not mean it is the right thing to do or say.
If other posters don't like my view well to bad for them.

There are many points of view discussed on this forum that I don't agree with but I would never tell any poster not to post their opinion on that point of view.

But if someone was doing or saying things which just might sabotage something you had worked on hundreds of hours over four years' time, mightn't you politely ask them to reconsider their approach?

So quit your crying and buck up.

I'll consider that. Just consider what I have said.

 

[RSLancastr]

Or, as Phil Plait might put it, "being a dick".

But being a dick in a very specific way

 

[Brattus]

There you go again! Francine admitted that her belief in Browne was her fault. Rather than graciously accepting that she was agr'eeing with you, you had to rub her nose in it by amplifying it, saying that she had seen that she had "caused the problem" when that was not quite what she said.

Well she did cause the problem didn't she? I'm not her friend. I don't even know her and I don't want to know her.
I am on a forum I like and made a comment on a post that caught my interest on that forum.
You write as if I am some how obligated to pussyfoot around her wittle problem. I am not.

whether you MEANT it sarcastically or not, that is PRECISELY how it READS, disclaimer notwithstanding.

Well if me typing I'm happy for you sounds sarcastic then that tells me that everything I type no matter what it is will sound sarcastic to you and your faithful followers.
Since I have no control over that then there is no need to comment on it.

I'd like to think that my skeptical studies and endeavors have "innoculated" me so that I would not turn to a psychic no matter how dire my circumstances. But I can't know that for a fact. There was a time when one of my adult children was missing, and the evidence strongly suggested that she had attempted, or was going to attempt suicide. during that horrific (but mercifully short) time she was missing, I spoke with the police who were searching for her. I watched the police helicopter circling overhead looking for her, shining its searchlight down on us. I followed a police dog and its handler through a wooded area, wondering what I would do if we came upon her body. At no moment during all of this did I even consider the possibility of consulting a psychic. But, with only that brief taste of what families of missing people go through, sometimes for years on end, I can't even imagine what years and years of that might lead me, in desperation to do. I have no idea what events in Francine's life led her to a point where Browne's nonsense seemed feasible, mayb'e even attractive to her. I don't know, and neither do you. Nor can you know with certainty what you would do if Browne "lived next door to you at just the right/wrong time in your life.

I am very happy your daughter was ok. (I hope you don't read that sarcastically.)
But I have stated many times my point of view does not apply to the desperate people of lost loved ones. Here it is again perhaps this time someone will read it and not cherry pick over it.
However when I say lost I do not mean that they know their loved one is dead and they are trying to contact them on the other side.
That is just foolish.
I DO know what I would do if Sylvia Browne lived next door to me. I would do the same thing I'm doing now. Living my life.
She is just an old lady. She is a person like any other. The only exception is she is a sociopath with no conscious.
Some people like that become serial killers others become preachers and she became a TV psychic.
Francine latched on to SBs BS because she was looking for someone to do the work for her. To make the decisions in her life for her.
Because she is to weak willed to walk her own path like she should be doing.
Just because she now thinks SB is a crook does not mean she isn't out there looking for someone else to follow.

Brattus, even if you are right, francine DID have the need for it. past tense. And, again, even if you are right, you have no idea what led to that need. And I think that your rubbing her nose in that need has a high probability of being counterproductive. Just a thought.

Counterproductive to what? Once again I am not her friend or her daddy.
I am not on this forum to help anybody. I come here to read and post things that interest me.
The way SB and RSL believers put everything off on Sylvia Browne and make her solely responsible for their pain interest me so I comment on it.
I don't owe anyone here anything other than following the forum rules like everyone else.

How does THAT follow? If one person has an ability doesn't mean that we ALL should have it.

Sure it does. Unless a part of our body is not working like it should.
We are all given the same things to work with.
There is no part of the human brain that is unused or untapped that someone who can tap in can use to see the future with.
Hence if there was a part of the brain that could be used for that purpose we would all have it unless a person suffered some kind of brain damage.

Brattus, if you "get" what we are saying to you, you show no sign of "getting it" at all.

All that time and work you have put in Robert and you don't even get it.
Shame really.
Perhaps you should take a break and converse the others about anything and everything except TV psychics?
It could work wonders on your perspective.

And taking on the name and persona of "Francine" obviously was a bit of a joke, as well as a "thumbing his/her nose" at Browne.

But it's not a joke at all. It's not that far off of the bad taste scale as a pedophile coming on the forum using the name babysitter.
Say they would like to babysit some kids.
Also it's not SB she is thumbing her nose at.
The fact that you can't see this tells me you are in to deep.
Forest through the trees stuff.

I disagree with you STRONGLY on both counts. And I think you might agree that I am in this a bit deeper than you.

Too deep.

True, but when it comes to Browne, I have much more knowledge and experience than most here, including you. And I would greatly appreciate it if you would just follow my lead on this. If Francine does indeed have "inside information" (and I am convinced that he/she does), there is great potential advantage to his/her posting here, and your behavior towards him/her might well drive him/her off. A great potential loss to the cause of shining a light into Browne's dark corner.
If you indeed have the utmost respect for me in regards to my writings on Browne, PLEASE let Francine post without your badgering her as you have been doing. PLEASE..

I have posted about her post 3 times Robert. That is badgering?
She has posted many many times without me caring or responding in any way.
What is this shining light? We already know she is a fraud and a crook.
Is there any more information we need than that?
Do we really need to know what Sylvia eats for breakfast or what car she drives?
No we don't.

I don't think that I, or anyone here, has said nor implied that you don't have the RIGHT to do and say what you have been doing and saying. But having the right to do or say something does not mean it is the right thing to do or say.

Telling me repeatably to not post on SB threads is not implying that I don't post on SB threads?
Gotta lose those blinders Robert.

But if someone was doing or saying things which just might sabotage something you had worked on hundreds of hours over four years' time, mightn't you politely ask them to reconsider their approach?

I'll consider that. Just consider what I have said.

Just because I respect you does not mean I agree with everything you say or do.
I hate to bust your bubble but with all your hard work and time you have done just as much as I have at stopping Sylvia Browne.
Which is to say not at all. Not even a little.

But I not only respect you I like you as a person. Your heart is in the right place and you are no doubt a better man than I.
So OK, I give you my word to never post my real thoughts on another SB thread on this forum again.

I am happy your health is doing better!

 

[ExMinister]

Since my name has been mentioned here a few times, let me just say that:

Brattus, I do not recall ever feeling bullied by you. Over the past years since I first got here in 2007 I have felt insulted, belittled, and misunderstood, but not, I don't think, bullied. As I have gotten to know you better, and you me, I think we have come to understand each other's points of view a bit better than we did at first, though. That's my take on it.

I don't think insulting or belittling a believer is helpful in any way, nor do I think coddling is helpful. I advocate polite non-coddling. I came to this forum respectfully, I did not discuss my beliefs in the beginning if I knew I wasn't yet ready to have them picked apart, and I was interested in learning to say what I mean and have my statements criticized if they were not logical or evidence based. I learned that way and it helped me grow, even if it felt awkward at times.

No one coddled me, but most people here were also friendly and welcoming. That came to mean a lot to me since the more I delved into science and skepticism, the less I had in common with anyone I knew outside this forum. I would hate to see any believers scared away before they have had a chance to feel welcome here since a forum like this can be a great support when you're going through a major process like this.

I also believe strongly that RSL's web site HAS changed lives. People need facts. Having a well-meaning someone tell them they shouldn't believe in Sylvia Browne because it's just stupid is not helpful. Having someone point them to RSL's web site and explain cold reading and Browne's actual success rate IS helpful. That's just my opinion, I know, but I have also heard Sylvia's own people attribute her loss of business to Robert's work.

I for one did appreciate Francine's sense of humor and I do value her insight into Sylvia Browne. RSL is right. I think bringing the truth to light is always valuable, the more the better. Who knows what piece of information is going to be the one that finally wakes someone up? What seems trivial and insignificant to me might be profoundly important to someone else.

Those differences remind me of something else that is important to keep in mind. There are many reasons people believe wooish things. There's been a whole book on it -in fact there are many of them, Michael Shermer's book Why People Believe Weird Things being one.

To imply that everyone who is taken in by Sylvia Browne did so because they were weak-willed and wanted someone else to make their decisions for them is to completely over-simplify the situation.

There may be many contributing factors. Notice I am not saying these things are removing responsibility from the person, but I'm just pointing out that it's more complicated.

- Granted, they may be looking for answers or guidance from outside themselves, a decision-making crutch
- They may have been raised to believe in pyschics and mediums and take such things for granted, so that such a belief is not weak willed as much as uninformed
- They may have had what they interpreted to be psychic or spiritual experiences themselves, so that the claims of someone like Browne don't seem extraordinary to them
- They may be drawn to the community surrounding such a person, believing that others have shared their strange experiences and relieved at finding common meaning in them
- They may be drawn to a spiritual philosophy and world view that they believe is true and positive and empowering
- They may have no idea how to recognize a con artist and they may have no idea that cold reading even exists
- They may believe the average psychic's claims to accuracy and abilities since these people use a great deal of deception. Take the claim of having helped police solve crimes. It is easy to think, if you've never looked into it, that they can't ALL be lying. And don't we occasionally see police corroborating these claims on TV? Think of Dorothy Allison and the New Jersey police who are standing with her in the photo on the back cover of her book.
- They may, like me, fail to realize that it is human nature to seek out people and ideas that support your already existing beliefs. It wasn't until I began to actively seek out ideas that might contradict, even disprove, my own beliefs that I really began to grow.
- And so on.

 

[ExMinister]

Well I agree with you that ExMinister is a wonderful lady.
I disagree however that I bullied her in anyway.
I hope she does not think this! I have a lot respect for Ex as I do for you!

Thanks, Brattus!

Well. perhaps "bullying" isn't quite the right word. My vocabulary isn't as...something...as it once was. Once, in the hospital after the stroke, I was struggling to remember the word for something. when I finally remembered the word was "vocabulary" I couldn't stop laughing. later I joked with my doctor that I couldn't ever remember the name for a condition he had diagnosed me as having. The condition was anomia, a difficulty in recalling words - especially names of people and things. after he told me I suffered from anomia, I decided that if I ever wrote an autobiography, I might title it The Anomic Anosmic Agnostic. the entire first three chapters would be devoted to explaining the title.

(snipped for brevity)

I assume you mean by this the way ExM has come to apply skepticism to other things in her life. This is obviously the ideal outcome, but ExM did not get where she is today because some skeptic harrassed her into accepting that she was to blame for her belief in Browne. No, I think she got there (here) because she, for whatever reason, became genuinely interested in skepticism and critical thinking. She asked me to recommend some books on the subject. I did, then she read Sagan, and his book made so much sense to her that she could not get enough of books on the subject, and never looked back. It was Sagan's calm, thoughtful approach (the opposite of bullying), and, just maybe, something in my approach, that made skepticism and critical thinking attractive to her. But, had Mr. sagan and I insisted that she confess her blame in What made her Wooish, and especially had we done so in a public forum, ExM may not have continued down the path she is now on. And we would all be the poorer for it. I don't think that public humiliation is a good way to change someone's mind about anything. And that is precisely the approach you seem to be using.

Exactly right. It was your approach, and that of Carl Sagan, that drew me in. Then I fell in love with rationality.

And I like your book title!

 

[RSLancastr]

Exactly right. It was your approach, and that of Carl Sagan, that drew me in. Then I fell in love with rationality.

See, the ladies are drawn in by my approach, then usually fall in love with something/someone else. I somehow distracted Susan with misdirection or something so she would fall in love with me. Poor Susan...

 

[Brattus]

Since my name has been mentioned here a few times, let me just say that:

Brattus, I do not recall ever feeling bullied by you. Over the past years since I first got here in 2007 I have felt insulted, belittled, and misunderstood, but not, I don't think, bullied. As I have gotten to know you better, and you me, I think we have come to understand each other's points of view a bit better than we did at first, though. That's my take on it.

I don't think insulting or belittling a believer is helpful in any way, nor do I think coddling is helpful. I advocate polite non-coddling. I came to this forum respectfully, I did not discuss my beliefs in the beginning if I knew I wasn't yet ready to have them picked apart, and I was interested in learning to say what I mean and have my statements criticized if they were not logical or evidence based. I learned that way and it helped me grow, even if it felt awkward at times.

No one coddled me, but most people here were also friendly and welcoming. That came to mean a lot to me since the more I delved into science and skepticism, the less I had in common with anyone I knew outside this forum. I would hate to see any believers scared away before they have had a chance to feel welcome here since a forum like this can be a great support when you're going through a major process like this.

I also believe strongly that RSL's web site HAS changed lives. People need facts. Having a well-meaning someone tell them they shouldn't believe in Sylvia Browne because it's just stupid is not helpful. Having someone point them to RSL's web site and explain cold reading and Browne's actual success rate IS helpful. That's just my opinion, I know, but I have also heard Sylvia's own people attribute her loss of business to Robert's work.

I for one did appreciate Francine's sense of humor and I do value her insight into Sylvia Browne. RSL is right. I think bringing the truth to light is always valuable, the more the better. Who knows what piece of information is going to be the one that finally wakes someone up? What seems trivial and insignificant to me might be profoundly important to someone else.

Those differences remind me of something else that is important to keep in mind. There are many reasons people believe wooish things. There's been a whole book on it -in fact there are many of them, Michael Shermer's book Why People Believe Weird Things being one.

To imply that everyone who is taken in by Sylvia Browne did so because they were weak-willed and wanted someone else to make their decisions for them is to completely over-simplify the situation.

There may be many contributing factors. Notice I am not saying these things are removing responsibility from the person, but I'm just pointing out that it's more complicated.

- Granted, they may be looking for answers or guidance from outside themselves, a decision-making crutch
- They may have been raised to believe in pyschics and mediums and take such things for granted, so that such a belief is not weak willed as much as uninformed
- They may have had what they interpreted to be psychic or spiritual experiences themselves, so that the claims of someone like Browne don't seem extraordinary to them
- They may be drawn to the community surrounding such a person, believing that others have shared their strange experiences and relieved at finding common meaning in them
- They may be drawn to a spiritual philosophy and world view that they believe is true and positive and empowering
- They may have no idea how to recognize a con artist and they may have no idea that cold reading even exists
- They may believe the average psychic's claims to accuracy and abilities since these people use a great deal of deception. Take the claim of having helped police solve crimes. It is easy to think, if you've never looked into it, that they can't ALL be lying. And don't we occasionally see police corroborating these claims on TV? Think of Dorothy Allison and the New Jersey police who are standing with her in the photo on the back cover of her book.
- They may, like me, fail to realize that it is human nature to seek out people and ideas that support your already existing beliefs. It wasn't until I began to actively seek out ideas that might contradict, even disprove, my own beliefs that I really began to grow.
- And so on.

I'm glad this new journey you are on is working well for you!

I would like to think that we had become some what forum friends.
I did not think that anything I had typed to you was belittling or insulting.
If you took any of what I typed as such then I am sorry that I unintentionally hurt your feelings.

There are several points you made in the quoted text I disagree with.
There are also points I agree with.
But because I don't wish to be interpreted as being insulting or bulling to you or RSL I am going to hold my tongue and seek my interest elsewhere on the forum.

I would like to say this one last thing.
I did NOT ever join any kind of Stop Sylvia Browne club and it is NOT required that you do in order to join this forum.
I am not here to help or save anyone.
I don't care if these ding-a-lings give all their money to Sylvia Browne.
Why should I? There is nothing wrong with feeling that way either.

Even if I supported Sylvia Browne I should be able to come into a SB thread and share my thoughts as long as I follow the forum rules.
Do so without being gang attacked, called names and told to leave.

By doing these things the main posters on the SB threads reduce this most awesome forum down to the level of some pro Sylvia Browne forum.

Anyway I will haunt the halls of the Sylvia Browne threads no more.
Good luck! You're gonna need it!

 

[ExMinister]

I'm glad this new journey you are on is working well for you!

I would like to think that we had become some what forum friends.
I did not think that anything I had typed to you was belittling or insulting.
If you took any of what I typed as such then I am sorry that I unintentionally hurt your feelings.

There are several points you made in the quoted text I disagree with.
There are also points I agree with.
But because I don't wish to be interpreted as being insulting or bulling to you or RSL I am going to hold my tongue and seek my interest elsewhere on the forum.

I would like to say this one last thing.
I did NOT ever join any kind of Stop Sylvia Browne club and it is NOT required that you do in order to join this forum.
I am not here to help or save anyone.
I don't care if these ding-a-lings give all their money to Sylvia Browne.
Why should I? There is nothing wrong with feeling that way either.

Even if I supported Sylvia Browne I should be able to come into a SB thread and share my thoughts as long as I follow the forum rules.
Do so without being gang attacked, called names and told to leave.

By doing these things the main posters on the SB threads reduce this most awesome forum down to the level of some pro Sylvia Browne forum.

Anyway I will haunt the halls of the Sylvia Browne threads no more.
Good luck! You're gonna need it!

No worries, Brattus. As I said, you are not bullying me. You and I have disagreed lots of times and we have debated many things, we've agreed plenty of times, too, and while I still disagree with your approach to ex-Sylvia believers in these threads, like you, I think we have become forum friends.

I think we just have one important difference here. It occurred to me when you said that you are not here to help or save anyone but to enjoy the forum and speak your mind, all of which is great.

We just have different goals. I participate in the Sylvia Browne threads in the hope that other ex-fans or even on-the-fence fans are lurking and reading, on the chance that it will help them discover what she's all about and even perhaps to go one step further and find skepticism and critical thinking appealing, like I did. Probably RSL is hoping for a similar outcome. Your approach (at times) seems likely to produce the opposite result is all, and that can be frustrating to those of us who are hoping for something different. Just as it's probably frustrating for you not to feel welcome to speak your thoughts as freely as you can in most any other thread. Neither is there a rule anywhere that participants in Browne threads have to share the same goals. Anyway, I think that's where some of the frustration has arisen on both sides.

 

[RSLancastr]

Well she did cause the problem didn't she?

You and I have gone a few rounds on this. I think you are "blaming the victim", and you think I am absolving them of a portion of the blame you feel they should own up to. For the sake of this post, let's say you are right, and that believers are at least partly to blame for buying into Browne's nonsense. I see no benefit to making them confess to this - especially in a public forum. I think you believe it is necessary in order to help keep them from falling for the next psychic that comes along.

I'm not her friend. I don't even know her and I don't want to know her.

That's you right, but I also think that's your loss. Maybe Francine's too.

As each of the ex-Novus people contacted me on SSB, I tried to get to know them, to connect with them on some level. And to understand a little about how they got involved with Browne. I hoped that understanding more about that might make me better equipped to write on the site in a way that would engage others in similar situations. Maybeit did, maybe it didn't. Regardless, I got to be friends with some of them, such as ExM, in a way that extended beyond the goals of SSB. The fact that I received cards and gifts in the hospital from ex-ministers in Browne's church, is something I don't think any of us could have foreseen back when this all started. I even had two ex-Novus ministers sitting with me for much of TAM8, who helped wheel me around in my chair when Susan was busy elsewhere. Back in 2001 I made many friends when I was the "token skeptic" on a John Edward fan forum. Some of the "believers" there, such as my friend Julia (wasapi here) are people I speak with on the phone fairly regularly to this day. Julia was a desperately-needed shoulder for me to cry on, and ear for me to bend, when I went through my divorce with my first wife. And, speaking of wives, My Susan was a believer in Browne, Edward and VanPraagh when we met. Now she is my greatest supporter in my skeptical endeavors, and in life! I guess what I am saying is: don't be so hasty to discard someone as a potential friend just because they believe(d) in a psychic. You may be throwing away some incredible friendships.

I am on a forum I like and made a comment on a post that caught my interest on that forum.
You write as if I am some how obligated to pussyfoot around her wittle problem. I am not.

No, but as a human being, I would hope you would feel obligated no not be an ass to her either. Saying "her wittle problem" being the most recent example of that.
Back to you seemingly believing that someone owning up to what you believe is their portion of the blame for believing in Browne. If you think, as I posited above, that this is necessary in order for them to not believe in the next psychic that comes along - I disagree. I honestly believe that the only thing that will "innoculate" someone against that is showing them how to think critically about such things, which is part of what I try to do on SSB.

Well if me typing I'm happy for you sounds sarcastic then that tells me that everything I type no matter what it is will sound sarcastic to you and your faithful followers.
Since I have no control over that then there is no need to comment on it.

I think that to anyone who has read much of your posts, your "I'm glad for you" came across as sarcastic. You seemed to realize this, as you immediately added that you were NOT being sarcastic.

I am very happy your daughter was ok. (I hope you don't read that sarcastically.)
But I have stated many times my point of view does not apply to the desperate people of lost loved ones. Here it is again perhaps this time someone will read it and not cherry pick over it.
However when I say lost I do not mean that they know their loved one is dead and they are trying to contact them on the other side.
That is just foolish.

I think it is more human than foolish.

I DO know what I would do if Sylvia Browne lived next door to me. I would do the same thing I'm doing now. Living my life.

I thought it would involve a flaming bag of poo...

She is just an old lady. She is a person like any other. The only exception is she is a sociopath with no conscious.

Kind of a big exception, I'd think.

Some people like that become serial killers others become preachers and she became a TV psychic.
Francine latched on to SBs BS because she was looking for someone to do the work for her. To make the decisions in her life for her.

So, Brattus, when are you taking YOUR psychic act on TV?

Because she is to weak willed to walk her own path like she should be doing.

Professor Forer, is that you?

Just because she now thinks SB is a crook does not mean she isn't out there looking for someone else to follow.

Nor would you getting her to agree to your version of he believer stage prevent that from happening.

Counterproductive to what?

To keeping her in a skeptical frame of mind.

Once again I am not her friend or her daddy.

I think it takes neither to show common decency.

I am not on this forum to help anybody. I come here to read and post things that interest me.

The way SB and RSL believers put everything off on Sylvia Browne and make her solely responsible for their pain interest me so I comment on it.

I don't owe anyone here anything other than following the forum rules like everyone else.

So the minimum required behavior is good enough for you?

Sure it does. Unless a part of our body is not working like it should.
We are all given the same things to work with.

Then we should all be able to compose a symphony or paint a masterpiece?

There is no part of the human brain that is unused or untapped that someone who can tap in can use to see the future with.

You are assuming that if such abilities exist, they would have to use some uncharted area of the brain?

Hence if there was a part of the brain that could be used for that purpose we would all have it unless a person suffered some kind of brain damage.

Assuming facts not in evidence...

All that time and work you have put in Robert and you don't even get it.
Shame really.
Perhaps you should take a break and converse the others about anything and everything except TV psychics?
It could work wonders on your perspective.

Thanks for the advice. But I have spent very little time talking or thinking about TV psychics since the stroke. I spend far more time talking and thinking about things like getting the left side of my body to work again. It has definitely changed my perspective.







I have posted about her post 3 times Robert. That is badgering?
She has posted many many times without me caring or responding in any way.
What is this shining light? We already know she is a fraud and a crook.
Is there any more information we need than that?
Do we really need to know what Sylvia eats for breakfast or what car she drives?
No we don't.




Telling me repeatably to not post on SB threads is not implying that I don't post on SB threads?
Gotta lose those blinders Robert.



Just because I respect you does not mean I agree with everything you say or do.
I hate to bust your bubble but with all your hard work and time you have done just as much as I have at stopping Sylvia Browne.
Which is to say not at all. Not even a little.

But I not only respect you I like you as a person. Your heart is in the right place and you are no doubt a better man than I.
So OK, I give you my word to never post my real thoughts on another SB thread on this forum again.

I am happy your health is doing better!

 

[IceSage]

I find it sad that anyone who still follows, or is stuck to Sylvia... Finds the need to nitpick, even if the things they're nitpicking are reasonable.

People tend to nitpick what's wrong with things said about Sylvia all the time, but I believe they're missing the bigger point.

She's a fraud, she can't do what she claims, and even if she could (which she can't) she does a horrible job at it and scars the lives of many people, and takes advantage of them.

What other point would there be to "defame" someone like Sylvia anyway? If I really knew someone who could talk to the dead, etc, and they were making cash off it, I wouldn't care, nobody would care, and they would embrace it. Who would try to "defame" such a person? Jealousy? Is one's psychic abilities more popular than the others?

Like, seriously now. There is no motive to call someone a fraud and show the evidence of such fraud, if they were not, in fact, a fraud.

It only works backwards, when the frauds try to defame those calling them a fraud. (To hide their lies, etc.)