Merged Stolen Palestinian Land

[gdnp]

Gaza is not a member of the UN. The US State Department and its counterparts in the European Union, Canada and Australia classify Hamas as a terrorist organization. Japan has avoided diplomatic relations with Hamas on the basis of its refusal to recognize Israel and for violence perpetrated by Hamas against Israel.

The US, EU, etc. have the right to their opinions and the right to act on them as they see fit. None of these opinions, however, are legally binding on UN members. Thus your previous assertion fails.

A significant impedient to the delivery of humanitarian aid to Gaza had been Hamas stealing aid shipents, and doing so repeatedly, forcing the UN to halt all shipents. That has since been eased, but, it should be noted that Hamas had been interfering with the delivery of aid to Gazans. Israel has consistently allowed for the transfer of aid to Gaza, including food, clothing and medicine. Palestinians also have access to Israeli hospitals.

Yeah, when supplies are short, he who controls the supplies gains inordinate power.

But you see, there is a catch-22 here. Israel prohibits smuggling into Gaza and destroys smuggling tunnels when they can. They define the Hamas government a terrorist organization, and deny it funds, fuel, etc. to run its operations. Yet they then condemn Hamas for not stopping Fatah members from firing rockets into Israel.

If you can't pay your remaining policemen, and you have no fuel for your police vehicles, or spare parts, and your court records have been destroyed in Israeli attacks, how is one supposed to run an effective government?

Don't bother answering, the question is rhetorical. The purpose of the blockade is to prevent the Hamas government from functioning. Thus, presumably, leading the people to elect a government more to Israel's liking.

 

[Marc39]

The US, EU, etc. have the right to their opinions and the right to act on them as they see fit. None of these opinions, however, are legally binding on UN members. Thus your previous assertion fails.

A Chapter VII UN resolution involving security-related matters does require members of the UN Security Council to vote on it.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

One of my children uses that emoticon. She says it's "stupid" but it makes her laugh.

You have children?

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

"For the purposes of this report, anti-Semitism is considered to be hatred toward Jews—individually and as a group—that can be attributed to the Jewish religion and/or ethnicity. An important issue is the distinction between legitimate criticism of policies and practices of the State of Israel, and commentary that assumes an anti-Semitic character. The demonization of Israel, or vilification of Israeli leaders, sometimes through comparisons with Nazi leaders, and through the use of Nazi symbols to caricature them, indicates an anti-Semitic bias rather than a valid criticism of policy concerning a controversial issue.
Source: US State Department

Nonsense.

Criticism of the Zionist Movement and/or israel for it's behavior if based upon it's behavior and as such is NOT prejucide against people for belonging to a certain religion, race or ethnicity.

And what's really absurd is claiming hatred towards an individual Jew is Anti-Semitic. I've never heard such ridiculous rubbish. Racism is hatred of a group based upon their race/ethnicity. The only situation where the laughable assertion that Anti-Semitism could be labeled at someone for hating an individual is if the Jewish population totaled just one.

The posts of Marc39 are getting more and more ridiculous .

 

[gdnp]

A Chapter VII UN resolution involving security-related matters does require members of the UN Security Council to vote on it.

Once such a vote takes place, please let us know. Then you can claim that Israel is enforcing UN policy by blocking support to the Hamas-lead government. Until then, it remains your fantasy.

 

[Marc39]

Nonsense.

Criticism of the Zionist Movement and/or israel for it's behavior if based upon it's behavior and as such is NOT prejucide against people for belonging to a certain religion, race or ethnicity.

And what's really absurd is claiming hatred towards an individual Jew is Anti-Semitic. I've never heard such ridiculous rubbish. Racism is hatred of a group based upon their race/ethnicity. The only situation where the laughable assertion that Anti-Semitism could be labeled at someone for hating an individual is if the Jewish population totaled just one.

The posts of Marc39 are getting more and more ridiculous .

Your continual attempts to demonize Israel by singling Israel out for vilification with repeatedly unsubstantiated charges of war crimes and slanted charges of racism and apartheid are consistent with the US State Department's definition of anti-Semitism.

 

[DC]

Your continual attempts to demonize Israel by singling Israel out for vilification with repeatedly unsubstantiated charges of war crimes and slanted charges of racism and apartheid are consistent with the US State Department's definition of anti-Semitism.

you are a racist. not much effect when you point fingers and yell antisemit.

your deigusting comments about Palestinians told me enough about you...

 

[Stout]

Well yeah granted it's Israeli and anything from the Israeli establishment can't be trusted. What does goods are flowing mean anyway? it might have been a small box of paper clips.

The fact is that Israel has a long list of banned goods including the concrete and steel necessary to rebuild and maintain the gazan infrastructure. So no the blockade wasn't lifted and thus Israel never kept to the ceasefire agreement.

As in military matters, if the Palestinians want to take on the Israelis in a propaganda war, they'd best "get with the program" and figure out just how to fight so they have a chance of winning.

Goods were flowing during the ceasefire, or "the lull" including concrete and steel, at least according to that Israeli pdf document. I'm not about to write off Israeli sources simply because they're Israeli, I want input from the Palestinian side as well. Like I said in a previous post, IMO there's evil on both sides at play here.

So what happened on Nov. 4. 2008, when the ceasefire was violated ? According to Israeli sources the IDF was "justified" in breaking the ceasefire due to Palestinian tunnel digging activities. The IDF claims the tunnel in question was being dug for the express purpose of abducting Israelis.

Is there any truth to this ? Why would the Palestinians be interested in digging a tunnel into Israel ? Smuggling goods isn't a very good explanation as they need a supplier on the other side of the tunnel to facilitate the transfer of those goods.

Or maybe the Israelis just made the whole story up. I don't know as i don't have any sources other than the official Israeli ones claiming a specific reason for the violation. Why should I trust one side more than the other ?

 

[mortimer]

israel controls the sea around Gaza. they control the airspace. they control the great majority of its land border.

Israel had no business keeping out one ounce of food or one drop of fuel from Gaza.

While I agree, the discussion was whether Israel has the right to control it's border to prevent weapons being smuggled into Gaza. Your response was:

So...the Gaza blockade was set up to prevent Hamas from importing in weapons from Iran and Syria through...Israel????????

If Israel was not controlling what crossed it's border into Gaza, Hamas and other terrorist organizations would certainly be smuggling weapons through that border rather than (or maybe in addition to) building tunnels from Egypt.

 

[gdnp]

As in military matters, if the Palestinians want to take on the Israelis in a propaganda war, they'd best "get with the program" and figure out just how to fight so they have a chance of winning.

Goods were flowing during the ceasefire, or "the lull" including concrete and steel, at least according to that Israeli pdf document. I'm not about to write off Israeli sources simply because they're Israeli, I want input from the Palestinian side as well. Like I said in a previous post, IMO there's evil on both sides at play here.

My understanding is that goods were trickling rather than flowing. The quantities allowed in were a small fraction of what was needed.

So what happened on Nov. 4. 2008, when the ceasefire was violated ? According to Israeli sources the IDF was "justified" in breaking the ceasefire due to Palestinian tunnel digging activities. The IDF claims the tunnel in question was being dug for the express purpose of abducting Israelis.

Is there any truth to this ? Why would the Palestinians be interested in digging a tunnel into Israel ? Smuggling goods isn't a very good explanation as they need a supplier on the other side of the tunnel to facilitate the transfer of those goods.

Or maybe the Israelis just made the whole story up. I don't know as i don't have any sources other than the official Israeli ones claiming a specific reason for the violation. Why should I trust one side more than the other ?

The purpose of building a tunnel into Israel would be to either kidnap Israeli citizens or smuggle suicide bombers into Israel, or both. Israel's dogged attempts to obtain the release of corporal Shalit have paradoxically demonstrated how valuable Israeli prisoners are to Palestinian militants and thus increased the risk of future kidnappings. And whether you love or hate the walls that Israel has built, it is hard to dispute their effectiveness in eliminating suicide bombings and similar attacks.

There is sort of a "damned if you do..." situation here. If the Palestinians refrain from attacking Israel, this is used as evidence in Israel that the wall has been successful, and simultaneously removes any urgency on the Israeli side to alter the status quo. If, on the other hand, attacks continue, then this only shows that the Palestinians do not want peace and thus the only solution is continued, forced separation.

 

[Stout]

My understanding is that goods were trickling rather than flowing. The quantities allowed in were a small fraction of what was needed.
.

Yes, that's entirely possible, there might not have been enough goods flowing and the Israelis might not be telling us that.

The IDF sure does value their personnel, and based on that value system I can see where they might want to take preemptive action to prevent the completion of a tunnel that would endanger those personnel. IMO they should have waited until the tunnel hit the wall, or the border, before violating the ceasefire. I'm surprised they didn't given that they had to know that launching Cast Lead would bring them a whole lot of negative international press.

Most everything I read on this conflict has the Palestinians making ( IMO ) really stupid decisions. For instance, before the wall was built, Palestinians had the opportunity to cross into Israel for employment purposes, but too many suicide bombers appear to have screwed that up and led to their segregation with it's attendant overall reduction in quality of life.

There is sort of a "damned if you do..." situation here. If the Palestinians refrain from attacking Israel, this is used as evidence in Israel that the wall has been successful, and simultaneously removes any urgency on the Israeli side to alter the status quo. If, on the other hand, attacks continue, then this only shows that the Palestinians do not want peace and thus the only solution is continued, forced separation.

I agree here too. The Palestinians have to know that the Israelis can and will continue to escalate their actions if the attacks continue. With the suicide bombers out of the equation, that leaves only the rocket attacks, attacks the Gazans have to know are rather ineffectual and only serve to feed the Israeli propaganda machine.

 

[Thunder]

Your continual attempts to demonize Israel by singling Israel out for vilification with repeatedly unsubstantiated charges of war crimes and slanted charges of racism and apartheid are consistent with the US State Department's definition of anti-Semitism.

lolololol!!!!

Is it not anti-Semitic to criticize Israel. It is not anti-Semitic to make criticizing Israel your personal cause. We can't take on every cause around the world.

The only people who think that criticizing Israel= anti-Semitism...are Judeo-fascists and racists. These are evil men and they will face justice..or the judgement of their God.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Nonsense.

Criticism of the Zionist Movement and/or israel for it's behavior if based upon it's behavior and as such is NOT prejucide against people for belonging to a certain religion, race or ethnicity.

And what's really absurd is claiming hatred towards an individual Jew is Anti-Semitic. I've never heard such ridiculous rubbish. Racism is hatred of a group based upon their race/ethnicity. The only situation where the laughable assertion that Anti-Semitism could be labeled at someone for hating an individual is if the Jewish population totaled just one.

The posts of Marc39 are getting more and more ridiculous .

Your continual attempts to demonize Israel by singling Israel out for vilification with repeatedly unsubstantiated charges of war crimes and slanted charges of racism and apartheid are consistent with the US State Department's definition of anti-Semitism.

Hahahahaha!!!

I'm sure my speaking out against the atrocities and apartheid commited by israel are consistent with any Zionist influenced definition of Anti-Semitism.

The mouthpiece of Zionist movement, the ADL has been using that fallacious tactic of attaching racism to a political issue for many decades.

It might scare some off from speaking up, but I'm afraid I take no notice of such absurd nonsense.

In addition to parky's comments above it's certainly not racist to speak up about someone else's racism either. Apartheid is apartheid. Israel is committing it. Fact.

edit: Actually i'm just reading The US Senate report on anti-semitism..

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/102301.pdf

While containing discourse on real racism it's heavily loaded towards the ADL's nonsense.

WTF have these silly conspiracy theories got to do with anti-semitism. Anti-US and Anti Israel sure, but not racist. (page 19)

The October 2002 terrorist bombing of a • nightclub in Bali, Indonesia was falsely rumored to have been caused by an Israeli “mini-nuclear weapon.”

The December 2004 South and Southeast • Asian tsunami, caused by an earthquake, was falsely rumored to have been caused by a joint U.S.-Israeli underground nuclear test.

It's a heavily loaded propagandic type document.

btw - I couldn't find a similar document providing discourse on Anti-Americanism

 

[Marc39]

Hahahahaha!!!

Took your happy medicine today?

I'm sure my speaking out against the atrocities and apartheid commited by israel are consistent with any Zionist influenced definition of Anti-Semitism.

Guess not, back to ranting allegations about Israeli atrocities and Zionist influence. You neglected to mention war criimes this time.

The mouthpiece of Zionist movement, the ADL has been using that fallacious tactic of attaching racism to a political issue for many decades.

As long as those like you defame Israel, there will be a need for the Anti-Defamation League. Fortunately, you're inconsequential.

It might scare some off from speaking up, but I'm afraid I take no notice of such absurd nonsense.

You're the reincarnation of Martin Luther King, Jr.!

In addition to parky's comments above it's certainly not racist to speak up about someone else's racism either. Apartheid is apartheid. Israel is committing it. Fact.

Speaking of Martin Luther King, Jr., MLK made the following statement about people like you: "When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism.”

 

[Marc39]

lolololol!!!!

Is it not anti-Semitic to criticize Israel. It is not anti-Semitic to make criticizing Israel your personal cause. We can't take on every cause around the world.

The only people who think that criticizing Israel= anti-Semitism...are Judeo-fascists and racists. These are evil men and they will face justice..or the judgement of their God.

Big difference between criticize and demonize.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Took your happy medicine today?

Guess not, back to ranting allegations about Israeli atrocities and Zionist influence. You neglected to mention war criimes this time.

Ah yes the war crimes.

As long as those like you defame Israel, there will be a need for the Anti-Defamation League.

You might like to look up the word defame or defamation. Defamation is a false accusation. I make no such things.

Fortunately, you're inconsequential.

The exposing of the truths of Israel's persecution of the Palestinians and those who can see this are not inconsequential in the slightest. Many thousands protested on the streets against the recent abhorrent slaughter carried out by Israel.

You're the reincarnation of Martin Luther King, Jr.!

Speaking of Martin Luther King, Jr., MLK made the following statement about people like you: "When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism.”

Oh grow up. off to weikipedia again I see.

So MLK made a false statement claiming Anti-Zionism equalled Anti-Semtism and accused a black student of talking anti-semitism. So?

 

[Marc39]

Many thousands protested on the streets against the recent abhorrent slaughter carried out by Israel.

Slaughter? No "massacre" this time, or, has that word fallen out of favor since the Jenin massacre fiction? Even one non-combatant casualty is regrettable, however, given Hamas's brutal tactics of human-shielding, using civilian installations as military bases and booby-trapping buildings, the number of casualties could have easily been exponentially higher...a real "massacre".

 

[Thunder]

Speaking of Martin Luther King, Jr., MLK made the following statement about people like you: "When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism.”

Funny...no one is able to find the actual source of this quote.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Funny...no one is able to find the actual source of this quote.

It's here and appears to be sourced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism#International

None the less it just further discredits Marc39 for using it to shout "Anti-Semitism!" at people criticizing Israel.

As I said above.... MLK said that some black student. So ****ing what? Means nothing.

 

[Marc39]

It's here and appears to be sourced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism#International

You running to Wiki again?