Still such a Newbie to Critical Thinking

[Nanny Ogg]

Hello. I haven't posted on here in quite a while; my last question set off a rather large post on about AA and religion.

I was raised Catholic and didn't get around to any critical thinking until college courses on Philosophy.

I am in awe at the way many here can debate so well. I want to learn how to be able to stick up for myself and my ideas. I want to learn more.

I like listening to audiobooks and was wondering if anyone has some good favorites that would help me out. I live in a rather religious area and have some very religious family members. I feel like a "closet" atheist.

Hope you all can recommend some good reads. Thanks for your input.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Hello. I haven't posted on here in quite a while; my last question set off a rather large post on about AA and religion.

I was raised Catholic and didn't get around to any critical thinking until college courses on Philosophy.

I am in awe at the way many here can debate so well. I want to learn how to be able to stick up for myself and my ideas. I want to learn more.

I like listening to audiobooks and was wondering if anyone has some good favorites that would help me out. I live in a rather religious area and have some very religious family members. I feel like a "closet" atheist.

Hope you all can recommend some good reads. Thanks for your input.

Quite the question...and it's kind of like asking, "Where shall I begin to drink the ocean?"

A couple of good places to start, in my opinion:

God is not Great, Christopher Hitchens

The Portable Atheist, ed. Christopher Hitchens

The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins

Breaking the Spell, Daniel Dennett

Good Without God, Greg Epstein

...I do not know how many of those are available in audiobook.

http://www.christianitydisproved.com/books.html has an extensive reading list.

You should also continue to start discussions here. I'll help, as will others, to the best of our abilities.

 

[Brainache]

Carl Sagan's "The Demon Haunted World" is also a good one.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Carl Sagan's "The Demon Haunted World" is also a good one.

+1

 

[Walter Ego]

I like listening to audiobooks and was wondering if anyone has some good favorites that would help me out. I live in a rather religious area and have some very religious family members. I feel like a "closet" atheist.

Hope you all can recommend some good reads. Thanks for your input.

Anything by Bart Erhman or James Randi. Also The Evolution of God by Robert Wright.

 

[marplots]

It's a participatory sport. The best way to learn is to jump in, be wrong a lot, and then be wrong less. What you are after is not simply adopting someone else's ideas, but putting your ideas out there to get trounced, so you can get better ideas and be happy with those few which survive the beating. I learn nothing from being right, and everything from being shown my own errors.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

"Against all gods," AC Grayling. A collection of 7 concise essays

 

[dlorde]

'God - the failed hypothesis' by Victor Stenger
'The Varieties of Scientific Experience' by Carl Sagan

 

[Donn]

Hope you all can recommend some good reads. Thanks for your input.

Hi,
The books so far are all good suggestions. I've not read a few and must fix that!

Here are two good online links:
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Main_Page

Iron Chariots is intended to provide information on apologetics and counter-apologetics. We'll be collecting common arguments and providing responses, information and resources to help counter the glut of misinformation and poor arguments which masquerade as evidence for religious claims. ​

and
http://www.skepdic.com/

The Skeptic's Dictionary is a website and a book. Each features definitions, arguments, and essays on topics ranging from acupuncture to zombies, and provides a lively, commonsense trove of detailed information on things supernatural, paranormal, and pseudoscientific.​

Just start reading and follow the links outwards to the world.

Good luck.

 

[Elind]

Hello. I haven't posted on here in quite a while; my last question set off a rather large post on about AA and religion.

I was raised Catholic and didn't get around to any critical thinking until college courses on Philosophy.

I am in awe at the way many here can debate so well. I want to learn how to be able to stick up for myself and my ideas. I want to learn more.

I like listening to audiobooks and was wondering if anyone has some good favorites that would help me out. I live in a rather religious area and have some very religious family members. I feel like a "closet" atheist.

Hope you all can recommend some good reads. Thanks for your input.

From a neaby thread this may not be the best place to start, as it were, but it will sure give a fast start.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10452205#post10452205

 

[angrysoba]

Hi Nanny Ogg,

I'm not sure if you are looking for religion-specific texts or those on rationality in general.

Assuming it is the latter, you might want to try this podcast called Rationally Speaking in which the regular speakers Massimo Pigliucci and Julia Galef talk about the point of rationality, and apply it to various topics.

Their main themes are philosophy and science. They also have guests on to talk about their books on related themes as well as debates on various issues.

http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/archive/

 

[MontagK505]

Carl Sagan's "The Demon Haunted World" is also a good one.

Double plus good. What I mainly got from the book is the dangers of magical thinking.

 

[SusanB-M1]

With an excellent user name like Nanny Ogg, you must be a Disc World fan! So that in itself is a pretty good start, I'd say! Have you ever had a look at the British Humanist Association's web site?

 

[DarthFishy]

If you're looking for something with more of a non-fiction bent I would suggest Contact by Carl Sagan (rather the book than the movie, as the movie waters down the atheist viewpoint of the book, though I still enjoy it).

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Carl Sagan's "The Demon Haunted World" is also a good one.

Fourthed.

Among all of the listed, this is the one I'd suggest to give to your religious friends to read, if you ever have a book-swapping offer. They're more likely to actually read it, versus skim it for blasphemy, because it's not adversarial - if they can get past the title, they'll find it's much more about ESP and alien abductions than religion, while introducing important elements of skepticism and critical thinking that religious arguments generally lack.

 

[blutoski]

Hello. I haven't posted on here in quite a while; my last question set off a rather large post on about AA and religion.

I was raised Catholic and didn't get around to any critical thinking until college courses on Philosophy.

I am in awe at the way many here can debate so well. I want to learn how to be able to stick up for myself and my ideas. I want to learn more.

I like listening to audiobooks and was wondering if anyone has some good favorites that would help me out. I live in a rather religious area and have some very religious family members. I feel like a "closet" atheist.

Hope you all can recommend some good reads. Thanks for your input.

Are you looking specifically for critical thinking skill development? (in which case I recommend a couple of textbooks on the topic that have exercises and answers in the back for self-evaluating)

Or just naturalism information and/or general entertainment within the realm of skeptical subject matter? (in which case the other posters have submitted some great suggestions)

 

[I Am The Scum]

I am in awe at the way many here can debate so well. I want to learn how to be able to stick up for myself and my ideas. I want to learn more.

I don't have any books to recommend, but I can give you some advice on attitude/approach. There are two ways of looking at the topic, and the resulting method is somewhat similar.

First, ask yourself why you want to engage in the discussion in the first place. Is it because you feel like you have something to prove, or do you fear having your beliefs ridiculed in a discussion?

If it's the latter, keep in mind that you are under no obligation to prove anything to anyone. If someone asks you why you believe what you believe, it's nice to have an answer. If they find your answer unsatisfying, then they are free to cease the discussion.

If you actually want to engage in the debate, then I recommend an equally casual, yet more incisive approach. Don't take the position of, You are so wrong and I am going to prove it! Rather, enter the discussion with an attitude of, Your position does not make sense to me, and I will gladly explain why. This style of conversation is much less contentious and far more productive than the arguments we so commonly see. You're not trying to "win" a debate; you're just trying to come to a rational conclusion.

And this kind of thing is easy to practice. Just take it easy. Find some youtube video, facebook post, or forum thread that you disagree with, and leave a comment explaining an alternative view. Take your time formulating a response. Avenues such as these (as opposed to a face-to-face discussion) give you all the time you need to clarify your thoughts, do research, etc. Lots of people will try to turn it into a battle of insults at the mere hint of a disagreement. Don't play that game. Again, take time to calm down if you need it, and formulate a reasoned response. After all, if the reply you are forming is not rational, then what is it?

If your opponent cannot muster a valid rebuttal to what you have said, then this will rightly boost your confidence in both your self and your position. If the response you get is one you find trouble disagreeing with (even after spending some time thinking on it and doing all necessary research), then admit that a valid point was made. Your position might change, but that's exactly what should happen when good evidence is presented.

Either way, you're better off as a result. Good luck and have fun.

 

[Elind]

While your advice is good, I would add that there is no point in engaging in such a discussion with someone known to you unless you feel that the other person wants the debate because they have doubts; not simply because they think you may have doubts.

 

[Lorentz]

I don't have any books to recommend, but I can give you some advice on attitude/approach. There are two ways of looking at the topic, and the resulting method is somewhat similar.

First, ask yourself why you want to engage in the discussion in the first place. Is it because you feel like you have something to prove, or do you fear having your beliefs ridiculed in a discussion?

If it's the latter, keep in mind that you are under no obligation to prove anything to anyone. If someone asks you why you believe what you believe, it's nice to have an answer. If they find your answer unsatisfying, then they are free to cease the discussion.

If you actually want to engage in the debate, then I recommend an equally casual, yet more incisive approach. Don't take the position of, You are so wrong and I am going to prove it! Rather, enter the discussion with an attitude of, Your position does not make sense to me, and I will gladly explain why. This style of conversation is much less contentious and far more productive than the arguments we so commonly see. You're not trying to "win" a debate; you're just trying to come to a rational conclusion.

And this kind of thing is easy to practice. Just take it easy. Find some youtube video, facebook post, or forum thread that you disagree with, and leave a comment explaining an alternative view. Take your time formulating a response. Avenues such as these (as opposed to a face-to-face discussion) give you all the time you need to clarify your thoughts, do research, etc. Lots of people will try to turn it into a battle of insults at the mere hint of a disagreement. Don't play that game. Again, take time to calm down if you need it, and formulate a reasoned response. After all, if the reply you are forming is not rational, then what is it?

If your opponent cannot muster a valid rebuttal to what you have said, then this will rightly boost your confidence in both your self and your position. If the response you get is one you find trouble disagreeing with (even after spending some time thinking on it and doing all necessary research), then admit that a valid point was made. Your position might change, but that's exactly what should happen when good evidence is presented.

Either way, you're better off as a result. Good luck and have fun.

I believe this is excellent advice. I'd like to add one more suggestion: try hard to understand what those you disagree with actually mean, what assumptions underlie their statements and when in doubt, reformulate their statements as you understand their meaning and then ask if that's what they really meant to say. In my experience, when debating intelligent and intellectually honest people, this resolves 90% of disagreements fairly quickly.

Beyond that, let me just way welcome to the IS forums. Allahu akhbar!

p.s. Buggrit, buggrem! Millennium hand and shrimp!

 

[asydhouse]

How To Think About Weird Things: Critical Thinking For a New Age by Theodore Schick & Lewis Vaughn


It's a text book, but highly readable. It thoroughly explains how to effectively use your brain (and how to avoid being misled by your brain!), and after each chapter's theoretical material goes into specific illustrative subjects to discuss the theory in real world cases, thereby covering many issues with specific analysis, which can provide you with sound understanding and ripostes to arguments from the ignorant. The seventh edition is out, so be sure to find the most recent edition.

Enjoy!