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Stationary Centre of Universe Defined?

I fully understand it’s an analogy. I just don’t accept that it’s an analogy that has validity and credibility in an actual sense.
I won't even try to improve upon the many excellent responses you have received to that objection, but I'll try to answer one of your questions below:

Is there any evidence that it’s actually possible to have a 3D volume without boundary or center? If so how is this 3D volume defined?
Consider Euclidean 3-space. If such a thing actually existed in our universe, instead of being a mere mathematical abstraction, then it would have infinite volume but no boundary or natural center.

You might think it would have a center, but any point that you might pick as its center has exactly the same properties as any other point that I might pick as its center. That, by the way, is a kind of relativity property possessed by standard Euclidean space.

In like manner, the surface of a sphere has no natural center. Having grown up in a three-dimensional world, your inability to think about the surface of a sphere without thinking about the sphere's interior is perfectly natural, but suppose you were prevented from journeying into that interior by difficulties such as rocks, pressure, heat, and generally intolerable living conditions. Restricted to the surface of the sphere, and asked to find a natural center that might be declared capital of the New World Order, you might reasonably respond that there is no natural center.

As for triangles, let's not argue about whether they can exist on the surface of a sphere. Let's go for a long walk instead, starting in San Antonio, Texas. From there we'll walk along a perfectly straight line (or as straight a line as it is possible to walk without descending beneath the surface of the earth) all the way to Baltimore, trailing a line of pebbles behind us for future reference. From Baltimore we'll walk a straight line to Tacoma, Washington, still dropping pebbles. From Tacoma we'll walk a straight line back to San Antonio.

Then we'll go back and measure the angles between the lines marked out by the pebbles we dropped along the way. We will find that the three angles add up to more than 180 degrees. That is (one example of) what mathematicians mean when they say a space is curved. In this case, the space they're talking about is the surface of the earth. You may not think of that surface as a space, but mathematicians talk funny.
 
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Of course it could be that in that new frame there is a dipole in the matter distribution; that is, that matter is not at rest on average in the CMB rest frame, but that's another issue.

That's what I meant---a single observer can make a local CMB measurement and find the (unique) frame where the CMB-emitting matter is on average at rest. But since the CMB matter was sloshing around with a nonzero velocity field, an observer distant from me (in space or in time!) will be averaging over different sloshes, so his rest frame will have a peculiar velocity with respect to mine. So the CMB cannot serve as a common frame.
 
That's what I meant---a single observer can make a local CMB measurement and find the (unique) frame where the CMB-emitting matter is on average at rest.

Right.

But since the CMB matter was sloshing around with a nonzero velocity field, an observer distant from me (in space or in time!) will be averaging over different sloshes, so his rest frame will have a peculiar velocity with respect to mine.

Such observers always have a velocity with respect to each other, even with zero "peculiar" velocity.

So the CMB cannot serve as a common frame.

I don't follow you. If you meant "inertial frame", sure - but who cares? There are no inertial frames in these spacetimes period, so it's an empty statement. If you just meant "reference frame", I don't follow you - why can't it? Just pick the frame in which the CMB has zero dipole for observers at rest in those coordinates, and there you have it.
 
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Just pick the frame in which the CMB has zero dipole for observers at rest in those coordinates, and there you have it.

Sure, you can do that---you can also pick the frame for which the Olentangy River is at rest, or the one for which the nearest star is at rest, or the one for which the net magnetic field at your location has some particular value.

The CMB-dipole-zero frame has exactly this level of universality. There is some CMB visible everywhere, so (unlike the Olentangy) any observer will be able to find some CMB with which to locate the local CMB-dipole-zero frame. But the frames have nothing in common below the 10^-5 level. The fallacy I want to defeat is: "I can use the CMB to identify a unique frame, and Marvin the Magellanic Martian can use the CMB to identify a unique frame, so we can agree on a common reference frame" (where "common" might mean either "at rest" or "Hubble-flowing apart").
 
Sure, you can do that---you can also pick the frame for which the Olentangy River is at rest, or the one for which the nearest star is at rest,

Neither of those defines a unique frame.

or the one for which the net magnetic field at your location has some particular value.

That doesn't work either. Magnetic field lines form closed loops. Therefore it's impossible to find a frame in which the field equals a constant at every point. But even if you could do it, it would be horrible. That's why, unlike magnetic fields, the CMB defines a preferred frame for the universe. Using similar logic we say the earth goes around the sun rather than the reverse.

The CMB-dipole-zero frame has exactly this level of universality. There is some CMB visible everywhere, so (unlike the Olentangy) any observer will be able to find some CMB with which to locate the local CMB-dipole-zero frame.

Right, and taken together, those define one unique frame.

But the frames have nothing in common below the 10^-5 level.

I don't know what you mean by "frames", plural. The procedure you just outlined defines a unique, single, frame.

The fallacy I want to defeat is: "I can use the CMB to identify a unique frame, and Marvin the Magellanic Martian can use the CMB to identify a unique frame, so we can agree on a common reference frame" (where "common" might mean either "at rest" or "Hubble-flowing apart").

The only potential fallacy in that statement arises from the way you've phrased it. I, on earth, cannot use the CMB to define a unique global frame, because I can only measure the part of the CMB that's visible to me. So at best I can define a frame locally. But if you allow me to use the observations of Marvin and his friends too, that does indeed define a unique, global frame.

Neither of your proposed definitions of "common" is well-posed enough to comment on, and in any case neither has anything to do with the real meaning of that word. All frames are common to everyone.

Perhaps what you really want to say is that if one defines a frame this way, and if one then defines spatial slices as surfaces of constant CMB average temperature, those surfaces will have fluctuations in their curvature on the order of 10^-5, as will the matter density along them. But since one could have chosen the matter density (with some appropriate smoothing) instead of the CMB as a way to define this preferred frame, it's true that the "rest frame of the universe" isn't really unique past the 1/100,000 level.
 
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Sure, that makes perfect sense.

Now, let's say I draw a couple of lines one inch apart on the Mobius Strip (yeah, I could be fancy and cut&paste your two-dotty-o, but I'd rather be snarky and not, because I don't even know what to call it), and exclude that area.

Now, I can make a good case that the "center of what's left" is the line equidistant from the two lines I've drawn which doesn't fall within the area I've excluded. [ETA: I'm guessing that would be the center of the inch on the other side of the paper.]

Can I similarly exclude some arbitrary region of the universe -- say, the solar system -- and reasonably ask "What is the center of gravity of what's left"?

Frankly, I'd rather live in a universe that doesn't go all ouroboros on me.


Yes but where is the middle of the strip?

:D
 
So you don't think general relativity is capable of describing a space that expands from a fixed central point?

Does relativity allow that point to be...
... absolutely/Universally stationary?
To my ears, that's describing a Newtonian absolute reference frame.

Again, maybe I'm just reading ynot wrong. But his difficulties with curved space make me suspect I'm not, and that he's simply denying relativity.
 
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Does relativity allow that point to be...

To my ears, that's describing a Newtonian absolute reference frame.

Again, maybe I'm just reading ynot wrong. But his difficulties with curved space make me suspect I'm not, and that he's simply denying relativity.

I wasn't responding to ynot (and I agree with you, he's clearly very confused). I was responding to your comments.

Can GR describe a universe with a special central point? Sure. Can we take that point to be stationary? Again, sure - why not? We can choose coordinates in which it's always at rest, and those coordinates would be very natural in such a universe. Of course we could always choose coordinates in which it's not at rest too, but physics will be more complicated in them.
 
I appreciate everyone's analogies, and I think they've actually made a dent in my lack of understanding. It still FEELS like a flat universe to me, though, in a more profound way than the block I live on FEELS flat. Maybe that's just because I can actually travel around the world, hold a 3D globe in my hands, and feel like I have an intuitive understanding in addition to a rational understanding of the "world is round" model. The 4D space projected onto my 3D mind is just not registering as strongly.

I see by the papers that we're living in a sliver of time in which other galaxies are visible, and as space expands we'll eventually come to an event horizon at which space will be expanding faster than the speed of the light streaming toward us from those galaxies. At that point, they'll wink out from where we sit.

I can understand that, but my question is this. If we're currently well short of that event horizon, and if space truly winds back upon itself -- is there any galaxy out there that we're seeing the back of? Light from one side of the galaxy coming at us from one direction, and light from the other side coming from another, having circumnavigated the once-smaller space in an expanding universe?

I assume the answer is "no" or that galaxy (quasar, pulsar, whatever) would be well known to every school child. So my second question is, why not? Or is there really something in that CMB map that shows "See? This is obviously the BACK of THAT! Amazing, isn't it?"
 
I can understand that, but my question is this. If we're currently well short of that event horizon, and if space truly winds back upon itself -- is there any galaxy out there that we're seeing the back of? Light from one side of the galaxy coming at us from one direction, and light from the other side coming from another, having circumnavigated the once-smaller space in an expanding universe?

I assume the answer is "no" or that galaxy (quasar, pulsar, whatever) would be well known to every school child. So my second question is, why not? Or is there really something in that CMB map that shows "See? This is obviously the BACK of THAT! Amazing, isn't it?"

We've never found it. People do seriously look for it in the CMB. However, because the CMB is a fairly featureless continuous source it's not possible really to look in one direction and say 'that's the same point as that one over there' with any great certainty. What people generally do is look for matching circles of temperature variations. If you imagine the CMB as a sphere we sit inside, if the universe repeats on scales (not too large or too small compared to the CMB sphere size itself) then one sphere intersects with adjacent ones, and when two spheres intersect you get circles.

So that's generally how people go looking for whether the universe loops back on itself, and there are good constraints on certain scales of repetition, but we can't say for sure it does or doesn't happen yet.
 
I can understand that, but my question is this. If we're currently well short of that event horizon, and if space truly winds back upon itself -- is there any galaxy out there that we're seeing the back of? Light from one side of the galaxy coming at us from one direction, and light from the other side coming from another, having circumnavigated the once-smaller space in an expanding universe?

Those are called ghost images, and people have done extensive surveys looking for them (and not just in the CMB, but also for galaxies), but can't find any. That doesn't mean that the universe isn't or can't be "closed" (ie, loop back on itself), but it does constrain the possible size of the universe if it's closed (it must be at least a certain size or we'd have seen ghost images).

So my second question is, why not?

Either the universe is closed but too big to see ghost images yet, or it's open.
 
Haven’t been able post for a while but would appreciate answers to these questions . . .

Is the universe made of the changed stuff of the singularity or has some or all of the universe been created from nothing?

If the universe has expanded from a singularity is it larger than the singularity regardless of any effects of relativity?

Does space-time curvature have a definable direction or is it curved in all directions simultaneously?

Does the constant expansion of the universe mean that the curvature of space-time is getting less? In other words is the curvature expanded?
 
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Is the universe made of the changed stuff of the singularity or has some or all of the universe been created from nothing?

The contents of the very early universe are different than the contents of today. When you have incredibly hot and dense stuff, it tends not to stay in the form of ordinary matter (quarks don't stay bound, particle/antiparticle pairs for every possible particle get created and destroyed continually, etc). So the "stuff" of the very early universe is not the "stuff" of today, but the stuff of today evolved from the stuff of the very early universe, it didn't come from nothing.

If the universe has expanded from a singularity

We don't know for sure that it did. The equations of general relativity, when extrapolated backwards in time, will produce a singularity. But we also know that general relativity and quantum mechanics, as they are currently formulated, are not compatible. Most of the time this incompatibility is irrelevant, since the effects from either happen at very different scales. But if you get high enough energy/mass densities, the effects of both quantum mechanics and GR become important on the same length scales. One (or both) must break down at that point, because they can't both be right. It is very possible that effects which we don't know about yet will kick in at these scales in order to "resolve" this conflict. If so, these effects would also be relevant to the universe at those very early, very dense times. And they could mean that the universe might never have been a singularity. We don't know, because we're not sure what happens when things get that dense. But we do know that they must have gotten very dense (and hot), because we know GR works very well without conflicting with quantum mechanics up to some pretty high densities.

Does space-time curvature have a definable direction or is it curved in all directions simultaneously?

The simplest assumption is that (at large length scales) the universe is homogeneous and isotropic. Observations indicate that this is close to correct for the universe. That would mean uniform curvature (again, on large length scales).

Does the constant expansion of the universe mean that the curvature of space-time is getting less? In other words is the curvature expanded?

Curvature doesn't "expand": it has a magnitude, not a size. But yes, the curvature should decrease if the universe expands. Just like the curvature of the surface of a small sphere is larger than the curvature of the surface of a large sphere (the latter is closer to flat than the former).
 
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Thanks for the answers

The contents of the very early universe are different than the contents of today. When you have incredibly hot and dense stuff, it tends not to stay in the form of ordinary matter (quarks don't stay bound, particle/antiparticle pairs for every possible particle get created and destroyed continually, etc). So the "stuff" of the very early universe is not the "stuff" of today, but the stuff of today evolved from the stuff of the very early universe, it didn't come from nothing.
I can accept a “chicken from an egg" universe but as I understand some they say there was a something from nothing creation and expanding space/time is continuously being created from nothing. My brother used to jokingly ask why a chicken mushed-up in a blender doesn’t turn back into an egg. :eye-poppi

We don't know for sure that it did. The equations of general relativity, when extrapolated backwards in time, will produce a singularity. But we also know that general relativity and quantum mechanics, as they are currently formulated, are not compatible. Most of the time this incompatibility is irrelevant, since the effects from either happen at very different scales. But if you get high enough energy/mass densities, the effects of both quantum mechanics and GR become important on the same length scales. One (or both) must break down at that point, because they can't both be right. It is very possible that effects which we don't know about yet will kick in at these scales in order to "resolve" this conflict. If so, these effects would also be relevant to the universe at those very early, very dense times. And they could mean that the universe might never have been a singularity. We don't know, because we're not sure what happens when things get that dense. But we do know that they must have gotten very dense (and hot), because we know GR works very well without conflicting with quantum mechanics up to some pretty high densities.
Regardless of whether it was a singularity or not, if it’s expanding now it must have been smaller before. If it expands uniformly the expansion must be always centred relative to the smaller pre-expansion.

The simplest assumption is that (at large length scales) the universe is homogeneous and isotropic. Observations indicate that this is close to correct for the universe. That would mean uniform curvature (again, on large length scales).
I will take “uniform curvature “ as “curved in all directions simultaneously”. How does a thing travel along a uniform curvature without being torn apart by essentially travelling in opposite directions at the same time (whatever the scale)?

Curvature doesn't "expand": it has a magnitude, not a size. But yes, the curvature should decrease if the universe expands. Just like the curvature of the surface of a small sphere is larger than the curvature of the surface of a large sphere (the latter is closer to flat than the former).
A problem I have with a finite, folded back on itself 3D universe is that there should be a location from which it’s not possible to move in a particular direction. Please don’t tell me about a 2D surface of a sphere that I can easily imagine but not accept as being valid.
 
I think what we have here is a failure to communicate. Good luck guys.

Speaking of eggs, one of my grade school teachers taught us that heat melts solids and turns them into liquids. He was baffled when I asked why a liquid egg turns solid when you cook it.
 
Regardless of whether it was a singularity or not, if it’s expanding now it must have been smaller before. If it expands uniformly the expansion must be always centred relative to the smaller pre-expansion.

No. There is no center, and never was. I'm going to get a little bit mathematical, but it might actually help you understand what's going on if you can follow.

In geometry, a "metric" is a mathematical quantity which tells you how to calculate distances. The idea of a metric may seem a little pointless if you approach things from a Euclidean perspective, because in Euclidean space with cartesian coordinates, the metric is a rather dull and uninteresting quantity, and it doesn't change from point to point. But let's write it out anyways:

ds2 = dx2 + dy2 + dz2
where ds is the distance between the points, and dx, dy, and dz are the coordinate differences between the points. You might recognize this as a simple variation of the Pythagorean theorem. So what's the big deal? Well, if we go to non-Euclidean space, or if the space changes over time, then things can get quite a bit different, and quite a bit more interesting. And in general relativity, the metric is what describes everything there is to know about space.

So let's look at a simple metric that describes a Euclidean space (to keep things simple), but in which that space expands over time:

ds2 = a*t2*(dx2 + dy2 + dz2)

where now "a" is some constant. Note, too, that x, y, and z are coordinates, and not distance. They describe locations within our space, but we cannot find the distance between two points by looking at the coordinates alone without consulting the metric. That's not actually any different than ordinary Euclidean space, though: we just tend to set up our coordinates to match distances. The only difference is that now that our space is expanding, we can't have distance and coordinates match except at one particular instant.

OK, so I said this space was expanding. How do I know? Well, look at the equation. Consider the distance between the same two coordinate points at t=1 and at t=2: they are twice the distance apart at t=2 than they are at t=1. What happens as t -> infinity? All points approach being infinitely far away from each other. What happens as t -> 0? All points approach being zero distance away from each other, ie, the space collapses towards a singularity.

But is there a center? Well, no. I didn't make this explicit before, but this is a metric for a Euclidean 3D space which is infinite. Where's the center of an infinite space? It has none. Once could say that it's at the origin, but in an infinite space (meaning that x,y, and z are unbounded), the choice of origin is completely arbitrary. Picking a different origin changes nothing. In fact, the metric itself doesn't even NOTICE the origin, even if you specify it, because it's only interested in differences. So one could say that there is no center, or that the center is everywhere, but what one cannot say is that the center is here and not there.

I will take “uniform curvature “ as “curved in all directions simultaneously”. How does a thing travel along a uniform curvature without being torn apart by essentially travelling in opposite directions at the same time (whatever the scale)?

I think you misunderstand what I mean by "uniform curvature". It's not the curvature in all directions (which the universe should also be if it's isotropic) but the curvature at different points should be the same (homogeneous). A sphere has uniform curvature: every point is equivalent, and the curvature is the same at all points on the sphere. An oblate or prolate spheroid does not have uniform curvature. An oblate sphereoid, for example, has less curvature on the flattened ends than on the sharply rounded sides.

A problem I have with a finite, folded back on itself 3D universe is that there should be a location from which it’s not possible to move in a particular direction. Please don’t tell me about a 2D surface of a sphere that I can easily imagine but not accept as being valid.

First off, you're wrong about not being able to move. If the curvature is constant, that will make no difference. For example, consider a rigid triangle on the surface of a sphere (yes, I know you don't accept it as valid, but bear with me). Because it's on a curved surface, the angles of the triangle will want to add up to something greater than 180 degrees (the value will depend on the curvature of the sphere and the size of the triangle - let's say 185 for now). But we can slide our triangle anywhere on our sphere, and it will make no difference, the angles always add up the same way. There's no problem here.

But your intuition is telling you something real. Suppose it's not a perfect sphere, but is lumpy in places. Let's say we try to move onto a bump where the curvature is greater, and the angles of the triangle would need to add up to 190 degrees. Then we would indeed have a problem.

But there are two additional relevant facts. The first is that in the real world, relativity actually prohibits perfect rigidity. While our triangle might resist bending, if we push it hard enough, it MUST bend. So while varying curvature could make motion difficult, it can never make it impossible. The second fact is that even on stellar length scales, NOTHING is rigid at all. Everything is fluid (that's why even solid planets are spheres). So it doesn't even matter in the real world: we don't get significant curvature differences at smaller length scales, and at larger length scales nothing will resist moving through different curvatures anyways. So while you weren't completely wrong to be thinking along those lines, in reality it just never matters.

As for accepting the 2D sphere analogy, well, why can you not accept it? The math works out perfectly. Our everyday experience tells us to think in terms of Euclidean space, but that means nothing: the curvature of space itself is far too small for us to notice directly, just as an ant cannot tell that the earth is a sphere and not a lumpy plane. We should not rely on our everyday intuition to guide us in such matters. We should look to both math and experiments, and the experiments say that GR is correct, and the math of GR says the universe can (but might not) curve around on itself.
 
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I really appreciate the time and effort yourself others have given me in this thread. Unfortunately this is a very busy time of the year for me so I may not have much time to continue. When I get any spare time I will read everything again to see if I can gain any better an understanding. From my perspective there seems to be a “faith” in math required that I don’’t have.
 
From my perspective there seems to be a “faith” in math required that I don’’t have.

As Maths. in this case, is a tool, that's like saying you need faith in a hammer before you can knock a nail in. ;)
 

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