Stand Your Ground (licence to kill)?

[triforcharity]

Okay, brief question for all.

If your house were to be burgled would you prefer to be at home or out?

Speaking from personal experience, of course neither.

But, if I had to pick one, I would say away.

Coming home to find your house has been burglarized gives you a sense of uneasiness....of.....violation.

However, at the same time, being at home during is also very violating.

So, it's very much a catch-22.

 

[RandFan]

Wow. How ridiculous. Why would you even think that?

Because of people's attacks of the individuals. "Lowlife", "scum", etc.. Why are these needed as justification? This is priming. Justification for killing. It's not needed. All one need do is assert that if it comes down to your life or theirs you choose yours.

I don't think it is at all per se ridiculous. Obvious tri you value human life. I have no question in my mind whatsoever that you would ever take the life of another human being for granted. But are there people on this forum who feel that property is more important than the life of a "scumbag"? That it wouldn't "bother them" to kill another? It would sure bother the hell out of me. I would do it but It would bother me.

 

[Resume]

What is your opinion about the OP? Did he escalate the situation?

From what I understand of that case, he seemed to escalate, but I'm not sure of every detail. It reminds me of a YouTube video in which a pharmacist shot at two robbers, but hit only one. He left the scene to pursue, but then came back and seemingly executed the wounded robber.

I don't think these scenarios should be protected under SYG statutes.

 

[Xulld]

No one accused you of wanting to kill. It follows that if it comes to it your property is in effect more important than their life. If you could retreat and spare them their life but lose your property you would not.

I do not understand the hide in your house position and how it relates to knowing really anything about what is going on in your home.

Why would I retreat without having determined if a real threat exists?

We have already heard of examples where some drunk tries to break in by accident, some kid tries to break in to meet up with his friend, and its possible any number of scenarios can occur. Situations have occured where someone is in diabetic shock and think they are trying to gain access to there own home, and if you just hide in the closet maybe this guy dies instead of you being the hero.

IMHO hiding because you hear a bump in the night or know someone unexpected is in your house is just never an option. Knowing what is going on is vital.

Heck some pyro could be breaking in to set your place on fire and you my not know it until the smoke rolls into your hiding hole.

. . and before anyone says . . wow what an imagination . . these are all things that have happened. I do not have the sources, google yourself.

 

[Cylinder]

He left the scene to pursue, but then came back and seemingly executed the wounded robber.

That was brutal to watch. Murder was the wrong crime to charge, IMHO. The owner did not do anything to look for that fight. That old man became overwhelmed by the situation and did something stupid.

Manslaughter and minimal sentencing.

 

[triforcharity]

That seems a mighty big assumption to rest your life and the lives of your family on.

I understand fully. If the other then became aggressive, he'd not make it out alive either. I'm not going to be face to face with this person. I will shoot from a distance, which gives me the obvious tactical advantage. And if I were to be killed, my wife knows how to use a gun also, as does my older son. So, it's not going to end well for the burglars.

 

[Xulld]

What is your opinion about the OP? Did he escalate the situation?

I cant imagine running at a guy holding a shotgun. Apparently the guy who got shot did.

 

[RandFan]

From what I understand of that case, he seemed to escalate, but I'm not sure of every detail. It reminds me of a YouTube video in which a pharmacist shot at two robbers, but hit only one. He left the scene to pursue, but then came back and seemingly executed the wounded robber.

I don't think these scenarios should be protected under SYG statutes.

Fair enough. And I should note that most people who support SYG obviously care about human life. I'm sorry the discussion tends to drift toward accusations and acrimony. That's not fair.

 

[Resume]

That was brutal to watch. Murder was the wrong crime to charge, IMHO. The owner did not do anything to look for that fight. That old man became overwhelmed by the situation and did something stupid.

Manslaughter and minimal sentencing.

Was he charged with murder?

 

[triforcharity]

Because of people's attacks of the individuals. "Lowlife", "scum", etc.. Why are these needed as justification? This is priming. Justification for killing. It's not needed. All one need do is assert that if it comes down to your life or theirs you choose yours.

I don't think it is at all per se ridiculous. Obvious tri you value human life. I have no question in my mind whatsoever that you would ever take the life of another human being for granted. But are there people on this forum who feel that property is more important than the life of a "scumbag"? That it wouldn't "bother them" to kill another? It would sure bother the hell out of me. I would do it but It would bother me.

Ok, I see your point. And yes, I do very much value human life, but if it comes down to myself/family vs. someone else, of course me and mine win out, every time.

And yes, it would bother me, in the sense that I have killed someone. But, at the same time, I would NEVER regret doing so, if it means that me and mine are safe and unharmed.

Cheers Rand!

 

[Cylinder]

Was he charged with murder?

At least initially. I saw a YouTube clip of a news report that claimed he was being charged with murder. He did premeditate when he reloaded out of the drawer but that situation was not of his doing.

 

[Xulld]

And you are the judge, jury and executioner.

So, it's capital punishment for anyone caught from outside of a community who is committing a crime. Interesting. That was the human modus long before civilization. You would have to forgo prohibitions of cruel and unusual punishment. Are you okay with that?

Fair enough. And I should note that most people who support SYG obviously care about human life. I'm sorry the discussion tends to drift toward accusations and acrimony. That's not fair.

Your right, its not fair . . .

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Again, very easy way to prevent this. Don't break into my house.

This, pretty much.

If those two were still alive, the advice I would give them would be, if you don't want to get shot by a homeowner, don't break into a home. It has served me well. I've never once been shot at by a homeowner.

 

[triforcharity]

From what I understand of that case, he seemed to escalate, but I'm not sure of every detail.

Correct, but he escalated it to a level still within the law. When the bad guy charged him, he THEN fired his weapon.

IMO, he acted in good faith, and well within the laws.

It reminds me of a YouTube video in which a pharmacist shot at two robbers, but hit only one. He left the scene to pursue, but then came back and seemingly executed the wounded robber.

I don't think these scenarios should be protected under SYG statutes.

I would agree, unless that person had somehow become a threat again, the pharmacist had no right to shoot the individual. He was (Presumably) not a threat, and as such, he should have been left alone.

I would believe that under Florida law, (since that is the law I am the most knowledgeable on) that he would be charged with 2nd deg. murder, or at minimum manslaughter.

The SYG laws (Florida again) state that you are justified with meeting force with force. If the person laying on the ground now has his weapon, absolutely yes, 100% within the law. If the person is writhing in pain, holding his arm, he is not a threat, and as such, is using no force against you.

 

[RandFan]

Ok, I see your point. And yes, I do very much value human life, but if it comes down to myself/family vs. someone else, of course me and mine win out, every time.

And yes, it would bother me, in the sense that I have killed someone. But, at the same time, I would NEVER regret doing so, if it means that me and mine are safe and unharmed.

Cheers Rand!

Thanks, and BTW, I do apologize for the acrimony. This is an issue that can get emotional and it is unfair to make broad brush accusations. People have the right to be safe and secure in their homes. So, I'll beat that dead horse some more.

 

[RandFan]

This, pretty much.

If those two were still alive, the advice I would give them would be, if you don't want to get shot by a homeowner, don't break into a home. It has served me well. I've never once been shot at by a homeowner.

That logic works well in Iran and Saudi Arabia. If you don't want to be hanged or have your hands cut off then don't steal.

Pretty simple actually.

ETA: Why don't we have such laws here? It sure seems to work well for Iran and Saudi Arabia. Perhaps we should.

 

[Cylinder]

Yup - Jerome Ersland got life. Wow.

 

[triforcharity]

Was he charged with murder?

Yes, and sentenced to life.
http://newsok.com/oklahoma-pharmacist-convicted-of-murder-is-moved-to-prison/article/3584968

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

That logic works well in Iran and Saudi Arabia. If you don't want to be hanged or have your hands cut off then don't steal.

Pretty simple actually.

ETA: Why don't we have such laws here? It sure seems to work well for Iran and Saudi Arabia. Perhaps we should.

I'd be OK with it.

 

[RandFan]

Yup - Jerome Ersland got life. Wow.

I would tell Jerome that if you don't want life then don't summarily kill people. Then again, perhaps it's not that simple. Perhaps there are mitigating circumstances. Oh well. If you can't do the time don't do the crime. Sorry Jerome.