Stand Your Ground Florida, Stand Your Ground

[Dr. Keith]

The issue is of course if those reasonable people think he had a reasonable fear for his life.

The only way that he could fear for his life is if he had an unreasonable fear of black men.

But, if you posit that a fear of black men is completely reasonable, even if they are retreating, then his fear is completely reasonable. But it's not racism, I promise.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Fight or flight =/= peeing your pants in irrational fear

What if your fight or flight kicks in during an argument with your SO? Cleared to knock some teeth out? No self control required?

If she slaps you while she is within arms length of a knife, I think you can shoot her in Florida.

I'm assuming you are white, of course.

And of course if she isn't within arms length of a knife who is making your samich?

 

[Thermal]

If she slaps you while she is within arms length of a knife, I think you can shoot her in Florida.

I'm assuming you are white, of course.

And of course if she isn't within arms length of a knife who is making your samich?

I see that laws in Florida are quite black and white.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

The natural reaction, as expertly explained by me is fight or flight.

He was sprawled on the ground, he had just been attacked, the flight option was gone, further attacks were likely.

Aim for mass
Shoot
End threat.

It seems that the main disagreement between you and just about everyone else on the thread is the characterization of the situation after the weapon was presented. Do you think there was still a threat to Drejka at the time of the shooting? What if another 10 seconds had gone by between the time the gun was pulled and the shooting without further advancement by McGlockin?

The issue is of course if those reasonable people think he had a reasonable fear for his life.

Fearing for his life is not the relevant criterion, as Ziggurat has pointed out earlier in the thread.

 

[BrooklynBaby]

SYG means you never need to retreat, that is its whole purpose.

Not really. SYG is to prevent prosecutors from only having to prove the person defending himself didn't try to run away (duty to retreat) before shooting to get a murder conviction.

 

[eeyore1954]

The only way that he could fear for his life is if he had an unreasonable fear of black men.

No he could also have an unreasonable (or maybe reasonable ) fear of someone who just pushed him down. Or being pushed could have rattled him and he was not thinking clearly for those few seconds. Have you ever had something violent happen to you unexpectedly?

Although it is also possible he had an unreasonable fear of black men.


According to my watching of the video I think the shooting was not justified by any law but there is a difference between watching a video and being in the situation and that is what I believe should have been decided by a judge or jury.

 

[eeyore1954]

Have you seriously never been shoved? At a bar or party or wherever? I've had drunks swing at me more than a few times, and its just not life or death ( or reasonably in fear of imminent serious bodily injury, to satisfy the anal retentiveamong us).

I guess it would fall on deaf ears to remind you of a parable involving turning the other cheek?

Have you ever been unexpectedly pushed to the floor/asphalt?
Have you ever noticed that some people react differently to violence?
Have you ever broken up a fight or potential fight and notice that adrenaline or something takes over and people do not always act in the rational way you would expect?

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

No he could also have an unreasonable (or maybe reasonable ) fear of someone who just pushed him down. Or being pushed could have rattled him and he was not thinking clearly for those few seconds. Have you ever had something violent happen to you unexpectedly?

Although it is also possible he had an unreasonable fear of black men.


According to my watching of the video I think the shooting was not justified by any law but there is a difference between watching a video and being in the situation and that is what I believe should have been decided by a judge or jury.

Would you please stop ruining the thread with your prudent and cautious analysis? We need more biased knee-jerk outrage and jumping to conclusions, so spare us your level-headed reasoning!

 

[ponderingturtle]

Not really. SYG is to prevent prosecutors from only having to prove the person defending himself didn't try to run away (duty to retreat) before shooting to get a murder conviction.

Exactly it gets rid of all that sissy retreating. So that you courted violence instead of tried to avoid it is of no consequence.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Would you please stop ruining the thread with your prudent and cautious analysis? We need more biased knee-jerk outrage and jumping to conclusions, so spare us your level-headed reasoning!

I wish I had posted this.

 

[Thermal]

Have you ever been unexpectedly pushed to the floor/asphalt?

Of course. And grabbed by the neck, tackled to the pavement, etc. Many guys I would think have. Not exactly an exotic experience.

Have you ever noticed that some people react differently to violence?

Sure. Your point? Are you suggesting that law should be enforced based on individual reactions? Because I don't think overreacting warrants leniency. Do you think a cowardly overreaction gives license to gun down an unarmed, retreating man?

Have you ever broken up a fight or potential fight and notice that adrenaline or something takes over and people do not always act in the rational way you would expect?

Of course. Especially when breaking up fights. You have no idea what the temperaments are. You seem to be saying that irrationality is a mitigating factor? Maybe at sentencing, but not when charging. And if you want to carry a killing tool, ya best have some self control. A ton of it.

I will not make excuses or exceptions for people who want to carry guns but are too emotional or timid or whatever to use them responsibly. Just puts them in the reckless manslaughter column..

 

[Thermal]

Would you please stop ruining the thread with your prudent and cautious analysis? We need more biased knee-jerk outrage and jumping to conclusions, so spare us your level-headed reasoning!

*looks up from sharpening pitchfork*

 

[Nessie]

He WAS attacked, there is no question about that. The response from the shover's fans is the the initial victim should have realized that the attacked had ceased, which is totally inconsistent with how people naturally respond to attacks like this.

What is the natural response to being pushed to the ground?

EDIT -

I see there was an answer to that. Fight or flight. Or, nothing, or engage verbally, or draw weapon and shout warning. There is no natural reaction, there are just many options.

The problem with so many people being armed is that give someone a hammer and everything becomes a nail.

 

[Nessie]

I think that everyone who carries a gun is a potential deadly threat.

Especially in the USA where in many cases people are not properly vetted and checked to ensure they are suitable to have a gun.

 

[The Big Dog]

Just skip over the fact that the attack was stopped and the man was retreating between steps 1 and 2. Nice job of ignoring the law.

when opinions become facts, folks.

Race card dealing people looking at a video ain't the standard.

The standard is what is reasonable for a person who just got blind sided and knocked on their asses.

if it was as clear as everyone said, the pro shover crowd could certainly come up with better arguments than the repeated misrepresentations and appeals to racism.

Seeing that they have not?

Clear SYG.

 

[The Big Dog]

What is the natural response to being pushed to the ground?

EDIT -

I see there was an answer to that. Fight or flight. Or, nothing, or engage verbally, or draw weapon and shout warning. There is no natural reaction, there are just many options.

The problem with so many people being armed is that give someone a hammer and everything becomes a nail.

and yet the deceased when presented with an argument chose to physically attack.

Bad choice

 

[GlennB]

French woman, lacking a gun, manages to survive a punch from a violent man after rejecting his (alleged) sexually abusive remarks on a Paris street with a French phrase that's a notch stronger than "Shut up!". The attacker threw an ashtray in her direction a few seconds after the exchange and, as we all know, such a flying object is potentially lethal. Possessing a gun she might have, of course, fearing incoming/further violence, blown his guts out.

Embedded in a Guardian article

 

[Nessie]

and yet the deceased when presented with an argument chose to physically attack.

Bad choice

Which does not deal with the points I made.

 

[Disbelief]

when opinions become facts, folks.

Race card dealing people looking at a video ain't the standard.

The standard is what is reasonable for a person who just got blind sided and knocked on their asses.

if it was as clear as everyone said, the pro shover crowd could certainly come up with better arguments than the repeated misrepresentations and appeals to racism.

Seeing that they have not?

Clear SYG.

It was clear to you when you said this:

wrong, the attack had not ended, the attacker was coming in for stomping time, and was stopped only because the gun was drawn, plus the whole thing lasted six seconds, and you are parsing out the moments after the victim got knocked on his ass? Ridiculous

 

[Thermal]

when opinions become facts, folks.

Race card dealing people looking at a video ain't the standard.

The standard is what is reasonable for a person who just got blind sided and knocked on their asses.

if it was as clear as everyone said, the pro shover crowd could certainly come up with better arguments than the repeated misrepresentations and appeals to racism.

Seeing that they have not?

Clear SYG.

Yeah. Sadistic, Yellow, and Gutless