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SPR Study Day - The Psychology of the Sceptic

cj, it seems you're violating skeptic rules...

Thou shalt not be convinced by ANY subjective experience or objective evidence.

Thou must conform with the skeptic social norms, AGREE with your fellow skeptics. Never doubt the honesty of a skeptic, or you'll get an infraction. Conform, or else be cast out as a woo-woo...you don't want that do you?

Don't think for yourself, don't seek out "convincing" evidence. You shouldn't have read those boxes of journals. Avoid that stuff. Even though that will mean you aren't aware of ALL the available "evidence" out there, assume it isn't convincing. Take an a priori position. Don't look at the big picture. If there was any "convincing" evidence out there, Randi would have told you about it. Trust in Randi. He is Amazing.

CONFORM.

Oh, and Happy Thanksgiving!

Oh, wait. Do skeptics celebrate Thanksgiving? Better find out before you celebrate. Don't want to violate another skeptic rule, do you?

Oh I see! You're trying to goad someone you can then identify as a skeptic into making some mean, hostile, conformist comment that then confirms your belief about skeptics.

Skeptics disagree all the time. They are not a cohesive group. I'd think these boards would provide ample evidence of this. What you describe is actually the opposite of skepticism, and much the way many paranormal organizations work.

You seem to have a problem with the fact that some evidence is not convincing, and is not good evidence. Yes, some of it must be disregarded. You will note that skeptics give good reason when they disregard something; they don't invent excuses like paranormal proponents often do when evidence contradicts their claims.

Let me put this another way; have you read all the physics articles over the last ten years? The last five? The last year? The last month? How about the medical ones? Chemistry? So why then, when the 'skeptics' in these fields shoot down the paranormal theories, do you feel you can say you actually have all the evidence? I'm not judging you by my standard, but by your own.
 
Just because the people reading this thread might find it interesting, the latest issue of Cortex explores the "Neuropsychology of Paranormal Experiences and Beliefs".

(no, I have not yet read any of it--I was just sent the link an hour or so ago.)
 
Just because the people reading this thread might find it interesting, the latest issue of Cortex explores the "Neuropsychology of Paranormal Experiences and Beliefs".

(no, I have not yet read any of it--I was just sent the link an hour or so ago.)

Thanks Mercutio -- I recognise a few names of the authors from the parapsychological journals, and interestingly Michael Thalbourne - whose Australian Sheep/Goat scale I have just been whittering about - and Chris French are authors on the last paper. Looks very interesting, I'll go take a proper look!

cj x
 
Because we all know that you already know that evolutionary biologists never supported eugenics.
Sorry, but this is just plain old historical ignorance on your part. Check these out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Davenport
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Fisher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Ploetz
Those were evolutionary biologists and enthusiastic, highly influential, eugenicists. I could add links to others but my point is made.
Similar eugenics-supporting goons who were not, technically speaking, biologists, but were either professional or amateur scientists, included Francis Galton (Darwin's cousin, who coined the term 'eugenics'), Leonard Darwin (Darwin's son, and President of the British Eugenics Society), Madison Grant (who wrote The Passing of the Great Race, a book which had a great effect on Hitler), Eugen Fischer, Alexander Graham Bell, H.G. Wells..etc..
Eugenics was mainstream science, and appeared in genetics textbooks. There were University Professorships in Eugenics.
But really, it's not my job to educate you in it. Just do some link-hopping.

I didn't do that. I used the common internet phrase "fixed it for you" to indicate that I had changed your quote.
No. You did not.
That's either a lapse in memory, or dishonesty.
 
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So much for "end of derail". I've already read the subject (eugenics), and again it's a case of how you define the main protagonists in the story according to what you want to "learn" from it. Call people who were against eugenics "skeptics" or not. As you see fit.

I think the main problem with this debate is that an awful lot of people seem to be under the impression that they don't suffer from the same defects they deride in other people.
 
Hey, instead of trying to incite us into rabid behaviour, can you put your psychic powers to some good use and tell me where the hell my turkey baster went to?

Linda


I'm not Limbo, but I read this last night. I was suffering from fever and could not sleep - and about 7am I startled awake after very little sleep, needing urgently to log on to tell FLS that a) it was Thanksgiving (ok, I'm slow on the uptake & we don't celebrate it here) and b) the turkey baster was behind the blue ceramic pig!

I git out of bed, wandered downstairs, and then suddenly thought - hang on, what are you doing? I own a blue ceramic pig, fls, probably does not --clearly the psychic message was for me, CJ!

So I went and looked behind the pig for my turkey baster. Then I suddenly realized -- I don't actually own a turkey baster. At this point I realized i was still ill and needed sleep and went back to bed. Incoherency in my recent posts may reflect this bloody fever.

Still, I do think I may count as the leats successful psychic of modern times? Well, maybe not quite Sylvia level yet... :) (BTW--I am not remotely psychic!)

cj x
 
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I'm not Limbo, but I read this last night. I was suffering from fever and could not sleep - and about 7am I startled awake after very little sleep, needing urgently to log on to tell FLS that a) it was Thanksgiving (ok, I'm slow on the uptake & we don't celebrate it here) and b) the turkey baster was behind the blue ceramic pig!

I git out of bed, wandered downstairs, and then suddenly thought - hang on, what are you doing? I own a blue ceramic pig, fls, probably does not --clearly the psychic message was for me, CJ!

Damn, a blue ceramic pig would look great in my kitchen.

So I went and looked behind the pig for my turkey baster. Then I suddenly realized -- I don't actually own a turkey baster. At this point I realized i was still ill and needed sleep and went back to bed. Incoherency in my recent posts may reflect this bloody fever.

Still, I do think I may count as the leats successful psychic of modern times? Well, maybe not quite Sylvia level yet... :) (BTW--I am not remotely psychic!)

cj x

Since no timely answer was forthcoming, I ended up rummaging through my dye supplies and using a baster I had bought for painting warps (for anyone who knows how dangerous that is, it was still sealed in its package, unused, and had been stored in a plastic bag separate from the box containing the dyes). Crisis averted.

Hope you're feeling better.

Linda
 
An update to the OP:

Reply to Skeptics



As I may have mentioned (!) I gave a talk on skeptic psychology (see November 2) at the SPR recently. I wouldn't bring it up again, but it produced a couple of responses from skeptics, which I thought I'd reply to here. Here are the posts, followed by my response.

Dave W: Interestingly, it would be easy to write this same piece from a diametrically opposed viewpoint - that the nasty and corrosive responses of some psychic believers to criticism are due to fear that parapsychological effects are not real, confounded with a massive dose of cognitive dissonance. Anecdotes abound, for example, of psi researchers who were taken in by an admitted hoax but dogmatically refused to believe it. If the skeptics were to paint with a brush as broad as you have used, and portray all psi advocates as terrified of facing reality, I'm sure that you would (rightly) object to such a simple-minded generalization. As for the ridicule, it seems to be par for the course. Perhaps you are more polite with your language, but the idea that parapsychologists and their supporters are less insulting to their critics is clearly implied in the above piece, and is also clearly shown to be wrong by the same text. Leiter is obviously intending to be insulting, for just one example. What might be most insulting is your suggestion that cynics, climate-change denialists and creationists are the same sort of "skeptics" as Randi, Shermer, Gardener and the like. Creationists are not "evolution skeptics," they are evolution denialists with nothing but religious ideology to support their position. Such a comparison is at least as personal, divisive and rude as calling Randi a nitwit. But in only avoiding schoolyard-style name-calling (while still being a clear insult), it certainly is not a claiming of the moral high ground. So, obviously this post is at best a double-edged sword. A much more interesting thesis might have been about why the voices (on both sides) are often seen as being nothing more than reactionary cynics, resorting to insult over substance. Undoubtedly, some are, but why? If it's better to communicate without taunts, why doesn't everyone do so? You couldn't, so what drove you to step over the boundary of rational, insult-free discourse?

Greg T: "I'm going to wrap this up by suggesting that parapsychology could usefully devote a bit more time and resources to understanding how sceptics think, and making it part of its case." I wholeheartedly concur. Please do make a concerted effort to understand how skeptics think. You might discover that, when you do, you will be disabused of much of your confusion... but not necessarily in the way you may intend. For example, it might help if you could present a clear idea of what a skeptic is, rather than just hodgepodging groupings of various naysayers (hand-selected of course, to be depicted as universally mistaken) together and equating them all as one demonized group of opponents. From your discussion above, I cannot extricate what it is you mean by the word "skeptic," except that you seem to conclude that being one is a bad thing. Especially if one disagrees with you. It seems you have a rather wordy, and frankly abusive, way of trying to posit some kind of conspiracy of mental and/or emotional illness on the part of people who disagree with you. A singularly uninventive way of vilifying and deriding the person, rather than dealing with the failings of your subject matter. What you seem to be calling for is for this method to be adopted as a means of battling critics on a rhetorical level. How precisely does one make "understanding how skeptics think....part of [your]cause[?]" Again, I wholeheartedly endorse understanding how skeptics think. It likely will have quite a different effect than you are anticipating though... Just this style of rhetoric is precisely why we need an objective means for evaluation of claims. Hence methods of verification. Words are words. Evidence is evidence. What you have presented are a host of insulting, derogatory words attacking something you don't even have a clear idea of yourself. As such, your words are pretty much devoid of content.

This piece was a talk for members of the Society for Psychical Research. Hence it's one-sided tone. I don't mean that I don't stand by everything I said, but if I'd been talking to a mixed or uncommitted audience I'd have chosen a different subject, or presented some of these points in a different way. This particular audience understands the subject well and would have readily empathised with my points.

It's not clear from the written text, but I did acknowledge - since Professor Chris French was present and brought it up - that I was specifically talking about militant skeptics like James Randi, and the more extreme behaviours of psychologists like Richard Wiseman and Susan Blackmore. I certainly didn't mean to imply that everyone who disbelieves in the genuiness of psychical phenomena is an idiot.

I'm also fully aware that committed believers have their own mental blocks. But 'nasty and corrosive' - that's not something I generally recognise among paranormalists, and certainly not serious parapsychologists, except in a reaction of anger and frustration at assaults by people like James Randi, to whom that description really does apply in spades - and for that reason is at least understandable.

'Angry and excitable' might be a fair description of some (Victor Zammit). But those of us who are serious about this know that's not the way to communicate. All of us are affected by temperamental biases. The only difference is that some of us strive to recognise them and take them into account; others simply let themselves be controlled by them.

'Anecdotes abound ... of psi researchers who were taken in by an admitted hoax but dogmatically refused to believe it.' Yes, the Conan Doyle syndrome. You're right that some paranormal believers insist that a magician must be psychic because they can't figure out the trick. It's embarrassing and doesn't help our argument. But no serious psi researcher can afford to behave this way - the possibility of hoaxing has to be a constant preoccupation. If it isn't - as in the case of Randi's Project Alpha, for instance - the result is instant loss of credibility among their peers, let alone skeptics.

'... the idea that parapsychologists and their supporters are less insulting to their critics is clearly implied'. Yes I did imply that, and I can't think of any reason not to. Parapsychologists complain bitterly about dogmatic disbelievers, ideologues and so on. But they don't indulge in the casual playground jeering that Randi employs, as I understand it, as a deliberate technique to publicly shame the fools and fraudsters that he assumes us all to be. They don't have that luxury; they have to use arguments and persuasion. If you can come up with examples I'd be interested to hear them, but I'd argue it's not typical.

My perception is that skeptics are free with insults and abuse in a way that I don't find anywhere else - although I suspect it may be quite common in scientific controversies. I don't recall reading anywhere in psychical literature that skeptics are nincompoops, or not rowing with both oars in the water, or might have thinking defects or disturbed relations with reality - as Randi described parapsychologists in Flim-Flam!. It may exist on the margins but that sort of polemic just isn't characteristic of mainstream parapsychological discourse, as it so richly is of some of their militant opponents.

'Leiter is obviously intending to be insulting ...' Don't agree. He was recording his ideas and observations about the way skeptics behave, which you're free to disagree with - he wasn't laughing and pointing.

'What might be most insulting is your suggestion that cynics, climate-change denialists and creationists are the same sort of "skeptics" as Randi, Shermer, Gardener and the like.'... Creationists are not "evolution skeptics," they are evolution denialists with nothing but religious ideology to support their position.'

That was a bit provoking, I agree. Creationists and skeptics of the paranormal are at opposite ends of the intellectual spectrum. But it's legitimate to argue that militant skeptics are not really 'skeptics' in the literal sense, but denalists arguing from a profound and unshakeable belief in the mechanistic worldview. That may seriously get you going, but as long as militant skeptics like Randi and Gardner behave the way they do it's a reasonable conclusion to come to.

I don't know how much you know about psychical investigations, but this is the nub of my argument. It's one thing to disbelieve in the paranormal in a general way - from the beliefs of family, colleagues, peers; from a scientific education; from atheistic convictions and so on - but it's something else when, in order to protect this commitment, one has to perform all sorts of questionable intellectual manoevres, such as:

*refusing to engage with parapsychological investigations on any level as being of no interest, undoubtedly fraudulent, obviously nonsense, etc.

*engaging with them, but explaining them away with all kinds of implausible scenarios which in any other context no one would entertain for a moment

*carrying out experiments with psychics on television with a very precisely determined pre-agreed protocol, getting highly signficant results, and then refusing to accept the results as valid

*carrying out experiments in order to prove that, when properly conducted, the effect will not appear, getting an effect, and then explaining it away on the grounds of 'experimental flaws'

'If it's better to communicate without taunts, why doesn't everyone do so? You couldn't, so what drove you to step over the boundary of rational, insult-free discourse?' The creationist thing wasn't intended as a taunt - I can't think of anything else that could be remotely construed that way. My discussion was a serious attempt to get at what movitates extreme skeptics, and it's valid to point out that the fear of psi is a real phenomenon with identifiable effects.

If you found all this so insulting, could it be that you're just not used to skeptics being discussed in this way? Surely it's tame stuff compared with what gets said about psi researchers - in print, on your websites and at meetings in skeptics organisations - and it has the virtue of being reasoned argument supported by examples and evidence. Which you're welcome to disagree with, but preferably on questions of substance, rather than because it upsets you. You may not think this applies to you, but I've noticed that debunkers like Randi are often surprisingly thin-skinned when it's them being criticised.

In the end, it shouldn't be about hurt feelings but about the evidence. I spent several years getting to grips with psychical literature, and the investigations and arguments eventually convinced me that psychism is a genuine phenomenon. I'd like to be able to discuss my reasons with skeptics, but it's difficult when they're so certain it's all nonsense, refuse to listen, and use all kinds of colourful language to make that point. That's what motivates me to understand how they think.
 
Uffa, there's already twenty responses on the Paranormalia. I like the way over there Mark has said the reasons for psi-supporters to insult skeptics are different to the way skeptics insult psi-supporters, so the two can't be compared.

It's one thing to disbelieve in the paranormal in a general way - from the beliefs of family, colleagues, peers; from a scientific education; from atheistic convictions and so on - but it's something else when, in order to protect this commitment, one has to perform all sorts of questionable intellectual manoevres, such as:

*refusing to engage with parapsychological investigations on any level as being of no interest, undoubtedly fraudulent, obviously nonsense, etc.

Well, there's nothing wrong with not engaging in research because you have no interest in the matter.

*engaging with them, but explaining them away with all kinds of implausible scenarios which in any other context no one would entertain for a moment

Can anyone guess what this is referring to?

*carrying out experiments with psychics on television with a very precisely determined pre-agreed protocol, getting highly signficant results, and then refusing to accept the results as valid

Again, any ideas?

*carrying out experiments in order to prove that, when properly conducted, the effect will not appear, getting an effect, and then explaining it away on the grounds of 'experimental flaws'

I'm going to guess this is a reference to Blackmore's psi research when she was a student. Or rather, Berger's summary of Blackmore's research. Or, more likely, Carter's summary of Berger's summary of Blackmore's research.
 
In the end, it shouldn't be about hurt feelings but about the evidence

Yeah. And you can't produce any for your claim. That's sort of the point.

Sidenote: I've experienced that many believers take a question of evidence very personal. I'm guessing that the question of evidence is often in the believers world what constitutes a personal attack, an attack on ones reliability. This is a misunderstanding so gross that it often makes further communication impossible.

The freedom to postulate facts is, with some of these people, a strong held belief and virtue. Anyone can and should construct their own 'facts'. Trying to present them with the premise of the existence of facts on one side, and nonfacts on the other, is by this logic and relativistic world view a terrible insult. (the "it's true for ME"-argument) As mentioned, this is just my personal experience.

*carrying out experiments with psychics on television with a very precisely determined pre-agreed protocol, getting highly signficant results, and then refusing to accept the results as valid

*carrying out experiments in order to prove that, when properly conducted, the effect will not appear, getting an effect, and then explaining it away on the grounds of 'experimental flaws'

This is interesting. Why don't you produce some non controversial evidense for these non controversial facts you've presented? Or any evidence, if you by a mistake misrepresented the situation. Interesting, either way.

Respectfully Eirik
 
'... the idea that parapsychologists and their supporters are less insulting to their critics is clearly implied'. Yes I did imply that, and I can't think of any reason not to
You'll find plenty of reasons in the Abandon All Hope sub-forum. Try this thread for instance:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119487

in which I was called a liar, a criminal and insane, and told I should be locked up in prison or an asylum, simply for politely suggesting that a single anecdote was not conclusive proof that homeopathy works.
 
You'll find plenty of reasons in the Abandon All Hope sub-forum. Try this thread for instance:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119487

in which I was called a liar, a criminal and insane, and told I should be locked up in prison or an asylum, simply for politely suggesting that a single anecdote was not conclusive proof that homeopathy works.

I suspect Limbo will not be satisfied with this type of example, since homeopathy is not defended by paranormal researchers - the latter tend to focus on psi phenomena.

I'll post my thoughts about the author's reply in a seperate post.
 
Ersby, I wondered about what the reference was to as well. The TV one that is -- only one idea. Back in the mid-80's James Randi did a show called I believe James Randi Psychic Investigator - good stuff - and one chap actually succeeded in a test - a pendulum dowser. Randi pointed out that unfortunately owing to a mistake during a rehearsal the correct solution was flashed on a screen I think -- so normal channels can not be ruuled out. I seem to remember though he was pretty gracious about admitting the psychic had suceeded, but just said there could be a perfectly normal explanation. I can;t remeber any details, and these could be wrong as i'm writing from memory from the book of the series published by I think Boxhall in about 1986, which I have not read for well over a decade. Maybe someone else can?

cj x
 
I've read the author's clarifications, and it does help interpret his intentions. He's made clear that the description 'skeptics' really is too vague, and that he was talking specifically about the skeptics he listed in the essay, rather than skeptics in general. He has invented a new term 'militant skeptic' for the purpose of understanding his point.

So: three things...

1. "Organized skepticism" has long recognized that there is an element that is counterproductive - as in "could you go help somebody else for awhile" - this is the subsection that I am pretty certain is OCPD. Pseudoskeptics, is the term we use. Based o my experience with how often this comes up at strategy meetings at every level of skepticism, I don't think he makes a good case that skeptics are not introspective.

2. I don't think the author has made a good case linking the behavior with the cognition he attributes, and I don't think he has made a case that it has anything to do with a skeptical point of view. He has not made any attempt to demonstrate that this type of behavior is unique to skepticism except to say that he thinks this is the case. I accept that he believes this. He has not explained why to my satisfaction, so I remain unconvinced.

Ironically, in the discussion that followed the author's blog entry, a psi advocate dedicated himself to hurling abuse at skeptics, supporting the case that absurd militancy is just part of the spectrum of human behavior, rather than specifically skeptical behavior.

3. The author also doesn't make a good case that the specific people he singled out (Grammatical question: can we 'single out' more than one person?) were actually experiencing the conflicting cognitions he listed: denial, cognitive dissonance, &c. It's still has the feel of a polemic dressed up a armchair psychoanalysis. Neither of these things contributes to progress in psi research, and certainly only contributes negatively to the prospects for future collaborative efforts.
 
Ersby, I wondered about what the reference was to as well. The TV one that is -- only one idea. Back in the mid-80's James Randi did a show called I believe James Randi Psychic Investigator - good stuff - and one chap actually succeeded in a test - a pendulum dowser.

cj x

I remember that show - I think it's on Google video somewhere. But going by the blogger's description of "highly significant", I didn't think he could be referring to that. Especially since it was one success in a six-programme-series of failures for psychics.

Oddly, that programme was part of my conversion to a more skeptical view of the paranormal. Not the show itself, rather the reaction of it from a psychic friend of mine. It was the week after that episode with the dowser had gone out, and we were talking about it and she triumphantly asked me if I saw how angry James Randi was when the dowser succeeded. I was surprised because I remember him being quite gracious.

The fact that we saw two different things, even though we were looking at the same show started me thinking about perception blah de blah.

Then a few weeks later, she started going on about how she was impressed by The Bible Code, and that really pushed me towards skepticism.
 
Oddly, that programme was part of my conversion to a more skeptical view of the paranormal. Not the show itself, rather the reaction of it from a psychic friend of mine. It was the week after that episode with the dowser had gone out, and we were talking about it and she triumphantly asked me if I saw how angry James Randi was when the dowser succeeded. I was surprised because I remember him being quite gracious.

That is my memory of the incident as well - Randi very gracious, offering a caveat, but admitting "defeat" and calling for further tests. :) I have thought it through and i think the show must have been around 1991?

Here we go --
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1944583

The quote cited in that thread would make a mighty fine sig. if i was not so keen to declare my religious baggage --
"But James, you're trying to explain it using logic. But what I do is completely illogical."

BTW Ersby, Kadath in the Cold Waste in the accursed plateau of Leng is better known generally as Cheltenham, not that far from you. Fancy a coffee one day? I suspect we might have quite a bit to talk about! Fully understand if you don't like meeting folks off forums of course. :)

cj x
 
Cheltenham is near Bristol, yes. Meeting up for a drink sounds like a plan. Are you ever in Bristol? PM me.
 

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