• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Split from: Hitchen's Signature Behavior

Whenever people who fancy themselves very tricky prattle about moving goalposts, I assume that they're telling me about a technique they favor. Am I supposed to believe in a monolithic left?

Am I supposed to believe that the guy who accuses "the left" of saying Bush is Hitler does not believe in a monolithic left, as in "the left"?

Do I regard Leslie Cagan as indistinguishable from Chuck Schumer? A silly question, but Alan Colmes apparently does. He famously called the old Castroite a "liberal." I wonder if that Democratic big tent is big enough to accommodate Kim Jong Il, given that it's not big enough for Joe Lieberman.

When Bob Beckel complains about Michael Moore's prominence at the Democratic Convention or the influence the BusHitler crowd, someone should explain to him that it's all in his imagination. There is no sense in debating the size or infuence of a phenomenon that doesn't exist. Right?

Boy, do I miss that crazy lady with the American flag hat. At least she had the excuse of being insane. What´s your excuse?
 
I Missed It

If you weren't so hot under the collar you might have realized it was a joke.

He's more like Mussolini.

I stand corrected. I don't know the poster and it is impossible for me to make that assessment from what was stated. For roughly five years, I've been tangling with bloggers and street protesters who scream that Bush is Hitler. Such types are not distinguished by subtle wit or a keen sense of irony.
 
Rally 'Round the Liar, Boys

:dl:

The sad part is that you probably don't get why this is so funny...


The sad part is that you regard Wolf Blitzer as an unbiased source. And thanks for pointing out all of those errors.

We all get the idea that it is in their interest for Republicans to demonstrate Joe Wilson's mendacity. Why, I wonder, have his fellow Democrats been giving lyin' Joe such a wide berth? Shouldn't they be attempting to counter the disinfo spread by Hitchens, Hayes, Byron York, Krauthammer, Jonah Goldberg, and few dozen other conservative pundits?
 
Last edited:
Bias Detected

Damn, I come to the TAM and meetings subforum and I find that the Politics subforum has invaded!! :eye-poppi ;)

I do not plan on getting involved in this one, folks, except to say Cleon and friends are well ahead on (debating) points, but in re: Hitchens', he is, IMHO, like Absinthe and Light Bondage during sex, an acquired taste.

And I'm out.


When you actually read what they write, their huge lead vanishes. You conjure up a N.Y. Times book reviewer tasked with criticizing a conservative book. His review copy got lost in the mail, but he hated it anyway.
 
Game Effort

Am I supposed to believe that the guy who accuses "the left" of saying Bush is Hitler does not believe in a monolithic left, as in "the left"?



Yes, a disturbingly large, extremely vocal segment of the left promotes this Bush-is-Hitler nonsense. No, I do not believe that everyone standing on the spectrum that extends from liberal Democrats to the fever swamps deserves to be labeled a loony-leftist. But, then, you already knew that.




Boy, do I miss that crazy lady with the American flag hat. At least she had the excuse of being insane. What´s your excuse?


I understand that the Bob Beckel anecdote was inconvenient to your deception. Your evasion was far from smooth.



Yep, no idea. :D


That's right, no idea. Ralph Kramden would remind you that "I know that you know that I know that you know..."
 
Last edited:
And, in addition to not providing evidence of your original claim you are now (and for several posts I might add) trying to change the claim. No one will argue that some people have compared Bush to Hitler. You made a stronger claim than that.

This is your first mention of Marxist groups.

Now that pomeroo has mentioned it, I think valid comparisons can be made between Bush and Hitler. Or maybe Bush and the Pope. To me, the people who support him seem to cheerfully brag about it no matter how egregious or inane the man is--and they seem to expect others to respect him who have no such knee-jerk allegiance. It's almost as if it does not matter how many people die at the hands of this mans "war on terror" or how screwed up the environment gets because of his deceit and cronyism--they still think he's sainted. Doesn't every body who has allegiances to any regime feel similarly about their leader. I can't figure it out. They cast aspersions against his political adversaries and expect others to know the reasons while ignoring an amazing amount of suffering and expenditure and lies by the guy. It just seems like they are brainwashed to me. They see people attacking him where I see people bending over backwards to respect an obvious buffoon. They pretend he's not religious even though I'm certain he'd gladly malign their secularity. They pretend all other options are worse without ever giving a reason. I dunno...isn't that the way the Nazis felt? We're they blinded to their leaders faults? Didn't they value loyalty over the truth? Didn't Hitler use biblical platitudes to preach his truth? Wasn't it about preserving the status quo for rich white christian guys? I guess I do find the zealotry of the right wing crowd a bit scary--it seems like church to me. They seem to smeer others without facts as pomeroo does--and then get mad when anyone points out an actual fact about their sacred cow that they don't feel is respectful. It seems the right wing skeptics where their party affiliation on their sleeve--wheras, for Randi and most others, you don't know unless you ask. I was disgusted when people cheered Hitchens' warmongering. I prefer Randi's "educate the young" approach. I think the warmongering right wing crowd is a blight on America when it comes to our relations with other countries. It reminds me of blind faith. Is that Hitleresque?
 
I stand corrected. I don't know the poster and it is impossible for me to make that assessment from what was stated. For roughly five years, I've been tangling with bloggers and street protesters who scream that Bush is Hitler. Such types are not distinguished by subtle wit or a keen sense of irony.
I'm so curious: why do you bother doing that, Pomeroo?

Why seek out the nuttiest people to get angry at? I don't get the point.

That's amazing to me that you didn't get the joke. I don't know the poster either, but it was patently obvious it was a gag. I wonder how many jokes you've missed and taken seriously because you're so eager to assume so many people are rabidly nuts. It does take a certain level of sophistication to get sarcasm and wit. Not a lot, but some. I'll bet you have it. Just relax. You'll laugh more.


I wasn't just quoting Blitzer, by the way, it was the various people who've checked it out with the CIA and found Wilson was correct.

And moreover, I was pointing out that the SOURCE for the claim about Plame/Wilson was quite biased: 3 GOP senators attaching a thought to the end of the official report. It wasn't part of the report proper. They didn't do their homework.

I don't know what the Hayes piece has to do with Hitchens' lack of hard evidence or misinformation about Plame/Wilson.
 
Now that pomeroo has mentioned it, I think valid comparisons can be made between Bush and Hitler.



The problem is that a truly rational thinker would find no valid comparisons between Bush and Hitler. Your ideology betrays you here.



Or maybe Bush and the Pope. To me, the people who support him seem to cheerfully brag about it no matter how egregious or inane the man is--and they seem to expect others to respect him who have no such knee-jerk allegiance. It's almost as if it does not matter how many people die at the hands of this mans "war on terror" or how screwed up the environment gets because of his deceit and cronyism--they still think he's sainted.



So, who is bragging? I commented on a different thread that I disagree with Bush on more issues than I agree with him. You impute to me a "knee-jerk allegiance" that exists in your own mind and nowhere else.

The remark about "this man's" war on terror tells me much of what I need to know. I gather that the jihadists are passive reactors, occasionally lashing out in response to some American provocation. That's a step up from the conspiracist fantasy that the jihadists aren't real, but I'm not too reassured by it.



Doesn't every body who has allegiances to any regime feel similarly about their leader. I can't figure it out. They cast aspersions against his political adversaries and expect others to know the reasons while ignoring an amazing amount of suffering and expenditure and lies by the guy. It just seems like they are brainwashed to me. They see people attacking him where I see people bending over backwards to respect an obvious buffoon.


I'll help you to figure it out. Your inability to meet the arguments of people who don't regard Bush as a devil figure never shakes your quasi-religious faith in your own prejudices. It simply doesn't occur to you that what your side brands as lies are simply policy disagreements. Admittedly, it is easier to call someone a liar than to develop a cogent argument.
If you want to try selling me the notion that Bush hasn't been vilified to a degree unseen since Lincoln's day, you probably won't succeed.



They pretend he's not religious even though I'm certain he'd gladly malign their secularity.


Who is guilty of this? I take Bush at his word that religion has entered his life. Your certainty about his eagerness to malign the secularity of others is based on absolutely nothing. People who actually know the man paint him as tolerant and undogmatic. Of course, what would they know?


They pretend all other options are worse without ever giving a reason. I dunno...isn't that the way the Nazis felt? We're they blinded to their leaders faults? Didn't they value loyalty over the truth? Didn't Hitler use biblical platitudes to preach his truth? Wasn't it about preserving the status quo for rich white christian guys? I guess I do find the zealotry of the right wing crowd a bit scary--it seems like church to me.


Some of us find the zealotry of the unthinking left pretty scary.



They seem to smeer others without facts as pomeroo does--and then get mad when anyone points out an actual fact about their sacred cow that they don't feel is respectful.



My facts are quite solid. This discussion began when I complained about MoveOn's odious Bush-is-Hitler stance. I was met with the usual disingenuous counterattack: Move On repudiated the ads, which it did not create.

True, but it didn't repudiate anything until the RNC and various Jewish groups raised hell. The ads were entries in a contest to produce some righteous Bush-bashing, but someone selected the Bush-as-Hitler crap to appear on the website. We get the idea that the organization will, as official policy, distance itself from such crackpottery (which, incidentally, you don't regard as crackpottery at all). Denying that the ads reflect the sentiments of a significant portion of Move On's membership is pure butt-covering. It strikes me as an untenable position.


It seems the right wing skeptics where their party affiliation on their sleeve--wheras, for Randi and most others, you don't know unless you ask. I was disgusted when people cheered Hitchens' warmongering. I prefer Randi's "educate the young" approach. I think the warmongering right wing crowd is a blight on America when it comes to our relations with other countries. It reminds me of blind faith. Is that Hitleresque?


Again, calling Hitchens a warmonger for recognizing the evil of Saddam Hussein and advocating his removal speaks volumes.

To answer your last question, the desire of many of us to change the dynamic that currently prevails in the Middle East is not Hitleresque.
 
Last edited:
Not So Obvious

I'm so curious: why do you bother doing that, Pomeroo?

Why seek out the nuttiest people to get angry at? I don't get the point.


I do it for the same reason I confront the 9/11 conspiracists. Sorry if the following sounds like preaching, and I do realize that you already understand the point I'm about to make, but political discourse, the exchange of serious ideas, is vital to a democracy. We can--and should--argue with one another about various issues that affect our lives. When we marshal our evidence and attempt to persuade the other side, we are engaging in civilized debate. For people committed to the promotion of extreme, irrational views, civilized debate is a losing proposition. They must demonize the opposition, grotesquely distorting all opposing views, and in the process, they tend to develop a lynch-mob mentality. For conspiracy fantasists and the America-hating far left, their kangaroo courts have already convicted the villains and they don't want any evidence muddying the water.

The presumption that I'm angry is, as you know, a tactical device. By characterizing me as a choleric sort, you hope to convey the impression that my arguments lack intellectual rigor.


That's amazing to me that you didn't get the joke. I don't know the poster either, but it was patently obvious it was a gag. I wonder how many jokes you've missed and taken seriously because you're so eager to assume so many people are rabidly nuts. It does take a certain level of sophistication to get sarcasm and wit. Not a lot, but some. I'll bet you have it. Just relax. You'll laugh more.


Maybe the poster was joking. Neither you nor I have any way of knowing. That we are arguing over the question, incidentally, suggests that the technique of our aspiring satirist, assuming that's what he is, could stand sharpening. When you write that his intent "was patently obvious," you really can't expect to fool many people. How was it obvious? The statement that he is a Democrat who thinks that Bush is like Hitler can either be taken at face value or we can invest it with irony.

Lacking any objective basis for making a judgment, we will tailor our interpretations to suit our respective stakes in the outcome. Frankly, it serves my interests if I can point to another Democrat who embraces the Bush-as-Hitler trope. You, on the other hand, want to demonstrate that the sentiment I rail against is shared by just a few wackos. I continue to contend that you're fighting a hopeless battle. What is, in fact, patently obvious is that a disturbingly large slice of leftist opinion gives voice to this particular slander of Bush (is it necessary for me to direct your attention to a post on this very page?).
You are trying to sanitize people who are saying that they don't want your help. They are only too happy to proclaim from the rooftops that Bush is a Nazi. You may be embarrassed by the excess, but they are not--they should be, but they aren't.

If you knew something about the poster, your opinion of his intent would outweigh mine. You acknowledge that you don't know any more than I do, and yet you manage to project confidence. Is it real, or are you blowing smoke? Forgive me, but I'm not yet persuaded that your level of sophistication dwarfs my own.


You're mistaken about how eager I am to assume that people are "rabidly nuts." I am dismayed that so many really are.


I wasn't just quoting Blitzer, by the way, it was the various people who've checked it out with the CIA and found Wilson was correct.


No, Wilson was not correct. He didn't conduct any sort of investigation and was caught lying about documents he could not have seen.


And moreover, I was pointing out that the SOURCE for the claim about Plame/Wilson was quite biased: 3 GOP senators attaching a thought to the end of the official report. It wasn't part of the report proper. They didn't do their homework.

I don't know what the Hayes piece has to do with Hitchens' lack of hard evidence or misinformation about Plame/Wilson.

Hitchens makes a compelling case that Zawahie was attempting to negotiate the purchase of yellowcake.

Look, you seem to be a decent guy, and there's no reason why this discussion should become acrimonious. Why don't we see how the Libby trial develops and resume our debate later?
 
I do not plan on getting involved in this one, folks, except to say Cleon and friends are well ahead on (debating) points, but in re: Hitchens', he is, IMHO, like Absinthe and Light Bondage during sex, an acquired taste.

Wow... three things I enjoy, but it's been too long since I last experienced them.
 
He was most likely intoxicated while at the podium. Hitchens is well-known as an alcoholic, to the point where he even makes jokes about it. (I think he made a crack about "turning water into wine" being his favorite miracle.)

Seriously, this is not news to anyone, not even his supporters.
Oh, well I didn't know, but thanks for the info. Alcohol certainly contributes frequently to belligerent behavior.
 
Hitchens makes a compelling case that Zawahie was attempting to negotiate the purchase of yellowcake.

Look, you seem to be a decent guy, and there's no reason why this discussion should become acrimonious. Why don't we see how the Libby trial develops and resume our debate later?

I never saw the 'compelling' part, the most I saw was circumstantial. Saddam was into many scams, and Niger is also a hotbed of scams and dirty money. The rhetoric had a 'compelling' tone to it, which Hitchens does very well.
 
Forgive me if I am mistaken, and I'll be referring to the DVD's to make sure I'm certain, but I thought that during that outburst Hitchens said (almost mumbled under his breath) something to the effect that "This applies to Judaeism and Chrisitianity equally" and then continued on against Islam.

Did anyone else catch that or am I mistaken? Because that's the point, for me, where his whole diatribe turned into being about all religion, and by extension lack of critical thinking.

I'm not going to apologize for boorish behaviour, but I will say that it seemed that Hitchens' response to Dikkers was such that it was a knee jerk reaction to the "same old ill informed blather" that maybe he was accustomed to getting accosted with so he just went off.

Also, to whoever contrasted Hitchens and Randi, I just wanted to say I found that irony quite delicious, given recent discussions around here about the "tone" of SWIFT sometimes.

I respect and admire both men because from my perspective they both appear to stand by their principles and not suffer fools gladly.

And I'm out.
 

Back
Top Bottom