Split from: Hitchen's Signature Behavior

[pomeroo]

CLarification Needed

I confess that I'm mystified. Are you actually pretending that leftists haven't been comparing Bush to Hitler for the last five years? I mean, seriously? Would it help to link to hundreds of articles on conservative sites that complain about this despicable practice? I assume you're committed to claiming that everyone who complains is hallucinating. Do I have this right, or am I misrepresenting your position? Can you possibly be contending that leftists DO NOT ROUTINELY compare Bush to Hitler? I can't be the only person who is blinking in disbelief.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

Would it help to link to hundreds of articles on conservative sites that complain about this despicable practice? I assume you're committed to claiming that everyone who complains is hallucinating.

Here's a novel idea: Why don't you do what people are asking for and provide links to the organizations you cited routinely comparing Bush to Hitler?

 

[Geek Goddess]

But ok, let's play this game.

"Bushitler" generates 87,600 results.

"Hitlery" generates 94,500. "Hitlary" generates an additional 19,100, for a grand total of 113,600.

Care to comment? Or are comparisons with Hitler only objectionable if the target is Bush?

Goddess Hitler got 595,000 hits. I win.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

Sorry, we of the left have been disparaging you as "Geek Hitler" which only gets two pages of hits. Soros just doesn't pay us as much for your disparagement.

 

[Cleon]

I assume you're committed to claiming that everyone who complains is hallucinating.

No. The only one who has made any claims is you. Claims that you have failed to substantiate, and in at least one glaring instance (the Moveon.org bit) was completely debunked.

You're the one making generalized claims about "the left," MoveOn.org, and more. Not me.

Either put up, or shut up.

ETA: Still no comment about "Hitlery?" I wonder why that is...

 

[pomeroo]

I Surrender

Here's a novel idea: Why don't you do what people are asking for and provide links to the organizations you cited routinely comparing Bush to Hitler?

I tried pointing out that for five years I have been arguing with people on Cannonfire, the Democratic Underground, Democrats.com, Brad's blog, etc., for comparing Bush to Hitler. I've heard lots of reasons why Bush IS similar to Hitler. Nobody, until now, has tried claiming that I'm dreaming--that I'm imagining that this is happening. Insane though it may be, I'll admit that what's being attempted here is a creative approach.

I once had an economics professor who offered these wise words: On occasion, you will encounter people who point at the noonday sun and insist that it's an unusually bright full moon. Keep in mind that you will NOT win an argument with such people.

Now, I'm perfectly willing to throw in the towel here. That sea of posters I grew accustomed to seeing at "peace" marches sponsored by A.N.S.W.E.R and Nion and other Marxist groups, the ones depicting Bush with a Hitler mustache--all in my head. It's an illusion. Never happened. Those protesters at the Republican National Convention two years ago with their Bush-as-Hitler posters--we all imagined it.

This is towering madness, but I know when I'm licked.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

And, in addition to not providing evidence of your original claim you are now (and for several posts I might add) trying to change the claim. No one will argue that some people have compared Bush to Hitler. You made a stronger claim than that.

This is your first mention of Marxist groups.

 

[Cleon]

Nobody, until now, has tried claiming that I'm dreaming--that I'm imagining that this is happening. Insane though it may be, I'll admit that what's being attempted here is a creative approach.

I'll give you credit. You've made an art form out of completely evading the point, moving the goalposts, and then making an argument from incredulity out of a complete strawman.

It's amusing, if nothing else. You've pretty much hit every logical fallacy in the book at least once, including a brand-new one (argument from Google count).

 

[pomeroo]

Debunking the "Debunker"

No. The only one who has made any claims is you. Claims that you have failed to substantiate, and in at least one glaring instance (the Moveon.org bit) was completely debunked.

You're the one making generalized claims about "the left," MoveOn.org, and more. Not me.

Either put up, or shut up.

ETA: Still no comment about "Hitlery?" I wonder why that is...

Your "debunking," by the oddest coincidence, is identical to the debunkings I've received on the 9/11 fantasy sites. I am frequently assured that "science" has "proved" that the Twin Towers were brought down by explosives. I invariably find their technique as impressive as I found yours.

For the record, Moveon.org sponsored a contest to create anti-Bush ads. Two ads comparing Bush to Hitler (Bush morphs into Hitler--or it was the reverse?--in one) appeared on the organization's website. The Republican National Committee and various Jewish groups raised hell. Move on removed the offending ads. So far, we're all on the same page.

Move On's official line is that the ads were unpopular. I, along with every other conservative and, I suspect, many centrist Democrats, think they're lying: lefties compare Bush to Hitler all the time and they're not the least bit shy about it. But, if that's Move On's official line, then we should take their word for it. Nobody suggested that the ads were created by Move On. Your "complete" debunking debunked absolutely nothing. But, then, you already knew that.

I've lost count of the number of times Alan Colmes, or Bob Beckel, or Kirstin Powers has countered Hannity, or O'Reilly, or Mike Gallagher by pointing out that mainstream Democrats reject the Bush-is-Hitler nonsense. Are you suggesting that they're taking the wrong tack? Perhaps they should try saying, "You are getting very sleepy. Your eyes are heavy. You are drifting off. When you awake, you will not remember anyone on the left comparing George Bush to Adolf Hitler. It has never happened. Ever."

Initially, I thought we misunderstood each other. Your insistence that you've debunked something is a bit too reminiscent of my jousts with the fantasists. Let me repeat: this discussion is highly disingenuous.

Are there rightwing nuts who compare Hillary to Hitler? Sure. You just don't see thousands of them in the streets waving posters.

 

[LostAngeles]

Your "debunking," by the oddest coincidence, is identical to the debunkings I've received on the 9/11 fantasy sites. I am frequently assured that "science" has "proved" that the Twin Towers were brought down by explosives. I invariably find their technique as impressive as I found yours.

For the record, Moveon.org sponsored a contest to create anti-Bush ads. Two ads comparing Bush to Hitler (Bush morphs into Hitler--or it was the reverse?--in one) appeared on the organization's website. The Republican National Committee and various Jewish groups raised hell. Move on removed the offending ads. So far, we're all on the same page.

Move On's official line is that the ads were unpopular. I, along with every other conservative and, I suspect, many centrist Democrats, think they're lying: lefties compare Bush to Hitler all the time and they're not the least bit shy about it. But, if that's Move On's official line, then we should take their word for it. Nobody suggested that the ads were created by Move On. Your "complete" debunking debunked absolutely nothing. But, then, you already knew that.

I've lost count of the number of times Alan Colmes, or Bob Beckel, or Kirstin Powers has countered Hannity, or O'Reilly, or Mike Gallagher by pointing out that mainstream Democrats reject the Bush-is-Hitler nonsense. Are you suggesting that they're taking the wrong tack? Perhaps they should try saying, "You are getting very sleepy. Your eyes are heavy. You are drifting off. When you awake, you will not remember anyone on the left comparing George Bush to Adolf Hitler. It has never happened. Ever."

Initially, I thought we misunderstood each other. Your insistence that you've debunked something is a bit too reminiscent of my jousts with the fantasists. Let me repeat: this discussion is highly disingenuous.

Are there rightwing nuts who compare Hillary to Hitler? Sure. You just don't see thousands of them in the streets waving posters.

That's nice dear, but I don't see a single cite in any of your posts, simply unbacked assertations and anecdotes.

If you wouldn't mind taking the time before your next post, to do the research and pull up a few links substantiating your claims, we'd appreciate it greatly.

Thank you again.

P.S. If you don't know where to start, here is as good a place as any.

 

[Cleon]

Your "debunking," by the oddest coincidence, is identical to the debunkings I've received on the 9/11 fantasy sites.

And more fallacies. Will they never end...

For the record, Moveon.org sponsored a contest to create anti-Bush ads. Two ads comparing Bush to Hitler (Bush morphs into Hitler--or it was the reverse?--in one) appeared on the organization's website. The Republican National Committee and various Jewish groups raised hell. Move on removed the offending ads. So far, we're all on the same page.

Move On's official line is that the ads were unpopular.

Did MoveOn endorse, produce, fund, or support said ads in any way? So far the evidence, contrary to your original claim, indicates a resounding "no."

I, along with every other conservative and, I suspect, many centrist Democrats, think they're lying:

So first, you're claiming to speak for "every other conservative." (Trying to emulate Hitchens' arrogance again, I see.)

Second, you can think whatever you please. You can think MoveOn is lying, you can think 9/11 was an Israeli conspiracy, you can think Bush was right and that Iraqi WMDs either have been found or about to be. (Hey, you wouldn't be alone, Neal Boortz is still convinced they've been found.)

But get this. I don't CARE what you think. I don't care what Hitchens thinks, what Michael Moore thinks, what Janeane Garofalo thinks, or what Binky the mother****ing Clown thinks.

Show. Me. The. Evidence.

So far you haven't done so. You've established that at least some high-profile conservatives have made the same claim, but the evidence of a MoveOn-backed campaign to compare Bush with Hitler seems to be somewhat lacking.

Nobody suggested that the ads were created by Move On.

Really?

So when you said "if you want to pretend that MoveOn hasn't made a practice of comparing Bush to Hitler, you run into a brick wall of reality," what exactly were you referring to?

So far the ONLY example of MoveOn supposedly engaging in this "practice" has been the ads, which you correctly note were NOT created by MoveOn--nor were they endorsed, produced, funded, or supported by MoveOn in any way.

So where is this supposed "practice of comparing Bush to Hitler" that you attribute to MoveOn?

I've lost count of the number of times Alan Colmes, or Bob Beckel, or Kirstin Powers has countered Hannity, or O'Reilly, or Mike Gallagher by pointing out that mainstream Democrats reject the Bush-is-Hitler nonsense.

So if that's the case, where's the great big giant "leftist" Bush=Hitler campaign you keep going on about about?

(...And we're back to a demand for evidence, which I'm sure you will not supply.)

Are there rightwing nuts who compare Hillary to Hitler? Sure. You just don't see thousands of them in the streets waving posters.

Ahhh...So you're willing to dismiss the ones who dismiss the conservatives who say "Hitlery" as a few "nuts," but you won't similarly dismiss the ones who compare Bush to Hitler. That's very interesting.

Do you have any evidence that "Bushitler" is more popular among critics of Bush than "Hitlery" is among conservatives? Any evidence at all? Or just repetition of the same opinion by those who share yours?


Getting back to something resembling on-topic, if you want to make a case that partisan political speeches belong at a skepticism conference, you should probably that there's some critical thinking involved.

 

[pomeroo]

No Sale

That's nice dear, but I don't see a single cite in any of your posts, simply unbacked assertations and anecdotes.

If you wouldn't mind taking the time before your next post, to do the research and pull up a few links substantiating your claims, we'd appreciate it greatly.

Thank you again.

P.S. If you don't know where to start, here is as good a place as any.

Actually, I would very much mind taking any more time to post links that get ignored or distorted. The National Review, the Weekly Standard, and Commentary, to name only the journals that immediately spring to mind, have published articles examining the left's Bush-as-Hitler trope. You are pretending--and doing a highly unconvincing job--that the vile smear is given voice by a tiny fringe. You are wrong. If you want to peddle snake oil about a comparable rightwing element that routinely compares Hillary to Bush, you're still blowing smoke. There will be no articles in leftist journals about "all" those conservatives who employ Nazi smears because there just aren't very many--as you know.

It's funny that whenever people try to con me by criticizing MY use of logic, their own capacity for logical argument turns out to be negligible.

 

[delphi_ote]

Hitchens basically makes a living out of being an ass. No human could possibly hold all of the extreme points of view he supposedly does and live day to day life. To some degree, I think his career is performance art. He enjoys his life as the profound, poetic contrarian, taking stances nobody could possibly defend and railing on them long enough and eloquently enough to get people to consider the issue with an open mind.

Please understand that I like Hitchens very much, I just hope Dikkers didn't take him too seriously and get offended. I'd like to have both of them back next year. Jon Stewart seems to understand Hitchens. I hope Dikkers has the same sensibility.

ETA And wasn't it the most exciting part of the panel discussion? As soon as Dikkers opened his mouth, I knew we were in for a ride.

 

[Cleon]

Actually, I would very much mind taking any more time to post links that get ignored or distorted. The National Review, the Weekly Standard, and Commentary, to name only the journals that immediately spring to mind, have published articles examining the left's Bush-as-Hitler trope.

No. They've presented opinion pieces about it.

The fact that you cannot differentiate between "opinion" and "evidence" speaks volumes.

You are pretending--and doing a highly unconvincing job--that the vile smear is given voice by a tiny fringe. You are wrong.

Then show us the evidence of that, already.

Repeated Assertion != Evidence. Yes, even if the assertion is also made by others.

Also, before you go on about "imagining" things, I should also point out:

Incredulity at Strawman != Evidence.

Tough, ain't it?

 

[delphi_ote]

have published articles examining the left's Bush-as-Hitler trope

LINK to the articles mentioned and your argument is made for you.

 

[LostAngeles]

Actually, I would very much mind taking any more time to post links that get ignored or distorted. The National Review, the Weekly Standard, and Commentary, to name only the journals that immediately spring to mind, have published articles examining the left's Bush-as-Hitler trope. You are pretending--and doing a highly unconvincing job--that the vile smear is given voice by a tiny fringe. You are wrong. If you want to peddle snake oil about a comparable rightwing element that routinely compares Hillary to Bush, you're still blowing smoke. There will be no articles in leftist journals about "all" those conservatives who employ Nazi smears because there just aren't very many--as you know.

It's funny that whenever people try to con me by criticizing MY use of logic, their own capacity for logical argument turns out to be negligible.

Actually, I've been sitting back and observing and would like to see some support for your assertions.

Welcome to the JREF forum, my dear, where you are expected to produce evidence for your claims.

 

[pomeroo]

Yeah, Yeah

Actually, I've been sitting back and observing and would like to see some support for your assertions.

Welcome to the JREF forum, my dear, where you are expected to produce evidence for your claims.

Welcome yourself. I've spent a little too much time with 9/11 conspiracists who have learned the trick of feigning a rational demeanor while spouting fantastic nonsense to be taken in by the transparent sophistry on display here. If you want to pretend that there exists a contingent of conservatives who liken Hillary to Hitler comparable to the enormous number of leftists, from glassy-eyed "no-blood-for-oil" loons to Michael Moore Democrats (shame on them!), who have played this disgraceful game for five years, well, be my guest. I'm not buying any bridges or used cars from you. You are as logical as the twoofers.

 

[Cleon]

Welcome yourself. I've spent a little too much time with 9/11 conspiracists who have learned the trick of feigning a rational demeanor while spouting fantastic nonsense to be taken in by the transparent sophistry on display here. If you want to pretend that there exists a contingent of conservatives who liken Hillary to Hitler comparable to the enormous number of leftists, from glassy-eyed "no-blood-for-oil" loons to Michael Moore Democrats (shame on them!), who have played this disgraceful game for five years, well, be my guest. I'm not buying any bridges or used cars from you. You are as logical as the twoofers.

*yaaaaaawn*.

More over-the-top rhetoric, still zero evidence. I will contain my shock and disbelief.

 

[LostAngeles]

Welcome yourself. I've spent a little too much time with 9/11 conspiracists who have learned the trick of feigning a rational demeanor while spouting fantastic nonsense to be taken in by the transparent sophistry on display here. If you want to pretend that there exists a contingent of conservatives who liken Hillary to Hitler comparable to the enormous number of leftists, from glassy-eyed "no-blood-for-oil" loons to Michael Moore Democrats (shame on them!), who have played this disgraceful game for five years, well, be my guest. I'm not buying any bridges or used cars from you. You are as logical as the twoofers.

Can you keep straight who you've been talking to? I just popped up to echo the call evidence. You've been discussing the matter with Cleon and skeptigirl.

Or are you misreading the simple joy of my avatar?

 

[Cleon]

Can you keep straight who you've been talking to? I just popped up to echo the call evidence. You've been discussing the matter with Cleon and skeptigirl.

Or are you misreading the simple joy of my avatar?

You're just part of the Conspiracy Campaign, Lost.