"Spent," a Social Issues game

[Antiquehunter]

This is what is pissing me off RandFan:

Then you should understand perfectly well why your earlier argument is false. Hard work and perseverance isn't a guarantee of anything. It only increases the likelihood of improving one's lot in life.

This is one of the memes that I seriously want to attack now that I've moved from the right. I used it so often I've got monitor burn in my head. It's not as if there is no point to hard work and perserverance. It's that the rhetoric is too easily used to stop thinking and debate.

"'Just try harder and be patient'. There, now we don't have to worry about poor people. That solves everything."

I never said that, I never implied that was my position. You're putting words into my mouth.

I did mention that I have had personal (anecdotal) experience with living in less than favorable circumstances, and I've successfully pulled through that. But I'm not so presumptuous or pretentious to suggest that everyone's problem is the same as my own, nor that what worked for me is what will work for everyone else.

What I object to is the idea that once one is trapped in the cycle of the working poor, that one is indeed, trapped in a hopeless & unwinnable situation. That this little object lesson game carries this theme is what irks me.

 

[RandFan]

I never said that, I never implied that was my position. You're putting words into my mouth.

Arguable but irrelevant. What concerns me is that you edited my post to make it look like I was putting words in your mouth. I wen't out of my way to make certain that I didn't put words in your mouth. I said:

Okay, so I don't want to be accused of a straw man. If that isn't your position then give us a workable solution...

I was more than willing to give you an opportunity to clarify your position. So, can we move on? None of this is relevant to anything. Do you have something substantive. I've explained why I believe that your position is untenable. Do you have a response?

 

[Antiquehunter]

I didn't edit your post - I simply snipped (verbatim) the relevant paragraphs to demonstrate why I was annoyed. If the surrounding text that I left out, in some way shows that you DIDN'T put words in my mouth, please show me.

My position is that the model portrayed by the game is flawed.

In a real life situation, someone who was in a difficult financial scenario has a number of options in front of them, at all times. Without examining a particular case of someone who is 'trapped' in a similar problem, I can't suggest all the various options that could be open to them. Nor do I expect anyone to open up their books, values & personal issues in an internet forum to be dissected.

Yes - people can be in an extremely difficult financial situation. Yes, many times those situations may appear to be hopeless - particularly to those who are in those situations.

However - the 'unwinnable' model projected by the game is simply not valid. Through a combination of any number of factors, which may include:

Hardwork
Perserverance
Sacrifice (on many different levels)
Frugality
Opportunism
Pursuit of all avenues of aid available (Government, Social, Individual)

People CAN get back on their feet. And can go on to get into better financial (and overall) personal situations.

Otherwise - if the game TRULY is unwinnable, as this little game would have you believe - then why do people even bother? And apathy & disillusionment at such a time isn't going to accomplish anything.

I was a member of the JREF community at a point in time when someone we both know, who is currently participating in this thread was having a really rough go of it, and was off & on the internet several times due to financial constraints. I was an active participant in trying to assist that individual, and I'm gratified to see that this same person certainly appears to be doing better today.

Perhaps this is why I'm somewhat over-sensitive to the insinuation that I'm in some way less than charitable / out of touch.

 

[RandFan]

I didn't edit your post - I simply snipped (verbatim) the relevant paragraphs to demonstrate why I was annoyed.

Therby editing my post to make it look like I was putting words in your mouth. Don't do that.

If the surrounding text that I left out, in some way shows that you DIDN'T put words in my mouth, please show me.

Do me a favor READ WHAT I WRITE.

Okay, so I don't want to be accused of a straw man. If that isn't your position then give us a workable solution...

Okay, we'll take it slow.

1. Note how I don't want to be accused of a straw man (which you did anyway).
2. Look at the bolded text. Please note the logical operator "if"? Do you see that?
3. Now, note the text following the "if"? I'm stating that it might not be your position (though it seems that it is).

"If that isn't your position." In other words, I'm conceding that it might NOT be your position.

Do you see it now? Now do you see why I'M GETTING PISSED?

I'll address the rest of your post when you acknowledge that I have made every effort not to put words in your mouth. Because I'm very sensitive about that.