Special Pleading for Alchoholics Anonymous

[I Ratant]

...
2. Came to belief that a power other than ourselves. (You will notice that I don't use god, in fact I have recovery books where the word god is blacked out.) This is to say: I must do something different" But it is the oookiest part of the program. Many groups allow you to interpret Higher Power as you wish. Some don't.

3. Made a decision to turn our lives over to god...
....

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Nope!
Only YOU can stop your drinking problem!
Invoking an outside agency just lets you relapse, and blame that outside agency for it.
"One is too many, six aren't enough", is all you need to tell yourself when the urge (which NEVER goes away) makes itself known.

 

[Dancing David]

I agree, it is the Big Choice as Trimpey says. For me the HP was not using. Simple and direct. You have to choose not to use, which takes some insight. As I said people start to relapse long before they get to the liquor store.

My favorite quote
"If you are going to drown yourself, don't torment yourself in the shallow ater."

 

[cgallaga]

the urge (which NEVER goes away)

I disagree.

 

[Dymanic]

So do I.

 

[I Ratant]

That little demon keeps trying to get my attention, after 35 years!
It's not a strong urge, but it's always lurking.

 

[godofpie]

.
Nope!
Only YOU can stop your drinking problem!
Invoking an outside agency just lets you relapse, and blame that outside agency for it.
"One is too many, six aren't enough", is all you need to tell yourself when the urge (which NEVER goes away) makes itself known.

You left out the last part of the 3rd step. Here it is in its entirety.

"Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him. " Emphasis theirs.
As an agnostic going in to AA and as an atheist now, the last part of the 3rd step, and the Chapter to the Agnostic in the big book, gave me all the tools I needed to get and stay sober without having to believe in jebus. But whatever works for you. I have never known anyone to begrudge someone for finding a path to sobriety other than AA. But, as someone mentioned in a previous post, being un-drunk is not the same thing as being sober. Because of the fellowship of AA, I live a happy and sober life today and have sole custody of my daughter which is a long way from where I started 12 years ago last month.

 

[cgallaga]

That little demon keeps trying to get my attention, after 35 years!
It's not a strong urge, but it's always lurking.

If that were me I would say the treatment has failed.

 

[Dymanic]

I disagree.

 

[cgallaga]

No really thats IS what I would say.

 

[tyr_13]

You left out the last part of the 3rd step. Here it is in its entirety.

"Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him. " Emphasis theirs.
As an agnostic going in to AA and as an atheist now, the last part of the 3rd step, and the Chapter to the Agnostic in the big book, gave me all the tools I needed to get and stay sober without having to believe in jebus. But whatever works for you. I have never known anyone to begrudge someone for finding a path to sobriety other than AA. But, as someone mentioned in a previous post, being un-drunk is not the same thing as being sober. Because of the fellowship of AA, I live a happy and sober life today and have sole custody of my daughter which is a long way from where I started 12 years ago last month.

Congratulations. But you did that. You deserve all the credit. You were never powerless, and no higher power, not god, not Josh, not a rock, can take credit for your ability to overcome that problem. You might have used AA, but you made it work. Any organization that works PUBLISHES their success rate.

 

[Dancing David]

The point of powerlessness is that you can't control the use of a substance. So it is not that you don't have will power or moral fiber. If you use, you will return to addicted patterns of behavior (although after long term remission some people do seem to be able to use).

So 'redrinking' strategies don't work for addicts, the only choice that works is to avoid use, thats all.

An addict who 'just has one drink', will usually return to whatever full bore they have in their use.

The main issue about addiction is that it is behavioral, addicts seem to have difficulty moderating or controling their using behaviors. So while some people (most in fact) will just have one, addicts won't. they will go to full use because they can't control their use.

The choice is to aknowledge you can't control it and avoid it.

 

[GreyICE]

Congratulations. But you did that. You deserve all the credit. You were never powerless, and no higher power, not god, not Josh, not a rock, can take credit for your ability to overcome that problem. You might have used AA, but you made it work. Any organization that works PUBLISHES their success rate.

Okay, define a success.

 

[Dymanic]

No really thats IS what I would say.

No it isn't.

Seriously, I'm not just being argumentative just for its own sake (though I do occasionally do that). It's just that one of the things I see a lot of in AA is a certain rigidity in thinking. Come to meetings or you WILL get drunk; that sort of thing. I think that for a person new to recovery, that actually works. It pretty much has to, because most of us aren't capable of anything else at first. I see active alcoholism as a disorder characterized by a lack of flexibility in thinking; an inability to adapt, to change, to grow.

As I mentioned above, "success" in the program can mean different things for different people. In many ways, I am a different person from the one I was when I first got to AA, so it's no surprise that I'd be inclined to gauge my own success differently now than I did then. Over the first few weeks and months, I was a success as long as I didn't drink or use -- but as the months started turning into years, that ceased to seem like quite enough. It couldn't continue to be me just gritting my teeth and toughing it out when confronted with some life challenge; I came to recognize that what I needed was genuine coping skills, and I came to believe that I too was capable of developing them.

I also find it useful as a metaphor to regard my "disease" as an entity that lurks inside my brain, and even though its voice isn't nearly as loud as it once was, it's still there. While that voice still tries to persuade me that "they're all out to get me" and "I'm too hip for the room" and nonsense like that, it has mostly given up on the direct approach of simply telling me to drink. But significant aspects of human society are wrapped around alcohol, and while it's been a long time since I experienced anything I'd really call an "urge" to drink, I do have a desire to be included in some of those festivities (which is a bit ironic, because at the end of my drinking career, I had become almost completely isolated socially). Drinking, and all that goes along with it, can look pretty good on TV, and while I'm no more immune to that appeal than the next guy, I'm no more susceptible to it either.

So it isn't that grading the success of the treatment today on the basis of whether I experienced an "urge" to drink would be wrong exactly; it's just that it would be applying a standard that is no longer appropriate. It's not about that any more.

 

[cgallaga]

Seriously? You really think you know what I would or wouldn't say?

 

[Dymanic]

No, "seriously", as in "I was joking, but all kidding aside:..."

 

[I Ratant]

No it isn't.

Seriously, I'm not just being argumentative just for its own sake (though I do occasionally do that). It's just that one of the things I see a lot of in AA is a certain rigidity in thinking. Come to meetings or you WILL get drunk; that sort of thing. I think that for a person new to recovery, that actually works. It pretty much has to, because most of us aren't capable of anything else at first. I see active alcoholism as a disorder characterized by a lack of flexibility in thinking; an inability to adapt, to change, to grow.

As I mentioned above, "success" in the program can mean different things for different people. In many ways, I am a different person from the one I was when I first got to AA, so it's no surprise that I'd be inclined to gauge my own success differently now than I did then. Over the first few weeks and months, I was a success as long as I didn't drink or use -- but as the months started turning into years, that ceased to seem like quite enough. It couldn't continue to be me just gritting my teeth and toughing it out when confronted with some life challenge; I came to recognize that what I needed was genuine coping skills, and I came to believe that I too was capable of developing them.

I also find it useful as a metaphor to regard my "disease" as an entity that lurks inside my brain, and even though its voice isn't nearly as loud as it once was, it's still there. While that voice still tries to persuade me that "they're all out to get me" and "I'm too hip for the room" and nonsense like that, it has mostly given up on the direct approach of simply telling me to drink. But significant aspects of human society are wrapped around alcohol, and while it's been a long time since I experienced anything I'd really call an "urge" to drink, I do have a desire to be included in some of those festivities (which is a bit ironic, because at the end of my drinking career, I had become almost completely isolated socially). Drinking, and all that goes along with it, can look pretty good on TV, and while I'm no more immune to that appeal than the next guy, I'm no more susceptible to it either.

So it isn't that grading the success of the treatment today on the basis of whether I experienced an "urge" to drink would be wrong exactly; it's just that it would be applying a standard that is no longer appropriate. It's not about that any more.

.
What he says.
I can attend parties, go to bars, order the Diet Pepsi and coffee, and have a good time, knowing the disaster that waits if I take the first one.

 

[tyr_13]

Okay, define a success.

Seeing as AA seems to think success is continuing to go to meetings, then would that do? How about self-reported success? How about the way other methods use to define success? How about ANY measure? Maybe the ability to resist the urge to drink?

How about failure rates? Compared to a sugar pill? Compared to other forms of treatment?

 

[godofpie]

Congratulations. But you did that. You deserve all the credit. You were never powerless, and no higher power, not god, not Josh, not a rock, can take credit for your ability to overcome that problem. You might have used AA, but you made it work. Any organization that works PUBLISHES their success rate.

Actually, they did it. The first six months of sobriety, I had no idea how to live sober. I depended on the knowledge and wisdom of those that had been there before me. Exactly what kind of "organization" do you think AA is? Are you under the impression that it exists to profit somehow? Below is the preamble that is read at the begging of every AA meeting.

"Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism.

The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.

There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions.

AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes.

Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."

Period. We don't except outside donations. Money is collected when we pass the hat at the end of a meeting. We don't have fundraisers, we don't have lobbyists. We don't ask the courts to force people to come to us. Actually, that is against our principles. I guess most people don't know it, but if you will take your little court paper thingy to the person chairing the meeting before the meeting starts, they will sign off on it and you can go about your way. As a matter of fact, you could probably sign your court papers yourself and never even show up for a meeting. The court doesn't have any idea who is chairing an AA meeting. Hence the 2nd A. At least, if I am chairing a meeting, that's the way it works.

 

[portlandatheist]

Actually, they did it. The first six months of sobriety, I had no idea how to live sober. I depended on the knowledge and wisdom of those that had been there before me. Exactly what kind of "organization" do you think AA is? Are you under the impression that it exists to profit somehow? Below is the preamble that is read at the begging of every AA meeting.

"Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism.

The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.

There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions.

AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes.

Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."

Period. We don't except outside donations. Money is collected when we pass the hat at the end of a meeting. We don't have fundraisers, we don't have lobbyists. We don't ask the courts to force people to come to us. Actually, that is against our principles. I guess most people don't know it, but if you will take your little court paper thingy to the person chairing the meeting before the meeting starts, they will sign off on it and you can go about your way. As a matter of fact, you could probably sign your court papers yourself and never even show up for a meeting. The court doesn't have any idea who is chairing an AA meeting. Hence the 2nd A. At least, if I am chairing a meeting, that's the way it works.

How would you compare AA with the Scientologist approach to addiction, i.e. : Narconon? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narconon Or Homeopathy? Or Acupuncture? Or Hypnotherapy? Is it better or worse and why?

 

[Soapy Sam]

.
What he says.
I can attend parties, go to bars, order the Diet Pepsi and coffee, and have a good time, knowing the disaster that waits if I take the first one.

A question.
Do you mean "If I have one drink, the amount of alcohol consumed will so reduce my self control / relax my inhibitions that I will have a second, leading to a chain reaction".

or

" There is a an uncontrollable craving for more after one".

or something else?

If I sat you in a chair in a lab (I've got a white coat and everything) and watch you down a shot of dry sherry- will you turn into a slavering monster, or will you just have to sit there for an hour till the desire for another fades?
I really find this all-or-nothing argument hard to credit. (Though if you believe it yourself, then by all means follow the wiser course).