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Spanking children doesn't work.

I'm not sure why you would say that. Are 3 year olds particularly heavy in a way that a non-parent can't understand?

They are particularly stubborn, as they are just starting to get the first inklings of independence.

However - when they have a tantrum in the supermarket, they often don't like to see their parent lying down having a strop back at them.

A willingness to laugh at oneself helps, as does ensuring that one only choses to fight important* battles of wills and where one has to win. Also if one can't control one's own temper, one will have no success with anyone else.

There were a few meals that either I or my wife missed because of taking the screaming toddler away from everyone else, but it was a short-term hit for a long term gain.



*For example, I know parents who got really worked-up about their kids' clothes, which turned dressing into a battle - we told them if their clothing choice was a bad idea and suggested something better, but as long as it wasn't going to do any more than make them temporarily uncomfortable, let them get on with it.
 
One big change to the way things used to be is a common understanding that kids (especially toddlers) just have meltdowns sometimes. Being tired or hungry or frustrated, recognizing that, fighting it down and acting like a normal human being is an adult skill that kids have to learn themselves (and frankly, not every adult has). Parents shouldn't punish meltdowns, only take the kid away from the situation and let them cry it out and calm down and they'll be okay again.

What parents should punish is wilful disobedience, which the kid already knows is worthy of punishment by virtue of doing it, and in that regard there's many more creative punishments to mete out than spanking.

My favorite: for a particularly grievous sin, have the kid go to their toy box and pick out a toy to give to charity. THEY have to do it, and they have to tell you why they have to do it, so they know you know they understand.

Kids get plenty of toys these days, and the toy they'll eventually settle on will be one they haven't played with in months, so it's not like you're depriving them. But kids are also greedy little bastards and the psychological horror of giving up something that is their thing will be a greater deterrent than any temporary pain could be. Seriously, if you've got young kids you have to try it, they act like you're telling them to shoot Old Yeller and they'll do anything to not have to do it twice.
 
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I'm not going to argue in favor of spanking. These is no real need of it.

But, at least where I am, spanking has been out of favor for at least 20 or so years... and it's not like I'm noticing this huge spike in great kids.

I came from a family of 5 kids... Everyone one of us except maybe the 2 youngest were spanked. It's hardly something I remember. Expect one time when dad spanked me because I smacked him in the face (I was around 5)... he deserved it.
 
My favorite: for a particularly grievous sin, have the kid go to their toy box and pick out a toy to give to charity. THEY have to do it, and they have to tell you why they have to do it, so they know you know they understand.

Kids get plenty of toys these days, and the toy they'll eventually settle on will be one they haven't played with in months, so it's not like you're depriving them. But kids are also greedy little bastards and the psychological horror of giving up something that is their thing will be a greater deterrent than any temporary pain could be. Seriously, if you've got young kids you have to try it, they act like you're telling them to shoot Old Yeller and they'll do anything to not have to do it twice.


I'm going to try that. Wow. I could just imagine my boy, all of a sudden the toy would be about the most important thing ever.
 
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My favorite: for a particularly grievous sin, have the kid go to their toy box and pick out a toy to give to charity. THEY have to do it, and they have to tell you why they have to do it, so they know you know they understand.

I like it. I think I might tweak it and pass on the 'to charity' part (even if that's what I do with it), just because making charities a villain might come back in weird ways later.
 
One big change to the way things used to be is a common understanding that kids (especially toddlers) just have meltdowns sometimes. Being tired or hungry or frustrated, recognizing that, fighting it down and acting like a normal human being is an adult skill that kids have to learn themselves (and frankly, not every adult has). Parents shouldn't punish meltdowns, only take the kid away from the situation and let them cry it out and calm down and they'll be okay again.

What parents should punish is wilful disobedience, which the kid already knows is worthy of punishment by virtue of doing it, and in that regard there's many more creative punishments to mete out than spanking.

My favorite: for a particularly grievous sin, have the kid go to their toy box and pick out a toy to give to charity. THEY have to do it, and they have to tell you why they have to do it, so they know you know they understand.

Kids get plenty of toys these days, and the toy they'll eventually settle on will be one they haven't played with in months, so it's not like you're depriving them. But kids are also greedy little bastards and the psychological horror of giving up something that is their thing will be a greater deterrent than any temporary pain could be. Seriously, if you've got young kids you have to try it, they act like you're telling them to shoot Old Yeller and they'll do anything to not have to do it twice.

At the risk of turning this into a child-rearing thread, I will disagree with you on a few points.

First, avoiding meltdowns is not an "adult skill" nor is it something that people learn for themselves. It's a skill that can be taught, and like with anything related to brain/emotional development, age will play a factor. Our job as parents is to teach those skills.

My approach was to decouple emotions from behavior. I explained to my kids that it's ok to feel what they are feeling, but it's not ok to behave that way. If they are having problems behaving, then they need to separate themselves from the group because it's not fair to other people to deal with their behavior. Obviously (I hope) this is not a one-time thing but an ongoing approach.

I wouldn't necessarily "punish" a child for a meltdown, but there should certainly be consequences for their actions. I remember taking one of our kids home from a school event because of a meltdown. Removing him temporarily and then allowing him to still enjoy the event as if nothing happened is why, in my opinion, some adults never seem to learn. It's not "punishment" to say that people who throw tantrums that disturb others don't get to hang out with other people.

This was reinforced later when the child wanted to do things. We discussed if he could be trusted to not have a meltdown. We also discussed why he had the meltdown. Was he tired? Hungry? Kids aren't stupid. Given some guidance they can figure these things out and learn to deal with it. As parents we need to anticipate these things at when seeing pre-meltdown clues ask, "Are you hungry? No? You sure? You're not going to melt down are you? Because if so, we should just leave now."

Your taking away a toy thing is an interesting punishment. I don't like it because it creates an association with charity that I don't think is at all appropriate: "When I do something bad, I have to give something to people less fortunate than me. If I am good, I get to keep things." It also objectifies the less fortunate in that it makes them out to be tools for discipline and kind of ruins future discussions about why it's good to give to charity.

I've always tried to tailor the "punishment" to what the child did. I eventually came to learn that this approach is called natural consequences. It takes a bit of thought sometimes, but overall I have found the approach to work quite well. If you're ever at a loss, ask the kid what he thinks the consequences should be. The answer can be quite enlightening.
 
One big change to the way things used to be is a common understanding that kids (especially toddlers) just have meltdowns sometimes. Being tired or hungry or frustrated, recognizing that, fighting it down and acting like a normal human being is an adult skill that kids have to learn themselves (and frankly, not every adult has). Parents shouldn't punish meltdowns, only take the kid away from the situation and let them cry it out and calm down and they'll be okay again.

I agree...kids sometime "meltdown" and the best you can do is support them when it happens. However, to try to "Discipline" a child during a "meltdown" is just crazy, for they are too upset for the lesson to take. Also, I agree that you should never "Punish a child" during a meltdown or after a 'meltdown" - for that is just inflicting pain without a lesson involved as to "How to do it right" .

What the hell...Kids sometimes "meltdown"....and that's why they need us to be patient. Seriously...I believe "Growing up" is harder than we care to remember.
 
I'm not going to argue in favor of spanking. These is no real need of it.

But, at least where I am, spanking has been out of favor for at least 20 or so years... and it's not like I'm noticing this huge spike in great kids.

I came from a family of 5 kids... Everyone one of us except maybe the 2 youngest were spanked. It's hardly something I remember. Expect one time when dad spanked me because I smacked him in the face (I was around 5)... he deserved it.

People opposed to spanking don't claim that there will be a huge spike in great kids if the practice is stopped.

Instead, the burden is on proponents of spanking to show it is necessary.
 
This is probably a stupid question but where I grew up a smack was just one hit to the old bum with the hand

A spanking is multiple smacks if you know what I mean

Is it the same there?

Having said that I got the bottom half of a pool cue
 
This is probably a stupid question but where I grew up a smack was just one hit to the old bum with the hand

A spanking is multiple smacks if you know what I mean

Is it the same there?

Having said that I got the bottom half of a pool cue

By smack I generally mean a smack to the face unless otherwise specified (a smack on the ass). By spanking I always mean on the ass and multiple. If I mean single, I would say a spank. If a device was used such as a switch (branch from a tree) or wooden spoon with holes drilled in it, I would mention that. Otherwise, it would be by hand.

I grew up on the east coast of the USA. Usage probably differs around the country, but my usage is the only correct one. Worldwide.

P.S. The real reason I am against spanking is that it makes me realize that the audio isn't properly synched on the free porn websites I visit.
 
This is probably a stupid question but where I grew up a smack was just one hit to the old bum with the hand

A spanking is multiple smacks if you know what I mean

Is it the same there?

Having said that I got the bottom half of a pool cue

Same here in Texas as far as "Spanking" and Smacking".

And...no pool cues allowed here.
 
In which case. I support smacking on necssary occasions but not spanking

Agree. I support as little as needed, too. I mean, once you start going to that tool too often, you ruin it - bit a lot of parents just don't understand that.

In the words of a stupid Redneck, "Hey...I was always strict with that boy and I whup him when he need it...so I don't know why he growed' up bad". And all I got to say is, "Of course you don't understand, you mindless Cracker".
 
This is probably a stupid question but where I grew up a smack was just one hit to the old bum with the hand

A spanking is multiple smacks if you know what I mean

Is it the same there?

Having said that I got the bottom half of a pool cue


If you said a smack, I might think a bop on the head or a swat on the bottom with a hand. Something to get their attention, to make them notice you, like that.

A spanking is when you hit them on the bottom repeatedly in the attempt to make that interaction painful.
 
If you said a smack, I might think a bop on the head or a swat on the bottom with a hand. Something to get their attention, to make them notice you, like that.

A spanking is when you hit them on the bottom repeatedly in the attempt to make that interaction painful.
Yeah.

Don't get that. A decent one surprise smack beats spanking to me.

Different styles and that I suppose
 
These conversations always remind me of the Blackadder episode where he switches places when Nelson wants to kill him.

Quite slap slap stick but funny

 
Should point out for Americans and Canadians.

The Prince pretending to be the butler is Hugh Laurie from House
 
I'm not sure why you would say that. Are 3 year olds particularly heavy in a way that a non-parent can't understand?

My experience with my young children is that they are particularly agile and stubborn in a way I did not expect, particularly with respect to going places they are not supposed to go. Thus the idea that it's trivial to scoop up a toddler to keep him away from a dangerous place seems to be a fantasy of non-parents.

I take it my assessment is correct? You're not raising your own kids?
 

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