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Spanking children doesn't work.

Are you really suggesting that teachers in disadvantaged schools have to beat their kids to get any sort of discipline?

I'm not even a teacher and I find that offensive. If you really need help with your classroom management so that you can stop hitting the kids in your charge seek out a Love and Logic training course or some other proven system.

As an aside this was interesting in that - I don't know if you can hear it outside the UK.

Six-minute clip

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03pdytm

How to turn your life around

What does it take to succeed if you are born into poverty and neglect? Two people who have done just that explore whether it was down to personality, circumstances or plain luck. Why do so few people manage it?

First broadcast on How to Turn Your Life Around, 29 March 2016.

Full programme:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b074xbs4
What does it take to succeed if you are born into poverty and neglect? Two people who have done just that explore whether it was down to personality, circumstances or plain luck. Why do so few people manage it?

Byron Vincent, a writer and poet, and Dr Anna Woodhouse, a university lecturer and outreach worker, talk to experts to try and discover if their own triumph over lives that were blighted by abuse, drug addiction, homelessness and hunger could have been predicted. They talk to experts about the sort of traits an individual needs to overcome adversity, things like resilience, grit and will power, and discover the latest thinking on what really helps. They explore the way science is looking at the role of genes in determining character. And they look at the importance of outside forces; education, family support, mentors and the role of the Government. At the end, they discuss what they have found with former Welfare Minister and current Chair of the Work and Pensions Select Committee Frank Field, to see what government can do to help lift individuals out of poverty and get them to turn their lives around.

Producer: Jenny Sneesby.
The main program visits an inner-city school with an intake that includes gang members, and yet which gets very good academic results.
 
What did the spanking achieve? If he was 3 you could easily restrain him from the bull by simply picking him up. In fact that would be easier than spanking. All the spanking did was confuse the kid as to why Uncle Jules was hitting him.

Hitting is wrong, Uncle Jules just hit me. Why isn't Uncle Jules being punished? What the **** just happened to our carefully constructed system of rules? Can I hit Uncle Jules back? Can I hit my sister when I'm older like Uncle Jules? Do I have to wear tacky clothes like Uncle Jules to hit people?

Picking the child up creates far less confusion, safely removes them form the danger, and makes the subsequent explanation easier. You don't have to wait as long for them to settle down and the immediacy of the explanation has some meaning.

Yes - I recall having to watch that they didn't crawl into the fire, or investigate electrical sockets. We only chose to have battles of wills where we thought it important, and then made sure that we won them because they *were* important (like not sticking your fingers in an electric socket) . As a result, we seemed to have far less hassle than many parents we knew, especially as we had very few battles over what to wear. We'd tell them that something might be a bad idea, and let them find out for themselves if they insisted.

I find the highlighted statements in conflict with each other.

One doesn't need to hit a dog to train it regardless of its age. It can work as a deterrence to certain behaviors, but it also teaches other things. Specifically, violence as a training tool teaches the recipient that violence is a tool to be used to get people to behave as we want them to.

I'm no pacifist. There are certainly times when violence is right course of action, which is typically when more or worse violence can be averted.

I haven't needed to strike my kids, not even the euphemistic slap on the diapered butt. As a parent or guardian of an infant/toddler, we have an obligation to keep them from harm. If that means picking them up or otherwise physically moving them, a tactic we wouldn't use on an adult, then so be it. Once they get older, physical restraint becomes a much more extreme measure. I wouldn't do anything physical that I wouldn't be comfortable with another adult doing in the same situation to my own kid.

Fear of physical punishment at best teaches someone to avoid doing something for fear of physical punishment. It doesn't teach them right from wrong. It doesn't teach empathy. A parent may also attempt to teach those lessons alongside of the physical punishment, but it's not inherent to the aversion technique.

More importantly, it's typically in conflict to the lesson being taught. Take a kid who is speaking disrespectfully to a parent. A slap in the face doesn't teach the kid anything about respect. It doesn't teach them how to address people in the proper tone. It tells the kid that parents can treat them like chattel. It teaches them that if they have power over someone, physical violence is a proper response to verbal aggression.

If the kid doesn't mouth off again, the parent assumes a lesson was learned. It wasn't. The kid is keeping his mouth shut because he doesn't want to get hit, not because he respects you. There's a big difference. If you haven't made the kid too fearful, just watch how that kid shows respect to other people.

Like most people on FB, I have a number who put out the typical memes about how spanking teaches respect and so forth. What's interesting is that a number of them, especially one very vocal one, are like little FB dictators when it comes to their walls. People who disagree with them, even in the most polite terms, get blocked followed by some public shaming.

Is that respect? No. They are behaving as they have been taught, which is "this is my house, and what I say goes or <smack> you're gonna get it."

I wonder how many of the verbally abusive trolls (the ones using vile language and hateful comments like how someone should be raped) were the ones raised with spanking and other physical violence. I would bet most are, because when faced with little chance for consequences, they behave horribly. I find it hard to imagine those whose parents used other techniques to teach them respect and empathy are posting rape threats.

On the other side of this coin the "slap in the face" technique doesn't teach kids how to stand up to themselves. I want and expect my kids to show me some disrespect from time to time, especially as they get older. It's only natural to rebel and to disagree with authority. My job is to teach them how to do it properly, which includes when to do it and the manner in which it is done.

If a child grows up fearful of showing any disrespect or otherwise challenging their parents, it will make it harder for them in many aspects of their lives. A couple of good smacks to the face as they are coming into their own can be enough to turn them into people who avoid conflict, like asking for a raise or telling a boss (better still, a boyfriend) "no" respectfully but forcefully.

Agree with all of that - especially the respectful disagreement part. The teachers that my kids respect are the ones with whom they can reason if they disagree with something. The eldest two (15 and 17) help out at cubs and brownies and often have to ensure the 8-10yr olds "play nicely" and behave. They don't have any more problem than the adults in that situation.
 
And I keep coming back to the idea that I had earlier.

It was very common in the not very distant past. Did our ancestors (i.e. parents and grandparents) live horrible lives? Now that spanking as punishment is frowned upon, are we much better off as people? I'm willing to listen to an argument that we are, but it doesn't seem self evident.

When it comes to frequent, severe, beatings, it seems like the studies have shown some pretty negative outcomes for that, but most of our parents and grandparents didn't receive frequent, severe, beatings. On the other hand, most of them did receive not just an occasional smack, but an occasional real, spanking, as in "come over here and I will make you cry" sort of spanking. Even that, which today seems unthinkable and out of favor, did not seem to produce horrific consequences.
 
Possibly because those of us who'd agree that spanking as you define it is not a good thing, have been lectured in previous threads that our occasional use of, as you put it, a 'mild, open handed swat' is the same thing.

I bet you can't find two instances.
 
And I keep coming back to the idea that I had earlier.

It was very common in the not very distant past. Did our ancestors (i.e. parents and grandparents) live horrible lives? Now that spanking as punishment is frowned upon, are we much better off as people? I'm willing to listen to an argument that we are, but it doesn't seem self evident.

When it comes to frequent, severe, beatings, it seems like the studies have shown some pretty negative outcomes for that, but most of our parents and grandparents didn't receive frequent, severe, beatings. On the other hand, most of them did receive not just an occasional smack, but an occasional real, spanking, as in "come over here and I will make you cry" sort of spanking. Even that, which today seems unthinkable and out of favor, did not seem to produce horrific consequences.

Our ancestors had some pretty horrible views on how to treat each other. I'm not saying spanking was the cause of those, but those,"women aren't real people, kill the natives and take their land, enslave the blacks, send the kids to work in the mines" generations are not a good thing to point to when trying to show the timeless applicability of how we should treat each other.
 
Originally Posted by Wolrab
Does anyone remember the thread on scientific studies and how a huge percentage were non-reproducible, especially social psychology? I find it convenient the researchers here managed to find so many studies for their meta-analysis that were so thoroughly vetted. I would venture a vast majority of psychologist already believe spanking is wrong and their studies just so happen to agree with the results.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/...riment-results

snip...


Sigh. There's a section for conspiracy theories.
Conspiracy theory? No just plain old confirmation bias and the very nature of social psychology papers as presented in the article, along with how the press presents findings.

I know beating children is wrong. I also know not disciplining children is wrong. A happy medium is the occasional swat on the behind for doing something dangerous and life threatening among many other methods.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...t=reproducible
 
Our ancestors had some pretty horrible views on how to treat each other. I'm not saying spanking was the cause of those, but those,"women aren't real people, kill the natives and take their land, enslave the blacks, send the kids to work in the mines" generations are not a good thing to point to when trying to show the timeless applicability of how we should treat each other.

In general, looking at the big picture (two or three centuries) it seems we're growing less tolerant of casual violence. Flogging used to be normal discipline in the army and navy. Whipping was offered for minor criminal offenses, and of course continued more commonly for black criminals. A whipping post used to be as common in a county seat as a jail. Whipping was standard for slaves on plantations, and schoolboys were whipped with a birch rod.

Cause and effect or not, there were sports like bear baiting, dog fighting or cock fighting that incorporated casual violence. Horses and mules were whipped to make them go faster or pull more on public streets.

All that faded, and anarchy has not been let loose in the same cultures, so it seems natural that spanking would fade from hitting with a belt, birch or paddle, to swatting with the bare hand, to nothing.
 
And I keep coming back to the idea that I had earlier.

It was very common in the not very distant past. Did our ancestors (i.e. parents and grandparents) live horrible lives? Now that spanking as punishment is frowned upon, are we much better off as people? I'm willing to listen to an argument that we are, but it doesn't seem self evident.

I don't think anybody is arguing that a society with corporal punishment will have a bunch of people living "horrible" lives.

I would like to think that less violence in society is a good thing in and of itself. The reality is that we will never have a completely non-violent society, so violence at times will be necessary and even a Very Good Thing in order to deal with that reality. But overall, I would prefer a world with less violence (I'm not talking about American football, boxing, MMA stuff).

So think of it this way: If our grandparents and parents could have had the very same outcomes in life that you (in theory) would consider to grade their lives as "horrible" or "better off" without the infliction of pain on children, would you consider that a Good Thing, Bad Thing or a Wash?

Suppose you have the choice of two private schools for your kid. Both will give your kid the same measurables (whatever you choose them to be). One school doesn't use any violence. The other school routinely inflicts pain on your kid. Which school do you choose?
 
All that faded, and anarchy has not been let loose in the same cultures....

Some people might suggest that you are only partially correct, at least with respect to modern America.

Things are definitely different today in modern America compared to my youth. They don't seem a lot worse, but they do seem a lot less controlled. The jury is still out about whether or not, overall, the situation is better or worse.
 
So think of it this way: If our grandparents and parents could have had the very same outcomes in life that you (in theory) would consider to grade their lives as "horrible" or "better off" without the infliction of pain on children, would you consider that a Good Thing, Bad Thing or a Wash?

I'm not sure if I understand the question. If the infliction of pain on children has no effect, i.e. if they had the very same "outcomes in life", with or without the pain, then I would vote for no pain.

The question seems to me, though, to have an unsupportable premise. The point is that the outcomes in life will not be the same. Will there be benefits from one form of discipline versus another, from more discipline or less discipline? I think it has to make some sort of difference. So, if inflicting pain creates a positive outcome, I think the negative value of the pain would be a small price to pay.

I hasten to add that I am not sure whether corporal punishment aids in creating either a positive or negative outcome, but I am saying it is not self evident that there are no benefits. Moreover, the scientific studies cited in support of removing the corporal punishment seem to have flaws.

The connection to the past, where corporal punishment was common and, by modern standards, severe, is that they seem to have gotten along ok despite its prevalence. On the other hand, we don't seem to have collapsed as a society since it became frowned upon, although some might disagree.




Suppose you have the choice of two private schools for your kid. Both will give your kid the same measurables (whatever you choose them to be). One school doesn't use any violence. The other school routinely inflicts pain on your kid. Which school do you choose?

Again, your question seems to contain the same unsupported premise. If they have the same outcomes, which would I choose? The painless one. However, would they have the same outcome? Unfortunately, it is very difficult to conduct the experiment, because it is impossible to change only that one variable at a time.
 
Some people might suggest that you are only partially correct, at least with respect to modern America.

Things are definitely different today in modern America compared to my youth. They don't seem a lot worse, but they do seem a lot less controlled. The jury is still out about whether or not, overall, the situation is better or worse.

The problem is that my first thought is to the period I study. If we're not killing each other by the thousands, while millions are in chains trying to escape, then it's all good. Next I think of when I was a child, and we lived in fear of the uncertainty of hippies, motorcycle gangs and protesters, and the worry of drugs and promiscuity being taught to youth. Doesn't seem to have changed much, though it's nicer being an adult with better understanding and context.
 
I'm not sure if I understand the question. If the infliction of pain on children has no effect, i.e. if they had the very same "outcomes in life", with or without the pain, then I would vote for no pain.

The question seems to me, though, to have an unsupportable premise. The point is that the outcomes in life will not be the same. Will there be benefits from one form of discipline versus another, from more discipline or less discipline? I think it has to make some sort of difference. So, if inflicting pain creates a positive outcome, I think the negative value of the pain would be a small price to pay.

I hasten to add that I am not sure whether corporal punishment aids in creating either a positive or negative outcome, but I am saying it is not self evident that there are no benefits. Moreover, the scientific studies cited in support of removing the corporal punishment seem to have flaws.

The connection to the past, where corporal punishment was common and, by modern standards, severe, is that they seem to have gotten along ok despite its prevalence. On the other hand, we don't seem to have collapsed as a society since it became frowned upon, although some might disagree.


Again, your question seems to contain the same unsupported premise. If they have the same outcomes, which would I choose? The painless one. However, would they have the same outcome? Unfortunately, it is very difficult to conduct the experiment, because it is impossible to change only that one variable at a time.

I'm not claiming we can change one variable and keep everything else the same. It's just not possible.

However, what this thought experiment shows is that you perceive there to be an inherent cost to using pain, violence, corporal punishment or whatever we choose to call it. I perceive the same thing.

In other words "spanking" starts off in the hole. As we evaluate various techniques for child rearing for effectiveness, the inherent negative aspect can't simply be ignored. In order for it to be preferred over another method, it must not only be superior in outcomes but that superiority must outweigh the inherent negative of using violence.

We often hear people claim that N generations used spanking, and they turned out "fine" (ridiculously unscientific but whatever). One response to that is that lots of families during those times didn't use spanking, and they turned out "fine" as well.

If all our research leads us to conclude that we cannot after the fact determine with any reliability who got spanked and who didn't, that's sufficient to do away with spanking altogether simply because we recognize that the violence in and of itself is not a good thing.
 
I'm not claiming we can change one variable and keep everything else the same. It's just not possible.

However, what this thought experiment shows is that you perceive there to be an inherent cost to using pain, violence, corporal punishment or whatever we choose to call it. I perceive the same thing.

In other words "spanking" starts off in the hole. As we evaluate various techniques for child rearing for effectiveness, the inherent negative aspect can't simply be ignored. In order for it to be preferred over another method, it must not only be superior in outcomes but that superiority must outweigh the inherent negative of using violence.

Yes. I see what you are saying now.


If all our research leads us to conclude that we cannot after the fact determine with any reliability who got spanked and who didn't, that's sufficient to do away with spanking altogether simply because we recognize that the violence in and of itself is not a good thing.

I agree with the general thought behind this. Depending on exactly what you mean, I might disagree. I think that you meant that we could not determine, with any reliability, whether spanking had any effect, positive or negative. It might be possible to make a determination for a population of people without being able to make it for a given individual.

I'm skeptical, though, that we have sufficient research available to make such a conclusion. In the absence of sufficient evidence to make such a conclusion, I would defer to parents' judgment.

For what it's worth, I'm absolutely and utterly opposed to it in any setting other than home, just because of the sexual aspects.
 
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I take your point. Maybe spanking proponents would also be OK with occasional mild shocks? Maybe a taser specially designed for kids could deliver the needed pain necessary for behavioral modification?

Maybe only time out (shunning) proponents would also be OK with driving their 100km away and dumping them on the side of the road for 24 hrs
 
I agree with the general thought behind this. Depending on exactly what you mean, I might disagree. I think that you meant that we could not determine, with any reliability, whether spanking had any effect, positive or negative. It might be possible to make a determination for a population of people without being able to make it for a given individual.

I'm skeptical, though, that we have sufficient research available to make such a conclusion. In the absence of sufficient evidence to make such a conclusion, I would defer to parents' judgment.

I think that the lack of evidence for the efficacy of spanking suggests that spanking should not be used.

For what it's worth, I'm absolutely and utterly opposed to it in any setting other than home, just because of the sexual aspects.

But this seems to fly in the face of another justification that I think you made which is essentially, "It never done me no harm."

And if we were worry about the "sexual aspects" of spanking, then why is it any safer inside of the home than out?
 
Because I had tried that 3 Jillion times before! Also, had some things to do and couldn't carry him every where at all times.

Well, if you can't be bothered to discipline the child because you have other things to do, then shortcuts come in handy. Not really an example of it being effective, though.

Listen...if you are trying to make it sound like I have only one tool in the tool box (i.e., spanking) and I am somehow overanxious to use it, or too thoughtless not to consider something else, then you are dead damned wrong.

I'm not the one dropping anecdotes that don't make me look all that good.

In fact, to me it is you who seems to be kind of thoughtless insofar as you seem to have a knee-jerk reaction that Spanking is wrong - or assume it is wrong at all times without carefully considering the context. I mean it seems to me that you want one of those simple "One answer fits all" sort of paradigms - much like the people who over-spank their kids (because they figure if a little is good...then a lot is better, huh?) And you seem to figure that if Spanking can be applied badly, then no spanking at all is best.

Spanking is a bit like yelling at a kid: it is a sign the adult is no longer in control. It is a shortcut, a tool that shouldn't be needed. Show me a professional who deals with kids every day who uses spanking or yelling and I'll show you a professional looking for another profession.

Seriously, you seem to have the same mentality of a habitual spanker - just reversed.

Quite the opposite. I don't think there is one sure fire way to work with every kid. All I know is that it is worth looking for a system that works for you and a system that works for the kids you are dealing with. Child discipline is too important to rest on old habits and "good enough for my parents".

We know we can do better, so why not. We worry about buying the best car to meet our needs, about picking the best place to live, about making sure our kid gets the best teacher, about making sure they drink the best juice, but nobody wants to take the time to learn how to discipline their kids.

But...I don't read minds, so I can't know for sure. Perhaps you could explain?

No problem.
 
I'm not claiming we can change one variable and keep everything else the same. It's just not possible.

However, what this thought experiment shows is that you perceive there to be an inherent cost to using pain, violence, corporal punishment or whatever we choose to call it. I perceive the same thing.

In other words "spanking" starts off in the hole. As we evaluate various techniques for child rearing for effectiveness, the inherent negative aspect can't simply be ignored. In order for it to be preferred over another method, it must not only be superior in outcomes but that superiority must outweigh the inherent negative of using violence.

We often hear people claim that N generations used spanking, and they turned out "fine" (ridiculously unscientific but whatever). One response to that is that lots of families during those times didn't use spanking, and they turned out "fine" as well.

If all our research leads us to conclude that we cannot after the fact determine with any reliability who got spanked and who didn't, that's sufficient to do away with spanking altogether simply because we recognize that the violence in and of itself is not a good thing.

Thank you for your very well written posts in this thread. You seem to have a better time conveying my thoughts than I do on this topic. Much appreciated.
 

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