Childlike Empress
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#spanishrevolution
- Thread starter Childlike Empress
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What evidence do you have for this claim ?
Spain is currently number 30 in the Corruption Perceptions Index, the United States by comparison is joint 22nd, the UK is 20th so it's not squeaky clean but then again it's not so bad either
The way it's portrayed in the UK, the recent issues in the Spanish economy are due in the main to a debt-fuelled property bubble. The construction industry has fallen off a cliff and then there has been the knock on effects to the service and other industries (including a weakness in the banking industry for regional banks).
Fair enough, but do you have any evidence that Spain's primary problem is corruption as opposed to the collapse of a property bubble ?
Also MJ is usually listed at 6' 6"
Eddie Dane
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Eddie Dane
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I can understand their anger, but protesting is going to achieve about as much good as a Rage Against The Machine concert.
A lot of righteous indignation, loud noise and littering.
Protests have historically had little impact on the real estate market and government debt.
A lot of righteous indignation, loud noise and littering.
Protests have historically had little impact on the real estate market and government debt.
WildCat
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Why Is Spain So Corrupt
How corruption, cuts and despair drove Spain's protesters on to the streets
Spain's biggest ever corruption trial gets under way
Corruption in Spain and The New Politics
Etc etc.
Perception and reality are often 2 wildly different things. When corruption is the norm it's not even perceived as corruption, it's just seen as the way things are. As Harriet Tubman once said "I freed a thousand slaves, I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."
WildCat
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They can never do as well as they could without corruption. Just as an Olympic swimmer can do well with 10 kg weight on his back, he can do much better without it.
stokes234
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You can't really quantify the effect of protests. Take the miners strike in britain in the 80s - the strikers lost, but had they and others not protested at all and just given in to every government demand, who knows how much further the government would have gone? Perhaps things would have been exactly the same, or perhaps with no protest the government would have dismantled the entire welfare state.
As the saying goes, "they can do whatever you can't stop them doing." This protest won't directly stop corruption, but it might go a way towards showing that the public will look kindly upon politicians who appear to be doing something about it.
DC
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how do you suggest they tell their government what they want?
Eddie Dane
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Morwen
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It's a bit more complicated than that. Many of the protesters are not happy with the electoral system and think that just voting every four years in a system which favors heavily a few big parties in detriment of smaller ones is unfair. One of the things they want is to change Spain's strange and mind-boggling mixture of electoral laws.
Just this morning, #acampadabcn, the gathering in Plaça Catalunya, in Barcelona, was told to go away since they wanted to clean up the square. See, there's this big soccer match, the Barça is playing, and if it wins there'll be celebrations and they may turn rowdy, so normally in these cases the squares and streets are cleaned so that there are no bottles or heavy objects that may cause harm in case of disturbances. So this morning the Mossos d'Escuadra (the Catalan police force) asked the people at #acampadabcn to clear out. Which they didn't. It turned a bit confusing, with some of the people in the square blocking the path of the cleaning trucks, and then the police charged them. There's maybe a hundred people lightly wounded and a LOT of indignation right now. #acampadabcn is Trending Topic in Twitter.
To be frank, up until yesterday the protests seemed to be dying out. There were "spirituality" commissions in Madrid, biodances, reiki, and other assorted, well-meaning, wool-gathering woo taking place. But today the anger has sparked out again. Twitter and other social networks are afire, all of them insisting to keep the protests peaceful. From what I've seen, that's what's happening. Even in BCN, the wounds were from the police's batons and some rubber balls. The people sat in the square, raised their hands, and simply refused to move. So the police charged. The next few hours will be interesting.It's a bit more complicated than that. Many of the protesters are not happy with the electoral system and think that just voting every four years in a system which favors heavily a few big parties in detriment of smaller ones is unfair. One of the things they want is to change Spain's strange and mind-boggling mixture of electoral laws.
Just this morning, #acampadabcn, the concentration in Plaça Catalunya, in Barcelona, was told to go away since they wanted to clean up the square. See, there's this big soccer match, the Barça is playing, and if it wins there'll be celebrations and they may turn rowdy, so normally in these cases the squares are cleaned so that there are no bottles or heavy objects that may cause disturbances. So this morning the Mossos d'Escuadra (the Catalan police force) asked the people at #acampadabcn to clear out. Which they didn't. It turned a bit confusing, with some of the people in the square blocking the path of the cleaning trucks, and then the police charged them. There's a few dozen wounded and a LOT of indignation right now. #acampadabcn is Trending Topic in Twitter.
To be frank, up until yesterday the protests seemed to have mellowed out. There were "spirituality" commissions in Madrid, and other assorted, well-meaning, wool-gathering woo. But today the anger has sparked out again. Twitter and other social networks are afire, all of them insisting to keep the protests peaceful. From what I've seen, that's what's happening. Even in BCN, the wounds were caused by police's batons and rubber balls. The people sat in the square, raised their hands, and simply refused to move. So the police charged.
The next few hours will be interesting.
Just this morning, #acampadabcn, the gathering in Plaça Catalunya, in Barcelona, was told to go away since they wanted to clean up the square. See, there's this big soccer match, the Barça is playing, and if it wins there'll be celebrations and they may turn rowdy, so normally in these cases the squares and streets are cleaned so that there are no bottles or heavy objects that may cause harm in case of disturbances. So this morning the Mossos d'Escuadra (the Catalan police force) asked the people at #acampadabcn to clear out. Which they didn't. It turned a bit confusing, with some of the people in the square blocking the path of the cleaning trucks, and then the police charged them. There's maybe a hundred people lightly wounded and a LOT of indignation right now. #acampadabcn is Trending Topic in Twitter.
To be frank, up until yesterday the protests seemed to be dying out. There were "spirituality" commissions in Madrid, biodances, reiki, and other assorted, well-meaning, wool-gathering woo taking place. But today the anger has sparked out again. Twitter and other social networks are afire, all of them insisting to keep the protests peaceful. From what I've seen, that's what's happening. Even in BCN, the wounds were from the police's batons and some rubber balls. The people sat in the square, raised their hands, and simply refused to move. So the police charged. The next few hours will be interesting.It's a bit more complicated than that. Many of the protesters are not happy with the electoral system and think that just voting every four years in a system which favors heavily a few big parties in detriment of smaller ones is unfair. One of the things they want is to change Spain's strange and mind-boggling mixture of electoral laws.
Just this morning, #acampadabcn, the concentration in Plaça Catalunya, in Barcelona, was told to go away since they wanted to clean up the square. See, there's this big soccer match, the Barça is playing, and if it wins there'll be celebrations and they may turn rowdy, so normally in these cases the squares are cleaned so that there are no bottles or heavy objects that may cause disturbances. So this morning the Mossos d'Escuadra (the Catalan police force) asked the people at #acampadabcn to clear out. Which they didn't. It turned a bit confusing, with some of the people in the square blocking the path of the cleaning trucks, and then the police charged them. There's a few dozen wounded and a LOT of indignation right now. #acampadabcn is Trending Topic in Twitter.
To be frank, up until yesterday the protests seemed to have mellowed out. There were "spirituality" commissions in Madrid, and other assorted, well-meaning, wool-gathering woo. But today the anger has sparked out again. Twitter and other social networks are afire, all of them insisting to keep the protests peaceful. From what I've seen, that's what's happening. Even in BCN, the wounds were caused by police's batons and rubber balls. The people sat in the square, raised their hands, and simply refused to move. So the police charged.
The next few hours will be interesting.
DC
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and because that didn't bring the desired changes in the past, they went on the streets.
Eddie Dane
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OK, thanks.
In stereo, no less.
The protests seemed to lack direction to me.
I was unaware of the demands for electoral reform.
Thank you for the articles. From the first one:
There is no doubt that the protesters think that corruption is at heart of the problem, but it wasn't such an issue when the property boom was in progress. Even if the corruption is eliminated, or reduced to manageable proportions, the Spanish economy is left with a stagnant construction industry and eye watering levels of debt.
Eta....
But I stand corrected.
Last edited:
Morwen
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The protests do lack direction. They've tried to put in writing what they want, and this produced a long, rambling, mostly unfeasible list full of things from the restoration of the Republic to the compulsory re-establishment of the €400 monthly aid for long-term unemployed people.
Lately they've realized this and they went back to a minimum requirements list, which is:
- Electoral reform to allow smaller parties to achieve representation in Congress.
- Measures against corruption favoring political transparency, esp. regarding where the money goes.
- Effective separation of legislative, judiciary and executive powers.
- Citizen-driven measures of control as a way to demand political accountability.
The finer points of how to do this are still being debated, and they're asking for everybody to participate and give ideas, encouraging citizens to gather together by neighbourhoods and areas, to make this a regular thing, and to come up with more ideas to send their way.
Yeah, I still see it as something quite idealistic, utopic, unfocused, you name it, and it won't probably change the world much -- reality will reassert itself, hard, sooner or later -- but encouraging this kind of discussion is good no matter what. Many foolish things will be said, no doubt, but it's refreshing to see the normally apathetic Spaniards so fired up about something other than soccer.
Lately they've realized this and they went back to a minimum requirements list, which is:
- Electoral reform to allow smaller parties to achieve representation in Congress.
- Measures against corruption favoring political transparency, esp. regarding where the money goes.
- Effective separation of legislative, judiciary and executive powers.
- Citizen-driven measures of control as a way to demand political accountability.
The finer points of how to do this are still being debated, and they're asking for everybody to participate and give ideas, encouraging citizens to gather together by neighbourhoods and areas, to make this a regular thing, and to come up with more ideas to send their way.
Yeah, I still see it as something quite idealistic, utopic, unfocused, you name it, and it won't probably change the world much -- reality will reassert itself, hard, sooner or later -- but encouraging this kind of discussion is good no matter what. Many foolish things will be said, no doubt, but it's refreshing to see the normally apathetic Spaniards so fired up about something other than soccer.
Morwen
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OK, thanks.
In stereo, no less.
The protests seemed to lack direction to me.
I was unaware of the demands for electoral reform.
Sorry! Copy&Paste blunder!
WildCat
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When individuals and corporations are convinced that all the breaks and contracts will go to the politically connected, and the laws written for their benefit, they do not participate in the economy becaause they figure the system is rigged against them. Businesses are not started, existing businesses don't bid for contracts, corruption isn't even reported. The economic damage from corruption is many, many times the cost of the actual corruption.
DC
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companies will then work on better political connection and participate in the economy.