Spain suppressing Catalan Indyref

[Craig B]

I'm a bit surprised at the harshness of Madrid's crackdown on the Catalan referendum due on 1st October. This heavy handed action by Madrid is likely to encourage a Yes vote, asssuming the referendum goes ahead in any form. Police rounding up separatists carrrying guns and bombs is quite in order; but arresting mayors and seizing ballot boxes is unusual behaviour in a democracy.

 

[Belz...]

I'm always torn when it comes to regional independance. On the one hand, groups of people should have the right to determine their own fate... on the other hand, countries need to be able to maintain order and national integrity.

I don't know.

 

[McHrozni]

I'm a bit surprised at the harshness of Madrid's crackdown on the Catalan referendum due on 1st October. This heavy handed action by Madrid is likely to encourage a Yes vote, asssuming the referendum goes ahead in any form. Police rounding up separatists carrrying guns and bombs is quite in order; but arresting mayors and seizing ballot boxes is unusual behaviour in a democracy.

Any democratic country faced with an illegal independence referendum would act in a similar manner. Siezing ballot boxes to be used in an illegal action and arresting mayors pushing an illegal action aren't outrageous or anything.

It is unusual, however, for a democracy to deny the people to have a say of matters they clearly want to have a say. Not that I support the Catalan independence, it's just as misguided populist action as the Brexit referendum was, but forcing the separatist leaders to make a clear and concise case for independence and then failing at referendum would be the proper way to go.

The state held a similar referendum in 2014, in which independence won by a landslide, but participation was in thirties or low forties at worst. In a straight up fair referendum, like the one in Scotland, Yes option would probably lose and the movement would die off for a generation or so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_referendum,_2014#Results

What Catalan authorities are planning is akin to Crimean 'referendum'.

Spain did not stop an earlier vote taking place in November 2014, but this time the Catalan leadership plans a declaration of independence within 48 hours of a Yes vote.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41331152

It's clearly not a movement based on rationality and reason, but on emotions and, perhaps, foreign money.

McHrozni

 

[Craig B]

Silly me. Up to this point I was taking you seriously:

What Catalan authorities are planning is akin to Crimean 'referendum'.

No it's not akin to the Crimean "referendum" in any way.

It's clearly not a movement based on rationality and reason, but on emotions and, perhaps, foreign money.

We may admit the existence of emotions in such a movement, but do you have evidence that it is procured by foreign money?

Anyway, my point is that if a Yes vote would be a bad thing in your opinion, is it sensible for Madrid to indulge in actions which can only strengthen the Yes side?

 

[ddt]

Any democratic country faced with an illegal independence referendum would act in a similar manner. Siezing ballot boxes to be used in an illegal action and arresting mayors pushing an illegal action aren't outrageous or anything.

I'm not sure about that. Is it a criminal matter to hold elections or plebiscites that do not conform to the electoral law (constitutional or otherwise)?

Suppose the Catalan government had, instead, ordered Ipsos Mori to conduct a poll with a sample size of 100%. Would that be illegal?

It is unusual, however, for a democracy to deny the people to have a say of matters they clearly want to have a say. Not that I support the Catalan independence, it's just as misguided populist action as the Brexit referendum was, but forcing the separatist leaders to make a clear and concise case for independence and then failing at referendum would be the proper way to go.

Agreed.

The state held a similar referendum in 2014, in which independence won by a landslide, but participation was in thirties or low forties at worst. In a straight up fair referendum, like the one in Scotland, Yes option would probably lose and the movement would die off for a generation or so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_referendum,_2014#Results

You're probably right in that.

What Catalan authorities are planning is akin to Crimean 'referendum'.

You're not serious about, are you? Spain, and Catalonia has been a democracy with a free press for 40 years now.

It's clearly not a movement based on rationality and reason, but on emotions and, perhaps, foreign money.

The emotions certainly run deep. Ever since the Union of the Crowns in the 1400s, Catalonia has drawn the short stick compared to Castille. Under Franco, it was even forbidden to give your children Catalan first names. When the Saviour, JC, named his son Jordi, that was an act of public defiance (and he could only do so because Jordi was born in Amsterdam, not in Barcelona). Of course, the current government isn't the oppressive Franco regime anymore and gives regions a fair amount of autonomy, but such resentments are not gone in a generation.

Of course, a marked difference with the Scottish referendum would be EU membership. Given Madrid's reaction to the referendum, they would fight tooth and nail to prohibit an independent Catalonia from acceding to the EU.

 

[Childlike Empress]

You're not serious about, are you? Spain, and Catalonia has been a democracy with a free press for 40 years now.

While Ukraine stopped being that weeks before the Crimean referendum.

 

[Craig B]

While Ukraine stopped being that weeks before the Crimean referendum.

Another important difference. Crimea wasn't voting for an independent Crimea. it was voting about being annexed by a country whose troops had recently been sent Into the peninsula for the purpose of securing that annexation.

Yet another difference. Most of the population of the Crimea is Russian speaking, in part because the proportions of other ethnic groups, like Tatars and Pontic Greeks, were reduced by expulsion in Stalin's time.

 

[McHrozni]

I'm not sure about that. Is it a criminal matter to hold elections or plebiscites that do not conform to the electoral law (constitutional or otherwise)?

Suppose the Catalan government had, instead, ordered Ipsos Mori to conduct a poll with a sample size of 100%. Would that be illegal?

If they claimed it had legal validity and take unconstitutional actions based on the results of the poll, then no, it would not be legal.

You're not serious about, are you? Spain, and Catalonia has been a democracy with a free press for 40 years now.

I said akin to as in similar to, not identical to. There are important differences between the two referendums but there are also important similarities. Both referendums were at odds with the constitution of the country and both promise a swift and complete change of status of the territory, without any sort of negotiation, preparations or indeed anything you need to do before independance.

The emotions certainly run deep. Ever since the Union of the Crowns in the 1400s, Catalonia has drawn the short stick compared to Castille. Under Franco, it was even forbidden to give your children Catalan first names. When the Saviour, JC, named his son Jordi, that was an act of public defiance (and he could only do so because Jordi was born in Amsterdam, not in Barcelona). Of course, the current government isn't the oppressive Franco regime anymore and gives regions a fair amount of autonomy, but such resentments are not gone in a generation.

Yup and this referendum is aimed at nurishing those resentments. It's not a serious attempt at independence, there have been no serious proposals or debate of how to go about being independent, the fact the leaders intend to announce independence within 48 hours of a yes vote is indicative of that.

I suspect the usual suspects.

https://twitter.com/XSovietNews/status/909672817347715072

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

Another important difference. Crimea wasn't voting for an independent Crimea. it was voting about being annexed by a country whose troops had recently been sent Into the peninsula for the purpose of securing that annexation.

Sure, there are important differences, but important similarities as well.

If Scotland achieved 80% yes vote in the 2014 referendum, it wouldn't declare independence within 48 hours of the vote. That would come months, maybe even a couple of years later.

McHrozni

 

[Craig B]

Sure, there are important differences, but important similarities as well.

If Scotland achieved 80% yes vote in the 2014 referendum, it wouldn't declare independence within 48 hours of the vote. That would come months, maybe even a couple of years later.

McHrozni

That's the similarity, is it? The difference, by contrast, is a Russian military invasion and de facto annexation.

May I say that I think the differences are greater than the alleged similarities.

 

[McHrozni]

That's the similarity, is it? The difference, by contrast, is a Russian military invasion and de facto annexation.

May I say that I think the differences are greater than the alleged similarities.

Sure and I won't disagree.

However there are far more similarities between what Catalan leaders are attempting and Crimea than there are between what Catalan leaders are attempting and, say, Velvet divorce.

McHrozni

 

[Craig B]

Sure and I won't disagree.

However there are far more similarities between what Catalan leaders are attempting and Crimea than there are between what Catalan leaders are attempting and, say, Velvet divorce.

McHrozni

The differerence may reside in the features which distinguish Czechoslovakia from Spain, or the United Kingdom for that matter. The latter two polities each passed through a period of imperial hegemony shortly after the heartlands, Castile and England, effectively absorbed their immediate neighbours. The memory of this, happily now departed, imperial sway has made these states unwilling to relinquish control over what they perceive as peripheral areas of their own territory. That was seen violently in Ireland, and non-violently in Scotland more recently.

But Czechoslovakia had no such imperial history, and could contemplate territorial adjustments with equanimity.

 

[McHrozni]

The differerence may reside in the features which distinguish Czechoslovakia from Spain, or the United Kingdom for that matter. The latter two polities each passed through a period of imperial hegemony shortly after the heartlands, Castile and England, effectively absorbed their immediate neighbours. The memory of this, happily now departed, imperial sway has made these states unwilling to relinquish control over what they perceive as peripheral areas of their own territory. That was seen violently in Ireland, and non-violently in Scotland more recently.

But Czechoslovakia had no such imperial history, and could contemplate territorial adjustments with equanimity.

Yes, there are good, historic reasons for the difference.

What of it?

McHrozni

 

[Craig B]

Yes, there are good, historic reasons for the difference.

What of it?

McHrozni

The historic reasons for the difference, according to my thesis, are not about what the Catalans are doing, because it's much the same as what several other peoples have been doing in recent decades. The difference is in the character of the state with which they have to deal. So I'm disagreeing with your claims of similarities between Catalan behaviour in Catalonia, and Russian behaviour in Crimea. In fact I can see no real similarity at all.

And if the outcome of the Catalan separatist project turns out differently from the Velvet divorce, I'm saying that's basically because of the historic differences between the Czechoslovak state and Spain, not because of any real difference between Catalans and Slovaks.

So the "good reasons" for the differences invalidate the point you were making about "what Catalan leaders are attempting", in my estimation.

 

[Klimax]

The differerence may reside in the features which distinguish Czechoslovakia from Spain, or the United Kingdom for that matter. The latter two polities each passed through a period of imperial hegemony shortly after the heartlands, Castile and England, effectively absorbed their immediate neighbours. The memory of this, happily now departed, imperial sway has made these states unwilling to relinquish control over what they perceive as peripheral areas of their own territory. That was seen violently in Ireland, and non-violently in Scotland more recently.

But Czechoslovakia had no such imperial history, and could contemplate territorial adjustments with equanimity.

Reminder re Czechoslovakia: It was mostly done by two corrupt politicians (with some backing by their own corrupt parties) who wanted their own power. Most of regular citizens didn't want split. It was done against wishes of populations.

 

[Craig B]

Reminder re Czechoslovakia: It was mostly done by two corrupt politicians (with some backing by their own corrupt parties) who wanted their own power. Most of regular citizens didn't want split. It was done against wishes of populations.

That's part of the difference, I think. In Spain and the UK, when corrupt politicians and parties, (as well as some honest ones, I suppose) want their own power, they try to prevent the country from splitting; they don't encourage it.

 

[Belgian thought]

Some of the arguments from the Independent Parties are truly laughable.

We will still be in the EU - Err... No

Barcelona will still play in La Liga - Err... No


A lot of the supporters are children from non Catalanionan families, youth who witnessed the austerity post 2008.

The stench of a Hitler youth brigade comes to mind.

It is very ugly.

 

[Craig B]

Some of the arguments from the Independent Parties are truly laughable.

We will still be in the EU - Err... No

Barcelona will still play in La Liga - Err... No


A lot of the supporters are children from non Catalanionan families, youth who witnessed the austerity post 2008.

The stench of a Hitler youth brigade comes to mind.

It is very ugly.

I think it is an exaggeration to suggest that Catalan independence movement is a stinking Hitler Youth operation promoted by non-Catalans as a post 2008 development. Such preposterous characterisations weaken rather than strengthen the unionist cause.

In any case, such accusations could be made against the ruling Popular Party in Madrid, of which wiki states

The party has its roots in the People's Alliance founded on 9 October 1976 by former Francoist minister Manuel Fraga. Although Fraga was a member of the reformist faction of the Franco regime, he supported an extremely gradual transition to democracy. However, he badly underestimated the public's distaste for Francoism. Additionally, while he attempted to convey a reformist image, the large number of former Francoists in the party led the public to perceive it as both reactionary and authoritarian.​

Yet it has adapted itself to post-Phalangist democracy and therefore can't simply be denounced as a stinking bunch of fascists.

May I say that separatism in Catalonia predates 2008, and indeed was an element in the politics of the Spanish Republic before the Civil War. See Lluis Companys^WP

 

[Darth Rotor]

What lessons can the Spanish government apply vis a vis their long standing difficulty with the Basque separatists to the Catalonian question? I am hoping that someone from Spain, or who has lived for a long time in Spain, can explain because I quite frankly don't understand Spanish internal politics with the kind of depth that would offer me a hint of an answer.

 

[Stacko]

There's certainly an interesting cluster of influencers on twitter.